Go **** yourself THQ

07-02-2012 7:54pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Actually just noticed that the quotes in the OP are attributed to a game designer rather than a publisher.

Which actually pretty much entirely shifts the nature of this debate on its head :pac:

I've said that twice already and still no one listened, I do wonder do people read these articles at all before grabbing the pitchfork.

richymcdermott wrote: »

It may have come from the lead designer but hes speaking behalf of the THQ team , just like when one team mate from a sports team does one thing out of order it looks bad for the team he plays cause hes represents the team..

He doesn't even work directly for THQ, he's a designer for Volition, a studio owned by THQ so to attribute his comments to a company which numbers in the thousands is more than a bit unfair.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

CD Projekt are stepping in as the voice of reason as always and are totally against it:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-07-witcher-2-dev-next-xbox-not-playing-pre-owned-games-a-bad-thing

In fairness he said "It can be a bad thing", I wouldn't call that totally against it. Personally I think it's absolutely horrible that a studio like CD Projekt Red who can come out with such an outstanding game as The Witcher 2 and then support it with additional free content should have to worry about "convincing" people to stay with their game and not trade it in, nevermind the huge number of people who just flat out pirated it. Yes, that's 4.5m (and a conservative figure at that) pirated copies against 1m sales for one of the finest RPGs in years. A way to do business indeed.

johnny_ultimate · 07-02-2012 7:57pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

CD Projekt are stepping in as the voice of reason as always and are totally against it:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-07-witcher-2-dev-next-xbox-not-playing-pre-owned-games-a-bad-thing

TBH they get one thing right on. We can blame the developers, the retailers and the publishers all we want (and they all significantly contribute to the situation we find ourselves in). But in reality it's the gamers who are a source of huge amounts of the problem. The ones who refuse to take risks and just buy the same franchises over and over again. The ones who come online and complain about all this nonsense without doing anything about it (remember the protest over MW2 on Steam?). The ones who pirate. The gaming community is certainly encouraging and often indirectly supporting many of these more draconian actions.

It's a Catch-22 situation. Everyone claims they want no DRM, longer games, higher production values and lower prices - almost all conflicting demands. Yet the people who do give them what they want often find themselves struggling. Frankly, there's probably no solution to keep everyone happy.

Retr0gamer · 07-02-2012 8:08pm

gizmo wrote: »

In fairness he said "It can be a bad thing", I wouldn't call that totally against it. Personally I think it's absolutely horrible that a studio like CD Projekt Red who can come out with such an outstanding game as The Witcher 2 and then support it with additional free content should have to worry about "convincing" people to stay with their game and not trade it in, nevermind the huge number of people who just flat out pirated it. Yes, that's 4.5m (and a conservative figure at that) pirated copies against 1m sales for one of the finest RPGs in years. A way to do business indeed.

How many of those 4.5 million are a lost sale though? Nobody can tell. Is4.5 million pirated copies even that big a number in terms of how many were sold? It's getting off topic now but what I like about CD Projekt is in articles about the games piracy rates they discussed them but never whinged and moaned about it. They know it's a fact of life and they are dealing with it without dicking over the customer. They made a big budget game and made a nice profit while without using DRM which I think a lot of other developers and publishers should look at.

ShadowHearth · 07-02-2012 8:23pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

CD Projekt are stepping in as the voice of reason as always and are totally against it:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-07-witcher-2-dev-next-xbox-not-playing-pre-owned-games-a-bad-thing

That's why cd project red is my favourite developer. Witcher 2 is my goty and I freaking love that game. The whole approach they have with gamers is just amazing. I got witcher 1, witcher 2, and I will buy witcher 2 on Xbox too just so I could give them some money and have that game for my great game collection.

It weird, but when I am reading those articles about new drm and that new Xblender bull**** I feel like criminal and treated like scum who will be stealing everything. It's like they are doing us a faivor for letting us play on their new console! Atleast cd project red still sees gamers, not potential murderers, pirates and financial mastermind villains.

