Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Shannon supplying water to Dublin?

Options
1246

Comments

  • Options
    #92
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    The level of incompetence in this country is simply mind boggling. Between leaking pipes, led in the water, cryptosporidium, and they're trying to bring in water charges.


  • Options
    #93
    paulm17781
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    liammur wrote: »
    The level of incompetence in this country is simply mind boggling. .

    A lot of that can be put down to NIMBYism and rural counties claiming they all deserve the same as urban areas. Both of these contribute to no progress being made anywhere as the money gets spread to thinly and there isn't enough to do things that matter.


  • Options
    #94
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    That may be plausible if we weren't squandering money like there is no tomorrow.


  • Options
    #95
    Lu Tze
    Registered Users Posts: 3,495 ✭✭✭Lu Tze


    liammur wrote: »
    Between leaking pipes, lead in the water, cryptosporidium,

    This is from the supply pipe, they never really made watermains out of lead.

    On that point i wonder how they are going to fund the remedying of what you have outlined above... what could they possibly do to fund the rehabilitation of a service that has thus far been provided for free and hence has no revenue stream...

    Oh yeah
    liammur wrote: »
    and they're trying to bring in water charges.

    The upside of this is in a few years they will be accountable for the quality and consistancy of supply.


  • Options
    #96
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    Good points but wouldn ot necessarily agree re accountability of quality of water, if the state of some roads are anything to go by.



    I buy water and would encourage others to do likewise


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #97
    Lu Tze
    Registered Users Posts: 3,495 ✭✭✭Lu Tze


    Its a product/service you will be paying for by use. It might not happen immediately but there will be a court challenge at some point for paying for water which is not of the standards set for potable water, and if it isn't won in our native courts it will be won in europe.

    That would be my prediction - that and all water treatment works will be privately operated in 15 years.


  • Options
    #98
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    'all water treatment works will be privately operated in 15 years. '

    Agreed, even sooner i would imagine.

    Let's hope they haven't ruined the shannon in the meantime!


  • Options
    #99
    Bluetonic
    Registered Users Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭Bluetonic


    I see the Shannon is flooding the midlands again at the moment.

    Now if only this water could be drained off before it causes damage and stored somewhere for a better use.

    Hmmm.....


  • Options
    #100
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    New != better. Apparently Toronto's cast iron 100 year pipes have a lower failure rate than the "improved" pipes laid from the mid 1950s because it turns out those ones are more susceptible to corrosion. When you're dealing with lifespans of decades, it's tricky to innovate.


  • Options
    #101
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    dowlingm wrote: »
    New != better. Apparently Toronto's cast iron 100 year pipes have a lower failure rate than the "improved" pipes laid from the mid 1950s because it turns out those ones are more susceptible to corrosion. When you're dealing with lifespans of decades, it's tricky to innovate.

    Plastic corrodes slowly.....

    what'r gas mains made from in torono?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #102
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Plastic corrodes slowly.....

    what'r gas mains made from in torono?
    New gas mains are plastic, apparently. The thing is you don't drink gas, and given the concern here about stuff like bisphenol A you'd have to be really sure of your ground to compete with the people who believe everything they read on the interwebs to persuade them that their water was not now fully of polymer molecules.


  • Options
    #103
    Lu Tze
    Registered Users Posts: 3,495 ✭✭✭Lu Tze


    dowlingm wrote: »
    New != better. Apparently Toronto's cast iron 100 year pipes have a lower failure rate than the "improved" pipes laid from the mid 1950s because it turns out those ones are more susceptible to corrosion. When you're dealing with lifespans of decades, it's tricky to innovate.

    I think they are referring here to structural failure. Both pipes are made from the same material, but spun iron wall thickness is much thinner than cast iron, hence it has corroded through.They also mention that the sun iron pipes are laid in a more corrosive soil.

    There is no mention though of how the older pipes are performing hydraulically, with loss of bore, encrustation etc.

    I have seen reports taken on pipe samples in ireland, cast iron laid pre 1900 is some cases that are still structurally ok and have 30+ years to end of life but might have a reduced bore due to encrustation i.e. a 4" diameter pipe might have the internal bore of 1"

    Couldnt find a better example from google images so this will have to do

    figure34.jpg


  • Options
    #104
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    dowlingm wrote: »
    New gas mains are plastic, apparently. The thing is you don't drink gas, and given the concern here about stuff like bisphenol A you'd have to be really sure of your ground to compete with the people who believe everything they read on the interwebs to persuade them that their water was not now fully of polymer molecules.

