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Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    Leo was waffling his hole off on Newstalk re Metro, Dart and Luas.

    Shocking stuff.

    Either master your brief Leo or stay the f**k away from a microphone.

    Jesus wept.:(

    I thought it was a honest discussion tbh. I'm still glad I gave Leo my vote.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    Leo was waffling his hole off on Newstalk re Metro, Dart and Luas.

    Shocking stuff.

    Either master your brief Leo or stay the f**k away from a microphone.

    Jesus wept.:(

    Thats the spirit. Get Angry.:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    mgmt wrote: »
    I thought it was a honest discussion tbh. I'm still glad I gave Leo my vote.

    I'm a fan too and think the guy has serious talent and potential but that interview was appalling.

    He was flapping around for answers to basic questions that he should have anticipated and prepared for in advance.

    Unlike most interviewers, Shane Coleman knows something about Metro and DartU.


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Thats the spirit. Get Angry.:D

    I am very angry, Derek - and not just about Metro and Dart.

    I am going out to buy a dart board and picture of Bertie Ahern to vent some steam:mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    I am very angry, Derek - and not just about Metro and Dart.

    I am going out to buy a dart board and picture of Bertie Ahern to vent some steam:mad:

    I recommend a bottle of Jameson while you're throwing the darts. I shared that anger once re transport. It has mellowed in recent years. All of this carry on was so predictable.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    I recommend a bottle of Jameson while you're throwing the darts. I shared that anger once re transport. It has mellowed in recent years. All of this carry on was so predictable.

    It's the whole mess FF have left behind that angers me. We will be paying a high price for decades to come - and I don't just mean the bank debt.

    What also annoys me is that most people didn't seem to care about the future or give any thought to planning for it - everything was about making a quick buck today and tomorrow be damned.

    I had hoped FG and Lab would learn the lessons - Leo's interview today suggests they haven't yet. I'm prepared to give them a bit more time - but not much, to be honest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    It's the whole mess FF have left behind that angers me. We will be paying a high price for decades to come - and I don't just mean the bank debt.

    What also annoys me is that most people didn't seem to care about the future or give any thought to planning for it - everything was about making a quick buck today and tomorrow be damned.

    I had hoped FG and Lab would learn the lessons - Leo's interview today suggests they haven't yet. I'm prepared to give them a bit more time - but not much, to be honest.

    FG, LAB, FF etc - ALL THE SAME.

    However in defense of the current Government they have absolutely no money to seriously contemplate this considering the usual lack of vision that politicians display.

    The damage was indeed done by the successive FF lead Governments since 1997. If they had been serious about it then it would all be built by now. Even as the money flowed in the creation of a low tax, low sovereign debt, double digit growth economy was their goal. All fueled by a gamble. PPPs were the future. More gambling and we can see that now as current transport budgets in these difficult times have to pay up. Add in a bit of history and you can why I had the confidence to go on national radio and say MN and DU were unlikely to happen. (and that was in 2007 when the country was flying)

    Its all soul destroying watching it happen and even looking at some threads here pick over the bones of whats left to see if we can spend money on a few extra bicycles or car pooling idea. WTF! The greatest opportunity to develop an impressive rail based system in the GDA has been missed and that failure lies at the door of politicians. I wasn't going to bother having a drink tonight, but I've changed my mind!


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    FG, LAB, FF etc - ALL THE SAME.

    However in defense of the current Government they have absolutely no money to seriously contemplate this considering the usual lack of vision that politicians display.

    The damage was indeed done by the successive FF lead Governments since 1997. If they had been serious about it then it would all be built by now. Even as the money flowed in the creation of a low tax, low sovereign debt, double digit growth economy was their goal. All fueled by a gamble. PPPs were the future. More gambling and we can see that now as current transport budgets in these difficult times have to pay up. Add in a bit of history and you can why I had the confidence to go on national radio and say MN and DU were unlikely to happen. (and that was in 2007 when the country was flying)

    Its all soul destroying watching it happen and even looking at some threads here pick over the bones of whats left to see if we can spend money on a few extra bicycles or car pooling idea. WTF! The greatest opportunity to develop an impressive rail based system in the GDA has been missed and that failure lies at the door of politicians. I wasn't going to bother having a drink tonight, but I've changed my mind!

