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I have a taste of pizza in my mouth only I haven't had a pizza in a year..

  • 27-08-2009 3:11pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭


    Anyhu, that got me thinking?

    Would a presentday newborn child believe in God(s) by default, or does someone have to instruct him/her about him/her/it/them?

    I think the answer is no.


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I think if there was no mention of anything theistic in a child's life it would still be possible for them to believe there was something "else" than that which we see & use it to give them an answer to the big questions. I don't think anyone is born with that belief though, no.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    A newborn child cannot grasp concepts like deities.

    I assume you're really referring to a hypothetical child that grows up alone on somewhere like a desert island? I'd imagine such a child will come up with their own gods/supernatural explanations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Well of course not.

    However, some interesting studies have suggested that we're hardwired to a certain extent to explain the world around us, even if those explanations aren't necessarily based on any specific evidence. Rather we'll use observational evidence to construct some sort of causal/purposeful theory behind.

    So in this way, we know that when we see dark clouds, it's going to rain because most of the time when we see dark clouds, it rains. Therefore, dark clouds cause rain.

    This then causes us to extrapolate and believe that there is some purpose behind everything such as
    "Why are there clouds?"
    "So it will rain"
    "Why does it rain?"
    "To give us water"

    And so forth. It's a natural consequence of a human-centric universe that one would naturally think that a natural process occurs in order to provide them with some end result (or to form part of a chain which provides the person with an end result).

    There was an interesting article in New Scientist a few months back.

    But as to whether we would believe in one God/3 Gods/Jesus Christ/Jahweh without external influences, well of course we wouldn't. Everyone would construct their own theories in their head.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    This is where the concepts of implicit and explicit atheism show their worth. I, as an adult capable of reason, have concluded that belief in a God is irrational. I am an explicit atheist. A baby, as an infant incapable of reason, does not possess belief in God. It is an implicit atheist. An infant growing up on an island all on it's own would still possess our inherent desire for answers, bias towards agency and would lack rigorous scepticism. As such he/she would almost certainly invent their own Gods soon enough. It could be an all powerful Judeo-Christian type God, but then again he might end up begging a particularly large tree for mercy when a storm hits.

    Also that in an extremely bizarre thread title.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    Dades wrote: »
    A newborn child cannot grasp concepts like deities.

    A newborn child can't even grasp the concept of individuality. Sometime before 6 to 18 months a newborn child will not even have the capacity to recognize that it is seeing itself in a mirror.

    There's a simple test for this. Hold a favorite toy of the babies above it's head and hold them in front of a mirror. A baby that has not attained the ability to identify itself yet will reach for the toy in the mirror and not above it's own head.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    There's a simple test for this. Hold a favorite toy of the babies above it's head and hold them in front of a mirror. A baby that has not attained the ability to identify itself yet will reach for the toy in the mirror and not above it's own head.
    Gonna try that one later! (On the baba - not myself.)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    My son used to spend hours crawling round behind a mirror to look for the other baby. :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Anyhu, that got me thinking?

    Would a presentday newborn child believe in God(s) by default, or does someone have to instruct him/her about him/her/it/them?

    I think the answer is no.

    Children believing in human like agents in nature by default

    If you left a group of children to grow up on a desert island they would invent their own "gods" (for want of a better term).

    This is a natural instinct for humans, and explains why religion seems so pleasing and sensible to a lot of people

    [EDIT] Just saw Seamus had similar but more detailed reply to main


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Shur they are not even meant to know of god untill they are christened, according to the christian churches anyway


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    There's a simple test for this. Hold a favorite toy of the babies above it's head and hold them in front of a mirror. A baby that has not attained the ability to identify itself yet will reach for the toy in the mirror and not above it's own head.

    Surely this has more to do with understanding the concept of a reflective surface than it has to do with a concept of self?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    Zillah wrote: »
    Surely this has more to do with understanding the concept of a reflective surface than it has to do with a concept of self?

    Watch from 3:55 onwards. The test is a little different to the one I outlined but the concept and purpose are the same.

    EDIT: Plus I think understanding the concept of a reflective surface is a little bit more difficult. Sure some adults still don't understand it :D



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭Joe1919


    At the same time, there is something almost child-like in the christian view of God.
    The concept of the christian God is that of a very powerful, intelligent, jealous and revengful parent and we are suppose to be the children.

    This parent knows and can do all, can give or not give and will be vengeful and punish, especially if we disrespect or show an interest in another parent.(The christian God is a jealous God and demands absolute loyalty).

    This God can give comfort in the same way as a parent can, but it could be argued that this 'comfort' is more like a babies 'dummy' i.e. it can comfort but it will not feed us and hence has only a psychological value.

    I think its easy to see where the idea of 'God' can come from.(IMO).


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