A5 - Derry Dual Carraigeway

spacetweek · 16-03-2021 11:35pm

It's also hard to see how Newbuildings-Strabane makes no sense on its own when it's a part of the Dublin-Derry corridor. Granted that Dublin-Donegal journeys won't use it.

B'gawley-Augh is admittedly low on the priority list as it's so low-traffic.

Charles Babbage · 17-03-2021 1:06am

spacetweek wrote: »

It's also hard to see how Newbuildings-Strabane makes no sense on its own when it's a part of the Dublin-Derry corridor. Granted that Dublin-Donegal journeys won't use it.

Newbuildings-Strabane is crap for a 21st century trunk road.

Augnacloy will be last, but the central part of major routes also need to reach certain standard although traffic is less there.

I did think though that the Dublin funding might be been used for a new Foyle bridge and new route toward the city side on the West Bank, as the railway had done.

Paulwilky · 17-03-2021 10:35am

spacetweek wrote: »

It's also hard to see how Newbuildings-Strabane makes no sense on its own when it's a part of the Dublin-Derry corridor. Granted that Dublin-Donegal journeys won't use it.

B'gawley-Augh is admittedly low on the priority list as it's so low-traffic.

You are forgetting about Inishowen! All this traffic needs to go through Derry.

Pete_Cavan · 17-03-2021 12:00pm

They should push ahead with Omagh-Strabane on its own if it has a stronger case. Hopefully on our side of the border Lifford-Letterkenny and the N2 schemes get delivered without major issues. If all that were happening, something would have to be done between the border and Omagh.

18-03-2021 11:28am

They actually make things down here look efficient. If they followed that report they won't be building anything resembling a road for the next 10 years.

18-03-2021 11:31am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

They should push ahead with Omagh-Strabane on its own if it has a stronger case. Hopefully on our side of the border Lifford-Letterkenny and the N2 schemes get delivered without major issues. If all that were happening, something would have to be done between the border and Omagh.

i expect there has been lots of influences subjected on this report, mainly try and keep infrastructure spending as close to Belfast as possible and certainly do not spend it in the west of the statelet.

serfboard · 18-03-2021 3:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

They actually make things down here look efficient.

The omnishambles that is the M20 here would beg to differ ... And now we have a Minister openly hostile to it.

Cookiemunster · 18-03-2021 3:39pm

serfboard wrote: »

The omnishambles that is the M20 here would beg to differ ... And now we have a Minister openly hostile to it.

I wouldn't call the M20 an onmishambles. It originally got cancelled due to the recession. When it got reactivated it had to start from scratch due to changes in European law meaning that the original project couldn't be reused. Since reactivation it's been slow, but has moved along smoothly through the different stages.

Ryan won't stop it getting to ABP and won't be in government when time comes for it to be built.

It's got nothing on what's going on with the A5.

Kevtherev1 · 18-03-2021 3:53pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

They should push ahead with Omagh-Strabane on its own if it has a stronger case. Hopefully on our side of the border Lifford-Letterkenny and the N2 schemes get delivered without major issues. If all that were happening, something would have to be done between the border and Omagh.

Deleted User wrote: »

They actually make things down here look efficient. If they followed that report they won't be building anything resembling a road for the next 10 years.

The Rep of Ireland both N2 schemes and Letterkenny to lifford will be built as they get planning. The northern ireland govt will eventually be embarrassed into improving their backward roads compared to the new roads being completed in Rep of Ireland.

Just like in the 80s and 90s Rep of Ireland was embarrassed into improving our backward roads compared to Northern Ireland/ UK and Europe.

serfboard · 18-03-2021 3:56pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I wouldn't call the M20 an onmishambles. It originally got cancelled due to the recession. When it got reactivated it had to start from scratch due to changes in European law meaning that the original project couldn't be reused. Since reactivation it's been slow, but has moved along smoothly through the different stages.

Ryan won't stop it getting to ABP and won't be in government when time comes for it to be built.

It's got nothing on what's going on with the A5.

When it comes to the M20, I differ from you in being pessimistic about its prospects.