    Do they not have qualpex piping in Canada?


  • Options
    #105
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,619 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Do they not have qualpex piping in Canada?

    Rigid plastic piping seems to be very much an Irish thing. Qualpex is Irish through and through; UK uses softer Hepworth stuff that even has plastic connectors. And leaks, from experience :mad:


  • Options
    #106
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Do they not have qualpex piping in Canada?
    There is a thing called Ipex which is getting popular, and since you reminded me I looked up their site and see they do some municipal products. I don't know if it's the same thing as qualpex though. It's replacing copper in some household systems especially in pressure balanced systems I've seen in home reno tv shows - if I was doing a whole-house refit I'd definitely consider it.


  • Options
    #107
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Update on this here:
    CALLS TO fast-track the building of a reservoir in Co Offaly to supply drinking water from the river Shannon to Dublin and surrounding counties will be discussed today.

    TDs and Senators on the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Environment will have talks on the plans today in Dublin.

    They will discuss plans to build a reservoir on a 1,500-acre site at Garryhinch, Co Offaly. The location is near the Co Laois town of Portarlington.

    The plans have met with strong resistance from campaigners in the Shannon region.

    The committee members will meet Bord na Móna executives and managing director Gabriel D’Arcy before travelling to Garryhinch tomorrow.

    Bord na Móna says the €480 million development – the first major Irish reservoir to be built in 60 years – would create 1,000 jobs during its three-year construction phase.

    The planned lake will store piped water from Lough Derg before it is moved to Dublin.

    According to Bord na Móna, a number of permanent positions would be created on completion, with plans for a water sports and tourist amenity incorporating a nature reserve around the 800-acre man-made lake.

    The reservoir, which is expected to require 2 per cent of the Shannon’s full capacity flow, would supply water to Dublin, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow and further applications have been made by local authorities in Laois, Offaly and Westmeath.

    Laois-based Labour Senator John Whelan insisted there was a critical need for the Government to sanction the project.

    The construction of more than 500,000 houses in the past decade without any consideration for basic water supply was absurd, Mr Whelan commented.

    “As bizarre as it may seem, Ireland is running out of water, the supply-demand balance is on a knife-edge, and if we don’t take action such as backing the Bord na Móna plan, there will be dire consequences for households, industry, small businesses and farming,” he said.

    However, River Shannon Protection Alliance chairman Martin McEnroe disputed the job figures and claimed the plan would have a negative impact on the entire Shannon region. He said more than 50 per cent of the water supply is lost through leakage and urged the Government to concentrate on repairing existing infrastructure.

    “This is going to stymie development in the Shannon region,” Mr McEnroe claimed.

    “This is all spin. The reality of it is if they interfere with the Shannon they are interfering with a huge ecosystem.”

    Mr McEnroe said the Dublin region would be prioritised above the Shannon region should a drought occur. “They see the midlands as an endless supply of water,” he remarked.

    “You can’t trust politicians – look at Enda Kenny during the hospital issue.”

    Vowing to fight the project, Mr McEnroe said development in the Shannon region would suffer as a result of the planned extraction of water from the Shannon.

    Gerry Siney, of the alliance, said thousands of jobs could be created immediately if Dublin City Council employed people to repair leaking city pipes.

    Alternative sources of water should have been more thoroughly investigated, added Mr Siney, who said: “This is a madcap proposal, it isn’t necessary and it is going to cause damage.”

    Bord na Móna director of strategic infrastructure Colm Ó Gogáin said that the project would have a “negligible” impact on the Shannon.

    Initially the reservoir will supply 250 million litres per day but that figure would rise to 350 million in about 10 years, Mr Ó Gogáin explained.

    He said that there was an “urgency” in relation to water supply. If all went to plan the reservoir would not be completed until 2020 at the earliest, he added.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0719/1224300948011.html


  • Options
    #108
    mgmt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    From the above article:
    However, River Shannon Protection Alliance chairman Martin McEnroe disputed the job figures and claimed the plan would have a negative impact on the entire Shannon region. He said more than 50 per cent of the water supply is lost through leakage and urged the Government to concentrate on repairing existing infrastructure.

    The guy has a valid point. I worked in the Water Department of a Dublin County Council and the amount of wasted manpower was beyond a joke. The vast majority of staff did basically nothing. The Water Supply should be privatised in this country. Bring in people who actually know how to run a water system. The system we have now with 4 Dublin councils hoarding water from each other is nonsense.