ShadowHearth · 07-02-2012 8:29pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

How many of those 4.5 million are a lost sale though? Nobody can tell. Is4.5 million pirated copies even that big a number in terms of how many were sold? It's getting off topic now but what I like about CD Projekt is in articles about the games piracy rates they discussed them but never whinged and moaned about it. They know it's a fact of life and they are dealing with it without dicking over the customer. They made a big budget game and made a nice profit while without using DRM which I think a lot of other developers and publishers should look at.

Spot on.

They are making customers to buy game and not trade it in by having a high quality product." If you buy our game, support us, then we can gve you more and even bigger!".

richymcdermott · 07-02-2012 8:52pm

You could look at the success of from software demons souls series , the game wasant even suppose to come out in the west and word to mouth people were talking about it and i imported my copy from china and looks at the success that had with no advertisement and no online pass or dlc and both game went to sell over a million copies, same with catherine that did very well and thats an obscure game , and heavy rain not really a videogame at all went on to sell 2million , was not even expected to sell that much but did really well.

Games are still doing great despite people buying second hand games, surely they understand no one could try out new ips if they removed second hand games completly , w be stuck it cod 47 and bf21 :P

Retr0gamer · 07-02-2012 9:08pm

Demon's Souls is kind of an exception to the rules, you get something like that every so often like Minecraft or Katamari and it can't really be predicted by software companies.

How Dark Souls is a better example. It had much less of a budget than most projects this year and was made by a tiny team in comparison but probably brought in massive profits (although server rent could have eaten into that). The fact of the matter is that From Software budgeted correctly for the current market and were rewarded.

There's too many developers out there that believe they will make it with a massive new IP then make decent games that don't excel with hardly any marketing and release it during a busy time of year expecting it to compete. Stuff like Enslaved by Ninja Theory. Developers and publishers need to know their limits. An example of handling a game well is EA's handling of Kingdoms of Amalur, a game that nobody was interested in that is being promoted on the back of Mass Effect 3 and being released during a quiet period of the year. I can see it being a surprise hit for them. A bad example is Sega releasing Resonance of Fate in the same week as FFXIII and Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey which sowed up the hardcore and casual JRPG market. It didn't matter how well regarded the game is now, it was sent out to die.

A bit more business smarts is needed by a lot of people in the industry. Nintendo had Mario Galaxy 2 ready for months but heldit back until a time when it wasn't competing with its other games. There's always a summer drought that is never taken advantage of, it worked wonders for God of War back in the day.

richymcdermott · 07-02-2012 9:14pm

Actually thats a very good point , the likes of sonic generations last year coming out same week as mw3 and skyrim , bad bad business in its own , there was also i think infamous 2 sales were poor csuse it came out in the summer when people go out on holidays or outside playing with their friends , just really bad marketing is also a cause of plummit sales...

07-02-2012 9:16pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

How many of those 4.5 million are a lost sale though? Nobody can tell. Is4.5 million pirated copies even that big a number in terms of how many were sold? It's getting off topic now but what I like about CD Projekt is in articles about the games piracy rates they discussed them but never whinged and moaned about it. They know it's a fact of life and they are dealing with it without dicking over the customer. They made a big budget game and made a nice profit while without using DRM which I think a lot of other developers and publishers should look at.

I'd hope you know quite well at this stage that I don't subscribe to the belief that every download is a lost sale. However, neither do I believe that a large number of those downloads wouldn't be converted to legitimate purchases were that download not available. The number is, as you say, unknown but that doesn't mean it's not a glaring issue for developers, not just because of the approximate financial loss (that's an issue too of course) but also, in the context of the thread, what it represents to publishers and their future decisions.