I can't drive on the new A5 or the new M20 now, and I don't expect either to be built by the end of the decade.

sob1467 · 18-03-2021 6:13pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Fairly scathing rejection of the A5 plan:

https://twitter.com/niroads/status/1371806968667602951?s=21

This could be dead in the water in its current form

It is quite disappointing that it is the underlying bigotry of a number of staunch land owners in that area are inflicting legal & environmental challenge after challenge. Just in order to preferably cancel or delay what would otherwise be a vital infrastructure corridor between Dublin & the North West of the Republic and the West of Northern Ireland.

The never-ending underlying bigotry of some of the people in those parts is disgusting.

MJohnston · 19-03-2021 9:56am

Great blog post by Wesley Johnston on the A5:
https://wesleyjohnston.wordpress.com/2021/03/18/lessons-from-history-for-the-a5-wtc/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

I too, would like to see this broken up into separate schemes, and for the Omagh to Strabane stretch to proceed.

riddlinrussell · 19-03-2021 10:22am

MJohnston wrote: »

Great blog post by Wesley Johnston on the A5:
https://wesleyjohnston.wordpress.com/2021/03/18/lessons-from-history-for-the-a5-wtc/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

I too, would like to see this broken up into separate schemes, and for the Omagh to Strabane stretch to proceed.

Particularly interesting was the comments on the Ballygawley to Aughnacloy section, estimated 12% of road capacity is just unjustifiable for a Dual carriageway, it being included does make the whole thing seem political as a 'connection to the south', especially as its not going to continue on to a dual route in the south. A reorganisation of the scheme turning that stretch into a modern, high quality single route would be much more beneficial and minimise the risk of scuppering the whole project.

KrisW1001 · 19-03-2021 1:12pm

N2 Clontibret to Border will be constructed as a Type 2 DC.

I think Aughnacloy-Ballygalway could end up as a bottleneck on what would end up as the main Dublin-Letterkenny/Derry route once completed.

riddlinrussell · 19-03-2021 1:24pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

N2 Clontibret to Border will be constructed as a Type 2 DC.

I think Aughnacloy-Ballygalway could end up as a bottleneck on what would end up as the main Dublin-Letterkenny/Derry route once completed.

I'd say you might be correct in the long term, but at present that stretch in particular is absolutely killing this project even purely from a cost-benefit perspective. Wesleys main thrust in the article is that the rigid approach of "All-or-Nothing" will only serve to further delay a scheme that is becoming increasingly polarised.

KrisW1001 · 19-03-2021 3:17pm

I tend to agree with Wesley - the problem is that making the A5 upgrade an "all-or-nothing" bundle, rather than a roadmap of improvements is what's killing things. I think most people would put up with a short bottleneck if it was the price of upgrading the much longer Ballygalway-Omagh-Strabane stretch.

I think this bundling may have been done by the NI Roads Service in an attempt to maximise the chance of getting part-funding from the Republic, as the Ballygalway to border section is really of no use to anyone except Southerners.

lucernarian · 23-03-2021 1:36am

KrisW1001 wrote: »

I tend to agree with Wesley - the problem is that making the A5 upgrade an "all-or-nothing" bundle, rather than a roadmap of improvements is what's killing things. I think most people would put up with a short bottleneck if it was the price of upgrading the much longer Ballygalway-Omagh-Strabane stretch.

I think this bundling may have been done by the NI Roads Service in an attempt to maximise the chance of getting part-funding from the Republic, as the Ballygalway to border section is really of no use to anyone except Southerners.

If that conclusion is true for the A5 at aughnacloy, I struggle to understand how we could simultaneously justify a dual carriageway immediately below that location, at least north of Monaghan.

I thought some local bypass of aughnacloy could be considered though...

riddlinrussell · 23-03-2021 10:31am

lucernarian wrote: »

If that conclusion is true for the A5 at aughnacloy, I struggle to understand how we could simultaneously justify a dual carriageway immediately below that location, at least north of Monaghan.

I thought some local bypass of aughnacloy could be considered though...

A local bypass of Aughnacloy is difficult to do if the long term commitment is still to dualling all the way from Derry to Dublin from both sides. Either you build a good quality single carriageway bypass for the road you have, and make dualling more challenging going forward, or you build a hugely overspec dual carriageway bypass orphaned with long stretches of single either side.