  • Options
    #109
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    mgmt wrote: »
    The guy has a valid point. I worked in the Water Department of a Dublin County Council and the amount of wasted manpower was beyond a joke. The vast majority of staff did basically nothing. The Water Supply should be privatised in this country. Bring in people who actually know how to run a water system. The system we have now with 4 Dublin councils hoarding water from each other is nonsense.
    We have 34 local authorities controling our water infrastructure with the result being each council does several small jobs but there is no money for the larger projects that are needed. We need one authority to look after our water infrastructure which would give an economy of scale. I see Bord na Mona want to become the new water company being proposed by the Government. They actually seem quite well run so I think it makes sense to redevelop these guys instead of creating another quango which will probably pick up the bad habits of the others.

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/bord-na-mona-hoping-to-take-control-of-nations-water-supply-2824704.html


  • Options
    #110
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    We are getting a National Water Authority, Gormley started the process early this year. Ye man McEnroe sounds like a complete and utter buffoon. Next month he will be begging for flood defences for Biffos against the Shannon.

    Dublin has the lowest losses in the country, sub 30%. On my boreen it is 85% , the ****ing thing is a sieve.


  • Options
    #111
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    mgmt wrote: »
    From the above article:



    The guy has a valid point. I worked in the Water Department of a Dublin County Council and the amount of wasted manpower was beyond a joke. The vast majority of staff did basically nothing. The Water Supply should be privatised in this country. Bring in people who actually know how to run a water system. The system we have now with 4 Dublin councils hoarding water from each other is nonsense.

    You could say that for most state run authorities tbh, awh well we just have to pay our taxes so that they sit around drinking coffee.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #112
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    I'm assuming the people campaigning against this proposal are the same ones who spent years campaiging to "Drain the Shannon" and likewise complain about yearly flooding?


  • Options
    #113
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    They are lunatics, think Mysterious(ly) :)

    http://www.shannonprotectionalliance.ie/images/12_13RN2007-09-18e1.pdf


  • Options
    #114
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    I came across this in the minutes of the June DCC meeting. It might be of some interest:
    COUNCILLOR CIERAN PERRY
    Can the Manager provide the results of the pilot testing for water leaks carried out by Dublin City Council as quoted by Executive Manager Tom Leahy at the Water Metering Summit? Can the Manager detail the amount of leaks discovered on private properties compared to those discovered on public properties?

    CITY MANAGER’S REPLY:
    Due to the absence of domestic metering there is limited data on leakage associated with domestic dwellings in Ireland. There is information available from the UK which has a comparable climate and plumbing system but limited information or data on the
    Irish experience. In order to address this issue, a pilot was carried out on the Merrion Road South as part of the Dublin Region Watermain Rehabilitation Project. This area was ranked 11th worst performing (in terms of leakage and burst frequency) of over 600 district meter areas in the Dublin Region. All non domestic users (24 in number) were previously metered as part of the non domestic metering programme using AMR technology which allows driveby gathering of meter data. A total of 212 AMR meters
    were placed on all domestic dwellings to identify leakage.

    Every public main was replaced and meter readings confirmed that not a drop of water was being lost on public mains. However when average usage figures were applied to domestic dwellings the Unaccounted for Water (UFW) figure was 19% even though the actual loss on public mains was zero.

    The full report on the study is available on the Council Website and was submitted to the Department of Environment, Community and Local Government to facilitate consideration of new public policy to address leakage. The initial findings were quite incredible with the three highest usage recorded as 35,309 litres/day (equivalent to water used by 80 houses), 21,506 litres/day (equivalent to 50 houses) and 13,880 litres/day (equivalent to 30 houses) respectively. In summary, three houses had recorded use equivalent to 160 Houses in an area with 212 dwellings. These leaks were between the road and the house and were repaired by householders. The key findings, which appear to be consistent with other data, are that there was excessive use on up to 6% of dwellings with a small number quoting astronomical use.

    After repairs by householders, usage per property is higher in this area than assumed, being 597 Litres/House/Day as opposed to an assumed 450 Litres/Property/Day and customer side leakage was measured at 135 Litres/Property/day compared to assumed figure of 66 Litres/Property/day. This study will provide invaluable input into the debate on the new public policy for water conservation being discussed at central Government.

    There are no figures for the amount of water lost before the public mains were repaired but it shows that the problem isn't just with the local authorities. It also shows that when water meters come along, some people are going to face both expensive water bills and expensive repair bills very suddenly.