As for CD Projekt specifically, well one could look at the $7m profit they made from all of their operations in the first half of 2011 ($5m of that came from The Witcher 2) and think they're doing well (they're doing better than most I'd imagine) but how far do you think that would go when they move onto the next project and have to pay their 400 odd employees for the next 4 years until the next release? As for the DRM issue, don't forget they also retained the use of a law firm to go after the people who had downloaded their game and only backed down after outcry from gamers. Moral of the story, every company sees this as an issue and are experimenting with ways to deal with it. Eventually a solution will be settled upon but I'd wager it won't be as simple as throwing their hands up in the air and living with it.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

How Dark Souls is a better example. It had much less of a budget than most projects this year and was made by a tiny team in comparison but probably brought in massive profits (although server rent could have eaten into that). The fact of the matter is that From Software budgeted correctly for the current market and were rewarded.

Can't find any figures on the Dark Souls team, the only figure I can see is the 205 number from 2008 on their wiki page. I'd imagine thats grown larger but is also split between the Armoured Core and Steel Batallion teams?

Amalgam · 07-02-2012 9:16pm

Not just Microsoft.. Sony have been putting out feelers for a system like this for a few years, hints of it being on the horizon. I think their system burned on or burned off an area of the game, making it locked to the console. Something odd like that.

Retr0gamer · 07-02-2012 9:42pm

gizmo wrote: »

Can't find any figures on the Dark Souls team, the only figure I can see is the 205 number from 2008 on their wiki page. I'd imagine thats grown larger but is also split between the Armoured Core and Steel Batallion teams?

Not sure it's an even split, they've a lot of projects on going in From and a lot of cross over. Demon's Souls was made with a budget for expected sales of 40,000. I'd imagine Dark Souls budget is a bit more but not by much.

ShadowHearth · 07-02-2012 10:11pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Not sure it's an even split, they've a lot of projects on going in From and a lot of cross over. Demon's Souls was made with a budget for expected sales of 40,000. I'd imagine Dark Souls budget is a bit more but not by much.

They expected to sell only 40k of it?! Seriously?! Damn, they deffo sold more then that now. So I guess theyr budget was really tiny.

Retr0gamer · 07-02-2012 10:15pm

Yup Sony really didn't have much faith in it. It was an extremely niche game on a niche console (in japan at the time) with no plans of a foreign release. Games with budgets covering 40K sales expectations aren't rare in Japan in fact they are the norm at the moment. I'm sure Sony provided a lot of support and funding though and the engine for Demon's Souls and Dark Souls is a Sony developed one. It's strange that it is developed as a multiformat platform but it's not unusual for different departments within Sony to have very little communication with each other

ShadowHearth · 07-02-2012 10:21pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Yup Sony really didn't have much faith in it. It was an extremely niche game on a niche console (in japan at the time) with no plans of a foreign release. Games with budgets covering 40K sales expectations aren't rare in Japan in fact they are the norm at the moment. I'm sure Sony provided a lot of support and funding though and the engine for Demon's Souls and Dark Souls is a Sony developed one. It's strange that it is developed as a multiformat platform but it's not unusual for different departments within Sony to have very little communication with each other

Well they pulled it off. Who knew people love challenge and exploration in theyr games

.
It's sort of funny how it has no online pass stuff too

07-02-2012 10:39pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Yup Sony really didn't have much faith in it. It was an extremely niche game on a niche console (in japan at the time) with no plans of a foreign release. Games with budgets covering 40K sales expectations aren't rare in Japan in fact they are the norm at the moment. I'm sure Sony provided a lot of support and funding though and the engine for Demon's Souls and Dark Souls is a Sony developed one. It's strange that it is developed as a multiformat platform but it's not unusual for different departments within Sony to have very little communication with each other

Well while the PhyreEngine doesn't officially support the 360 as a target platform, it's been extended to do so by a number of companies. Codemasters, for instance, built their EGO Engine around it so I'd imagine it was the perfect choice for From given that they'd already used it for Demon's Souls. I'm quite surprised at their sales expectations in fairness or, to be more precise, I'm quite surprised at the scale of the game given their original expectations.