That's before getting into the technical aspects of construction around Aughnacloy, which I don't know, but there may only be a single really 'viable' route so you only get one real option for doing it.

MJohnston · 23-03-2021 11:04am

See, I still maintain that positioning the A5 as a "Dublin to Derry" main route gives the whole project a really flawed business case.

The A6 upgrade will be finished in under a year, and once that is done, it will offer a 213km journey from junction 14 of the RoI M1 to the Altnagelvin Roundabout in Derry. Nearly 200km of that journey will be on high quality dual carriageway or motorways. The other 13km over the Glenshane Pass is alternating 2+1.

The current N2/A5 route from the same junction 14 to the same Derry roundabout is about 169km. However the vast majority of this existing route is either single carriageway or, at best, alternating 2+1.

So we're talking about an extra 44km on the A6, but likely at full motorway speeds for the majority of the journey, compared to a shorter journey with slower average speeds with unpredictable interruptions. Even if the N2 and A5 upgrades could shave another 10 to 15km off of that route, I'm still not sure I'd call that a compelling business case*.

Where the A5 upgrade makes most sense is a "Dublin to Letterkenny" artery, which is why it's become such a political football in The North. Here you currently have 165km on the A5 from J14 to the N13/14 roundabout, compared to 240km via the A6.

IMO, most critical to making the A5 into a viable route for this journey is bypassing the big bottlenecks in Monaghan, Omagh, and Strabane.

MJohnston · 23-03-2021 11:18am

MJohnston wrote: »

See, I still maintain that positioning the A5 as a "Dublin to Derry" main route gives the whole project a really flawed business case.

The A6 upgrade will be finished in under a year, and once that is done, it will offer a 213km journey from junction 14 of the RoI M1 to the Altnagelvin Roundabout in Derry. Nearly 200km of that journey will be on high quality dual carriageway or motorways. The other 13km over the Glenshane Pass is alternating 2+1.

The current N2/A5 route from the same junction 14 to the same Derry roundabout is about 169km. However the vast majority of this existing route is either single carriageway or, at best, alternating 2+1.

So we're talking about an extra 44km on the A6, but likely at full motorway speeds for the majority of the journey, compared to a shorter journey with slower average speeds with unpredictable interruptions. Even if the N2 and A5 upgrades could shave another 10 to 15km off of that route, I'm still not sure I'd call that a compelling business case*.

Where the A5 upgrade makes most sense is a "Dublin to Letterkenny" artery, which is why it's become such a political football in The North. Here you currently have 165km on the A5 from J14 to the N13/14 roundabout, compared to 240km via the A6.

IMO, most critical to making the A5 into a viable route for this journey is bypassing the big bottlenecks in Monaghan, Omagh, and Strabane.

The asterisk I meant to add here was:
It's a minor note, but the A5 is a terrible route if you're driving an electric car, due to the sparsity of chargers. The A6, by comparison, is much better served.

KrisW1001 · 23-03-2021 11:36am

lucernarian wrote: »

If that conclusion is true for the A5 at aughnacloy, I struggle to understand how we could simultaneously justify a dual carriageway immediately below that location, at least north of Monaghan.

I thought some local bypass of aughnacloy could be considered though...

The road in Monaghan is justified because it's a section of the main route between Dublin and Derry/Letterkenny (there are similarly low-trafficked sections of M18 through Clare, but we didn't downgrade them to a single-carriageway road just because nobody lives near there). The Aughnacloy section would be justified for dualling too for the same reason.

However, if you look at the scheme only in terms of serving places that are within Northern Ireland , then it's hard to see why you'd upgrade that southernmost section at all, as it serves "nowhere much".

This is the reason why the Republic is part-funding the A5 scheme in the first place: there is not enough economic justification for it unless you consider it as a through-route for Dublin to Donegal.

circadian · 23-03-2021 1:08pm

MJohnston wrote: »

See, I still maintain that positioning the A5 as a "Dublin to Derry" main route gives the whole project a really flawed business case.

The A6 upgrade will be finished in under a year, and once that is done, it will offer a 213km journey from junction 14 of the RoI M1 to the Altnagelvin Roundabout in Derry. Nearly 200km of that journey will be on high quality dual carriageway or motorways. The other 13km over the Glenshane Pass is alternating 2+1.