  • Options
    #115
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    markpb wrote: »
    I came across this in the minutes of the June DCC meeting. It might be of some interest:



    There are no figures for the amount of water lost before the public mains were repaired but it shows that the problem isn't just with the local authorities. It also shows that when water meters come along, some people are going to face both expensive water bills and expensive repair bills very suddenly.

    Indeed, from what I've read the majority of leaks are actually on private property of course as people aren't billed they don't have an incentive to dig up their front garden to see why they are getting high "water bills"


  • Options
    #116
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The council should be allowed to cut houses off where usage is 10,000 litres a day, 20 houses worth...say 5 days after service of an excessive usage notice. 10,000 litres = 10 cubic metres, €10 a day worth of water at a treatment cost of €1 per cubic metre which is the rough rule of thumb in Ireland ( with many small treatment plants) I understand.

    Councils have installed way more meters ( on roads ) in recent years and have a good idea of where they are losing water. But they have to 'appeal' to householders in many cases to conserve water. They often had no idea where the water was going as recently as 5 years back.

    An allowance of 500 litres per day allows 1 washing machine cycle, 1 dishwasher cycle , 5 showers, 10 flushes and as much water as 3 persons can drink without bursting :)

    People using 500-2500 litres may be amenable to advice on conservation rather than cut off.

    People who allow 10s of 1000s of litres to piss out daily are sociopaths ...unless they do something immediate once informed. A policy of metering and ( if required) cutting off the worst 1% of Irish households evey year would save probably 10% of water in very short order.


  • Options
    #117
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    People who allow 10s of 1000s of litres to piss out daily are sociopaths ...unless they do something immediate once informed. A policy of metering and ( if required) cutting off the worst 1% of Irish households evey year would save probably 10% of water in very short order.

    the prime example of course was during the recent cold winter spells. If metering was in place it would have put an end to the sort of behaviour that led to "water rationing" across Dublin.


  • Options
    #118
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Automated Meter Reading ( AMR) would have pinpointed serious leaks on a simple drive past. The premises could have been cut off if empty and cut off temporarily for 24 hours if occupied with the council coming back the next day to check on repairs.

    It wouldn't stop people from running taps ut it would stop them running taps 24/7 for fear of a cutoff.

    Galway county council begged holiday home owners in Connemara to check their premises and stop leaks during both cold snaps. In many cases pipes had burst inside and trashed the place. I did check a place along with its owner early in the second cold snap and we managed to drain the system completely and shut it off, took about an hour.


  • Options
    #119
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    I know that water abstraction from the river Shannon to supply Dublin is a contentious issue but has anyone thought of the possibility that if the proposals to extract natural gas from the Lough Allen basin go ahead, it could have dire environmental consequences for the water quality in the river Shannon?

    The process called "fracking" where water, sand and an assortment of highly toxic chemicals are injected at high pressure into shale to access methane gas has caused huge environmental problems in parts of the USA. In many cases, the fracking water with chemicals has leached into water tables and aquifers and has poisoned people's well and drinking water.

    Also, the wastewater from this "fracking" often contains trace radioactive material such a radium and uranium and this water has to be disposed somewhere. In many cases in the USA, the radioactive and polluted wastewater from fracking operations ends up in streams, lakes and rivers.

    Think about how this could affect the Shannon.:(:mad:

    Check out this link:
    http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/06/fracking-in-pennsylvania-201006


  • Options
    #120
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,703 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    I know that water abstraction from the river Shannon to supply Dublin is a contentious issue but has anyone thought of the possibility that if the proposals to extract natural gas from the Lough Allen basin go ahead, it could have dire environmental consequences for the water quality in the river Shannon?

    The process called "fracking" where water, sand and an assortment of highly toxic chemicals are injected at high pressure into shale to access methane gas has caused huge environmental problems in parts of the USA. In many cases, the fracking water with chemicals has leached into water tables and aquifers and has poisoned people's well and drinking water.

    Also, the wastewater from this "fracking" often contains trace radioactive material such a radium and uranium and this water has to be disposed somewhere. In many cases in the USA, the radioactive and polluted wastewater from fracking operations ends up in streams, lakes and rivers.

    Think about how this could affect the Shannon.:(:mad:

    Check out this link:
    http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/06/fracking-in-pennsylvania-201006
    There is an article on this in last weeks Celt (local paper);

    http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2011/07/14/4005504-cavan-urged-to-make-stand-against-gas-drilling-plans/

    There was a thread on this issue on the Politics forum, here, if you are interested.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #121
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    is it just me or is anyone else disapointed when they see the work Fracking and it's nothing to do with Battlestar Galactica? :D


Advertisement