    Uncle Arthur will be my friend tonight too. Slainte - and damn Bertie Ahern and FF to hell.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    Leo was waffling his hole off on Newstalk re Metro, Dart and Luas.

    Shocking stuff.

    Either master your brief Leo or stay the f**k away from a microphone.

    Jesus wept.:(
    mgmt wrote: »
    I thought it was a honest discussion tbh. I'm still glad I gave Leo my vote.

    I was out at the time, but was listening to it in one ear, but to be fair...

    He did not seem to be waffling much at all. He said the talk of privatising the project was wrong and that he had been taken up wrong (not sure how true that is). He defended the project a bit and said it was a "great project."

    Sure he could have defended it a bit more, but he was giving fairly realistic answers. Where he was not in a position to say 'yes I'd support it the full way', sure he was waffling. But he can't really make that call.


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    monument wrote: »
    I was out at the time, but was listening to it in one ear, but to be fair...

    He did not seem to be waffling much at all. He said the talk of privatising the project was wrong and that he had been taken up wrong (not sure how true that is). He defended the project a bit and said it was a "great project."

    Sure he could have defended it a bit more, but he was giving fairly realistic answers. Where he was not in a position to say 'yes I'd support it the full way', sure he was waffling. But he can't really make that call.

    He waffled around the privatisation line in the Indo - saying first that the Indo took him up wrong and he was thinking more about funding Metro West this way rather than Metro North. Then said public transport is not a not an attractive option for private sector.

    He waffled about part-building projects bit by bit - one station at a time over a longer period. How in the name of Jaysus can you do that with MN or Dart Underground?

    He waffled about the growth prospects for Dublin and even the need for projects like Metro and Dart.

    He dodged the question about which project was more important - Metro North, Dart Underground and Luas BXD.

    And he waffled around the question about the roads being clear now and why would we need Metro - FFS, there is less traffic now because the economy is in recession. When it recovers, the roads will be clogged again every morning and evening.

    Remember, it was the gridlock of the late-1990s and early-2000s which gave rise to PFC, T21, MN and DU in the first place - before the building boom took hold and FF through everything into construction.

    It was a poor interview from someone who struck me as being unprepared for the questions he was asked. That is not a good start for someone touted as one of the brightest prospects in his party and government.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Well Jack, its not often I'd put a "thanks" after one of your posts, but on this occasion I'd have to because I agree with you whole heartedly. I'm now on the receiving end of a few beers and I hope your PINT OR TWO WENT DOWN EQUALLY WELL.:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    monument wrote: »
    I was out at the time, but was listening to it in one ear, but to be fair...

    He did not seem to be waffling much at all. He said the talk of privatising the project was wrong and that he had been taken up wrong (not sure how true that is). He defended the project a bit and said it was a "great project."

    Sure he could have defended it a bit more, but he was giving fairly realistic answers. Where he was not in a position to say 'yes I'd support it the full way', sure he was waffling. But he can't really make that call.

    It was more of the same old deferral crap. "A couple of months" till we make a decision. A "review".:rolleyes: These guys know the score more than we do. I just want the truth, so we can finally put it all to bed and carry on as a nation who's infrastructure aspirations amount to know more than "keeping what we have going".

    Very much like it always was.:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,822 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    He waffled about part-building projects bit by bit - one station at a time over a longer period. How in the name of Jaysus can you do that with MN or Dart Underground?

    Did Coleman nail him over that bs?


  • Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭lods


    So much for familiarising himself with his brief . :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Did Coleman nail him over that bs?

    Nope. Went on to ask him about his 'not another cent into the banks' soundbite before the election and the moment was lost.