The current N2/A5 route from the same junction 14 to the same Derry roundabout is about 169km. However the vast majority of this existing route is either single carriageway or, at best, alternating 2+1.

So we're talking about an extra 44km on the A6, but likely at full motorway speeds for the majority of the journey, compared to a shorter journey with slower average speeds with unpredictable interruptions. Even if the N2 and A5 upgrades could shave another 10 to 15km off of that route, I'm still not sure I'd call that a compelling business case*.

Where the A5 upgrade makes most sense is a "Dublin to Letterkenny" artery, which is why it's become such a political football in The North. Here you currently have 165km on the A5 from J14 to the N13/14 roundabout, compared to 240km via the A6.

IMO, most critical to making the A5 into a viable route for this journey is bypassing the big bottlenecks in Monaghan, Omagh, and Strabane.

Depending on what day/time I'm leaving at I'll take either route to/from Derry/Dublin.

Personally, I think the A5 is required because taking the route via the A6 means using some roads in the north that I'd consider poorer quality than they should be. Sections of the A1 are outright dangerous with level crossings and national speed limits. The quality of the M1 and even moreso, M2 is degrading and of a standard much lower than that of motorways in the Republic. The sliproads are astoundingly short in some areas and this leaves people merging onto these motorways entering at lower speeds than what I'd be comfortable with.

The A6 dualling is of great quality though and I've enjoyed that stretch any time I've driven it. However, for connectivity with Derry/Letterkenny it really does make sense to upgrade the N2/A5 corridor as it completely rules out the risk of congestion in Belfast.

riddlinrussell · 23-03-2021 1:16pm

circadian wrote: »

Depending on what day/time I'm leaving at I'll take either route to/from Derry/Dublin.

Personally, I think the A5 is required because taking the route via the A6 means using some roads in the north that I'd consider poorer quality than they should be. Sections of the A1 are outright dangerous with level crossings and national speed limits. The quality of the M1 and even moreso, M2 is degrading and of a standard much lower than that of motorways in the Republic. The sliproads are astoundingly short in some areas and this leaves people merging onto these motorways entering at lower speeds than what I'd be comfortable with.

The A6 dualling is of great quality though and I've enjoyed that stretch any time I've driven it. However, for connectivity with Derry/Letterkenny it really does make sense to upgrade the N2/A5 corridor as it completely rules out the risk of congestion in Belfast.

There is always going to be a political aspect here also, it is disingenuous to try and ignore it and claim that the fundamentals of the route make it unviable, from Sligo around to Colerane is a gigantic region of Ireland to not be served by a good quality dedicated north-south route and its been a political football since at least the first motorways were built in the 60s/70s.

The M1/A1/M1/M2/M22/A6 route is definitely not without deficiencies anyway and politically simply wont fly for this region.

MJohnston · 23-03-2021 2:03pm

circadian wrote: »

Depending on what day/time I'm leaving at I'll take either route to/from Derry/Dublin.

Personally, I think the A5 is required because taking the route via the A6 means using some roads in the north that I'd consider poorer quality than they should be. Sections of the A1 are outright dangerous with level crossings and national speed limits. The quality of the M1 and even moreso, M2 is degrading and of a standard much lower than that of motorways in the Republic. The sliproads are astoundingly short in some areas and this leaves people merging onto these motorways entering at lower speeds than what I'd be comfortable with.

The A6 dualling is of great quality though and I've enjoyed that stretch any time I've driven it. However, for connectivity with Derry/Letterkenny it really does make sense to upgrade the N2/A5 corridor as it completely rules out the risk of congestion in Belfast.

Like I said, I just don't think the business case of N2/A5 as a Dublin-Derry route makes sense, I think it's a good choice for Dublin-Letterkenny/Donegal.

Though, I do wonder if this was an all-island situation whether the A29 would be a better upgrade target than the A5.

Just to note, the A1 will be fully grade-separated by 2023: http://wesleyjohnston.com/roads/a1gradesepfinal4.html

The only low quality bits left after that, imo, will be the Westlink and the Hillsborough Roundabout.