    Leo V repeated that same BS this morning at a Construction Capital Spend Conference this morning in Dun Laoighaire and then again at the guage test on the Citywest Luas.

    Here's what he said:
    http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=303

    “I see the need to continue to invest in transport projects, public transport in particular, to create construction jobs in the short term, but more importantly in the long-term. This will improve our competitiveness and create jobs across the economy as a result.

    “It is estimated that 15,000 jobs are created for every €1 billion invested in capital projects, and that the economic return for every €1 invested can be as much as €2 or even €2.50.

    “I have already directed that funds not used by the NRA on new projects this year should be identified and diverted to repairing badly damaged secondary national, regional and local roads. These measures will result in hundreds of contracts, mainly for small, local firms this year. And they will boost confidence locally.

    “As part of the Government’s Comprehensive Spending Review, there will be a comprehensive review of capital spending with a view to developing a new National Development Plan for 2012-18 as promised in the Programme for Government. That work will begin in the coming weeks. When it is agreed by Cabinet it will give certainty to the industry and agencies about which projects are going ahead in the next six years and which are not.

    “I get the impression that the last government was unwilling to make decisions in the dying days of its administration. Planning, public consultation and preliminary works on major transport projects such as Metro North, Metro West, Luas BXD, Luas F, DART Underground and major road projects have continued, but funding has not been identified and timelines for construction are uncertain.

    “I am ambitious about infrastructure. And I would like to see all these projects go ahead. Metro North and DART Underground perform well in cost-benefit analyses and they are exactly the kind of projects that I want to see in our capital city, my home town and the city that I love. The same applies to major road projects across the country like the Atlantic Corridor and the by-passes proposed for our towns.

    “But we cannot go on planning for projects without being able to fund them. We need to articulate a realistic, affordable and funded capital programme for Transport and we need to get on with it. And that is what we intend to do.

    Certainly, I would like to see at least one major rail or light-rail project commence soon, perhaps on an incremental basis, whether it’s Metro North, Luas BXD or Dart Underground. I am keen to study what options exist in relation to Bus Rapid Transit for suburban parts of Dublin. I want to be clear that no decisions have been taken to date, either by me or the Cabinet, and all options will be considered.”

    Of the three projects he mentioned there, guess which one the govt is likely to plump for, IMHO?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 ✭✭✭OurLadyofKnock


    I am keen to study what options exist in relation to Bus Rapid Transit for suburban parts of Dublin.


    Translation: "Hand me that last nail so I can shut this coffin for good."


    You get what you voted for.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    It would not be a very honest review if they were not, you know, err... not reviewing the options.

    If he was to come to conclusions before the review is finished, never mind reading the review, all the people calling for different options would get as equally as mad as people here. The difference is that those people are lobbying ministers (or are ministers) and could lobby more to make sure ministers vote their way.

    As well as things like funding... There's lots of politics and lobbying going on behind closed doors here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    BRT works in North American cities with wide straight arterials where you can make two lanes by taking away a median and/or a boulevard grass strip but not enough development along them to pull in LRT scale demand, or where you have a scatter of demand points at the ends where the buses leave the Right Of Way to branch routes.

    Dublin's rather haphazard road network makes it difficult to establish a route well separated over its length (and don't forget wider bits for stops and passing areas to allow express/local or going around disabled vehicles), plus you have to lean on the Roads Dept to give signal priority which they won't want to.

    It's difficult to make these sympathetic to the surroundings if your aim is to spend as little as possible - the Ottawa Transitway is wall to wall concrete, woeful looking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Leo's comment about building systems one stop at a time would be ok if we were talking about extending an existing core base, but in reality we need to deliver DU and MN in one go. A station at a time expansion from that core base would be ok and not at all unusual but without that core base we'd be waiting decades to get even one line complete.

    Ireland really is a depressing place. Things are picking up here in Berlin, you can feel it, more jobs, better paying jobs etc. and the infrastructure is all built already. As Derek said, we had the dosh to get these 2 big projects delivered but we blew it, meanwhile the European economy is carrying on. Ireland's export economy is strong at present too, but it's being crippled by excessive government spending.

    BRT will do nothing for Dublin really, most routes on which BRT could be realistically implemented already are QBCs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭bg07


    Berlin has a good example of rail line being built in stages as perhaps Leo is suggesting. The partial opening of the U55 in the city is a case of bureaucracy gone mad and a warning that even if DU or MN go to site there is no guarantee that they will be finished. If the Germans can go astray on an underground project what chance is there for a bankrupt Ireland?

    Murphaph you would probably know, has work on finishing the U55 restarted yet?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    ABP gave an excuse for phased implementation of MN (CBD-Ballymun-M50) once they demanded the relocation of the yard south of Swords-DUB.

    Phased implementation of DU only works if you come around through Docklands/Pearse/StSG rather than east from Inchicore, because any electrification of Kildare Route requires a Heuston side electric yard immediately, whereas a Northern Line extension could use Fairview trains, freeing up terminal capacity in Connolly and with a shared pool of trains and drivers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    bg07 wrote: »
    Berlin has a good example of rail line being built in stages as perhaps Leo is suggesting. The partial opening of the U55 in the city is a case of bureaucracy gone mad and a warning that even if DU or MN go to site there is no guarantee that they will be finished. If the Germans can go astray on an underground project what chance is there for a bankrupt Ireland?

    Murphaph you would probably know, has work on finishing the U55 restarted yet?
    Yes, but it's really the U5 project which will take years to complete but will be completed. Only the short bit (shortest underground line in Germany, 3 stops total) is called the U55 and as soon as it meets the existing U5 it will lose the extra '5'. The whole story of the U55 is indeed a strange one, but luckily in a city with such a comprehensive network, it can be looked upon as a bit of a joke.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    He waffled about part-building projects bit by bit - one station at a time over a longer period. How in the name of Jaysus can you do that with MN or Dart Underground?

    I doubt if he was waffling. This kind of thing happens all the time, with gradual extensions of underground lines out towards the suburbs. Many cities have done, or are doing, projects like that.

    Oddly enough, one city which actually did what he was suggesting, and slap bang in the centre to boot, was Ireland's current bugbear: Frankfurt.

    The city has a population and population density in or around that of Dublin. The population is a bit more than that of the Dublin City Council area, though the density is lower. It's flanked by a number of other cities in a conurbation which, taken together with Frankfurt, would overall have a considerably larger population than that of County Dublin, though not an appreciably greater area.

    In Frankfurt, the largest public transport infrastructure project was the creation of a tunnel linking commuter lines into the city from the North and West with those from the South and East.

    This was done in a number of stages: an initial 3-station underground line (opened in 1978) bringing lines from the North and West closer to the city centre; a later extension deeper into the city; a further extension which added 2 new underground stations and the breakthrough to the other side of the city; and a final step which added extra underground stations and brought the lines from the East into the mix (opened in 1992).

    Interestingly, construction was carried out in such a way that extra lines were built on the approach to the initial city centre (underground) termini so that the tunnel could be used to something approaching its full capacity right from the very beginning. Although they are no longer needed by the S-Bahn, because of the breakthrough across the city, these extra lines are now used to this day as an important part of Frankfurt's U-Bahn network.

    I can't say that LV is right that this could be the right approach for Dublin, but he's not coming up with anything new in suggesting it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,822 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    I doubt if he was waffling. This kind of thing happens all the time, with gradual extensions of underground lines out towards the suburbs. Many cities have done, or are doing, projects like that.

    Sure it's happened in Dublin with the Luas network, however I can't see how DU or MN can be done bit by bit. :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Sure it's happened in Dublin with the Luas network, however I can't see how DU or MN can be done bit by bit. :confused:

    They can't. So we may get yet another bit by bit Luas.:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭IngazZagni


    Hopefully a yes or no decision will be made soon and I have my fingers crossed that it's a yes.