BelfastVanMan · 23-03-2021 3:30pm

The only low quality bits left after that, imo, will be the Westlink and the Hillsborough Roundabout.[/quote]

And from Loughbrickland to Beech Hill, of course.

MJohnston · 23-03-2021 3:42pm

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

And from Loughbrickland to Beech Hill, of course.

I wouldn't call that low quality tbf — the crossings are obviously non-desirable, but they do at least occur mostly at places of high visibility.

Pretty sure a couple of them could just be closed and there would be an instant upgrade — the northern junction at Loughbrickland, for example just absolutely does not need to be there.

KrisW1001 · 23-03-2021 5:14pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Like I said, I just don't think the business case of N2/A5 as a Dublin-Derry route makes sense, I think it's a good choice for Dublin-Letterkenny/Donegal.

Though, I do wonder if this was an all-island situation whether the A29 would be a better upgrade target than the A5.

"All-island" doesn't mean the same thing as "United Ireland". A29 would really only offer a better Dublin to Derry route, but as Derry is not a destination within the Republic of Ireland, it is not the job of the Republic's transport budget to facilitate improvements to the road network to and from Derry, especially when such a plan would still leave Donegal poorly connected to the rest of the Republic. A5 allows connection to the Republic's network at Strabane, which is much more useful for the people of Donegal trying to get to different parts of their own country.

It may have been dressed up in "Cross-border friendship" blather, but the Republic's primary reason for offering even a cent towards an upgrade of the A5 is so that the NI Roads Service will prioritise improvents to a road that connects Dublin with northern Donegal (particularly Lifford and Letterkenny). A better route between Dublin and Derry is a side-effect of the Republic's involvement with A5 but it is not, and never was, the main reason for the funding contribution.

bennyineire · 13-04-2021 11:21am

KrisW1001 wrote: »

"All-island" doesn't mean the same thing as "United Ireland". A29 would really only offer a better Dublin to Derry route, but as Derry is not a destination within the Republic of Ireland, it is not the job of the Republic's transport budget to facilitate improvements to the road network to and from Derry, especially when such a plan would still leave Donegal poorly connected to the rest of the Republic. A5 allows connection to the Republic's network at Strabane, which is much more useful for the people of Donegal trying to get to different parts of their own country.

It may have been dressed up in "Cross-border friendship" blather, but the Republic's primary reason for offering even a cent towards an upgrade of the A5 is so that the NI Roads Service will prioritise improvents to a road that connects Dublin with northern Donegal (particularly Lifford and Letterkenny). A better route between Dublin and Derry is a side-effect of the Republic's involvement with A5 but it is not, and never was, the main reason for the funding contribution.

Can it not be both at the same time, you are very "black and white" on the justification

MJohnston · 13-04-2021 11:38am

KrisW1001 wrote: »

A better route between Dublin and Derry is a side-effect of the Republic's involvement with A5 but it is not, and never was, the main reason for the funding contribution.

Exactly! Which is why it is fairly egregious that the NI authorities choose to prioritise the section of the A5 between Strabane and Derry, which offers close to zero value to the people of the Republic of Ireland.

It's also a bit ridiculous that nobody in the ROI government challenged this approach.

riddlinrussell · 13-04-2021 11:48am

bennyineire wrote: »

Can it not be both at the same time, you are very "black and white" on the justification

Indeed, it misses the concept that many in east Donegal will still work in Derry itself, if Derry is better connected it makes Donegal more prosperous by itself by offering more opportunities to residents. That said, the A5 corridor is the obvious choice to benefit the region. I think a good hard look should be taken at restoring the Portadown to Derry rail line as part of the new north-south rail review, that is an absolute no brainer of a line to bring back into service and would take away one of the tentpoles of the 'Alternative' A5 Alliance arguments.

MJohnston wrote: »

Exactly! Which is why it is fairly egregious that the NI authorities choose to prioritise the section of the A5 between Strabane and Derry, which offers close to zero value to the people of the Republic of Ireland.

It's also a bit ridiculous that nobody in the ROI government challenged this approach.

It would benefit any people working in Derry that live in Lifford surely?

A5 - Derry Dual Carraigeway

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