    If it's a no then Luas BXD needs to be prioritised and started immediately and maybe even if it's a yes too. BXD should be a lot cheaper to build and will provide that important connection.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,822 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    IngazZagni wrote: »
    If it's a no then Luas BXD needs to be prioritised and started immediately and maybe even if it's a yes too. BXD should be a lot cheaper to build and will provide that important connection.

    I think that's what everyone is expecting at this stage.

    Merely getting a bit of Luas that should have been built by 2004.

    Maybe, just maybe, the electricification of the Maynooth line too.


    :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭lods


    Only one of 'big three' transport projects to go ahead, says Minister

    TIM O'BRIEN

    Fri, Apr 08, 2011

    JUST ONE of the “big three” transport projects – Metro North, Dart Underground and the Luas interconnector – will go ahead in the next five years, Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar said yesterday.

    Speaking as he attended a tram test on the Citywest Luas extension in west Dublin, Mr Varadkar said he was determined one project would go ahead but there would be no money for the other two.

    Mr Varadkar said a decision on which projects would proceed would not be made before September, the deadline for his review of all capital spending by his department.

    All three projects were among key Transport 21 initiatives announced in 2005. But yesterday Mr Varadkar said Transport 21 was based on different assumptions. It was based on an economy that was awash with cash and a city that was growing dramatically. “We are not awash with cash anymore and our city is not growing any more,” he said.

    Mr Varadkar said the two runner-up projects would be progressed to “railway order” status, in effect planning permission for the projects, and then mothballed until the State had the money to progress them further.

    While a “strong case” could be made for Metro North, he added: “The question the Government has to answer between now and September is, first of all, do we have the exchequer funding to pay for the exchequer part of it, and is the private funding going to be available.”

    He said all three projects were to be assessed against a number of criteria: “first of all the availability of finance; secondly the cost benefit analyses, which are done already for two of the projects; and things like the impact on customers.” He also said the review would look at “which one would benefit the most people, which one is likely to cover its costs, and which one is the best in terms of emissions for climate change – but that is the whole point of having the review,” he said.

    He had already directed that “funds not used by the NRA this year” should be used to repair secondary, regional and local roads, in a move that would result in “hundreds of contracts mainly for small, local firms this year”, he said

    Work will also begin in coming weeks on a new national development plan 2012-2018, a move that was promised in the programme for government.

    Mr Varadkar declined to say which of the big three projects was his preferred choice, in advance of the review. But he said nobody could doubt the case for Metro North.

    “It really is excellent. It is not just a train line to the airport – it goes to Swords, it links up the Maynooth-Connolly line, it links up the Luas, it serves DCU, it serves the Mater.”

    However, Fianna Fáil Senator Darragh O’Brien accused Mr Varadkar of making “the wrong call” in not approving enabling works for Metro North and including it in the review. “To facilitate construction utilities, pipes and telecommunications running under O’Connell Street need to be moved.” He said it was important this happen now.

    The Luas extension Mr Varadkar was inspecting is due to open in July. The 4.2km track will leave the existing Red Line at Belgard and serve stops located at Fettercairn, Cheeverstown, Citywest, Fortunestown and Saggart.

    The extension is expected to attract some two million passenger journeys each year from the west Tallaght area. The cost of the extension is €150 million and the journey time to the city centre is expected to be 55 minutes.

    The new service will offer a tram every 10 minutes at peak, while the frequency on the Tallaght branch is to be every six minutes.

    © 2011 The Irish Times
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0408/1224294220939_pf.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    I'm assuming the "Luas Interconnector" is the line through city centre connecting Green and Red together. Given that this is probably the cheapest of the three options what's the odds it will get the nod? :rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭lods


    dubhthach wrote: »
    I'm assuming the "Luas Interconnector" is the line through city centre connecting Green and Red together. Given that this is probably the cheapest of the three options what's the odds it will get the nod? :rolleyes:

    Sounds like its being renamed and built up to be something its not.:rolleyes:


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