Retr0gamer · 07-02-2012 11:42pm

I think Sony must have been heavily involved in it and the funding. They were probably looking for a hardcore game in that mould to fit into the PS3 library and try out the engine. But yeah Sony said they made a big mistake not supporting it and giving it a worldwide release and that they didn't expect it to break 40K sales.

08-02-2012 12:09am

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I think Sony must have been heavily involved in it and the funding. They were probably looking for a hardcore game in that mould to fit into the PS3 library and try out the engine. But yeah Sony said they made a big mistake not supporting it and giving it a worldwide release and that they didn't expect it to break 40K sales.

If I remember correctly from an article around the time of the TGS before release, one of the guys from From was saying their Producer from Sony was really hands off, totally supported what they were doing and fought their corner when needed. This came in useful after the feedback from said TGS came in which was a general mixture of pure horror and utter bemusement at the difficulty level. Personally I don't think Sony as a company knew what they had on their hands until it was close to release and they got some proper time with it. Either way, fair dues to the Producer for sticking by them.

As for the engine, I'd say having Codemasters build their tech around it was the most important usage of it at the time, especially since they knew it'd make its way into so many games.

Mr.Saturn · 08-02-2012 1:36am

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I have no problem with this, as long as it results with more money to the devolpers and not the big publishers.

This never happens. If this notion gains any ground, all it'll mean is that the gaming landscape be decimated, and absorbed, by the big boys, who, save a smattering of exceptions, are happy to pressurize developers into speedy production times and mediocre results.

Mind, that being said. The likes of EA and Activision et al would be happy for you to believe that this'll aid the little guy, whatever it takes to push the idea through.

Chris_Heilong · 08-02-2012 2:35am

The gaming industry are making enough money nowadays as they sell games in there millions as opposed to the MD/SNES days, the developer makes there money when the game is bought new as it should be, if the games does not make money then it is a flop regardless of if it does well on the 2nd hand market, Games are over priced as are films and need to come down in price as well as companies projected revenue from sale of said item. Its a silly argument that spans film/music/games industry, they try and control and squeeze every penny they can get from the customers, charging for Dl content still feels wrong and it should be a system where gamer points can be traded for avatar clothes new games and if you want them faster then you can buy them but this greedy business plan is what is killing the quality of games not the fact they are ripping us of less and there for getting less of the money we dont have, even 2nd hand games are over priced, they need to come down to around €15.

Overheal · 08-02-2012 4:10am

hooradiation wrote: »

Please, it's kind of you, but wait until after I've explained why everyone but me is wrong before you applaud.

I've pirated this quote and taken it for my own. Ta

martyos121 · 08-02-2012 4:32am

Serious changes must happen before this will even be considered!
For example, I've been searching for a particular game a few years ago. I bought it pre-owned, and that was that, but if pre-owned sales are abolished, how would I buy such a game if production was stopped? I couldn't, it would be impossible to actually buy a physical copy of the game! This will not work out, not a chance, pre-owned games are definitely here to stay, get used to it THQ.

Myrddin · 08-02-2012 10:13am

Consoles today are up against it big time, a move like this could seriously impact how people percieve its worth, & ultimately its sales. This could perpetuate a situation where Sony have an advantage by coming to the next market last, evaluating how this drm scheme is impacting MS, & choose to cash in on it or pitch directly against it.

"The Playstation 4 - Play What You Want"

08-02-2012 10:22am

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

The gaming industry are making enough money nowadays as they sell games in there millions as opposed to the MD/SNES days, the developer makes there money when the game is bought new as it should be, if the games does not make money then it is a flop regardless of if it does well on the 2nd hand market, Games are over priced as are films and need to come down in price as well as companies projected revenue from sale of said item. Its a silly argument that spans film/music/games industry, they try and control and squeeze every penny they can get from the customers, charging for Dl content still feels wrong and it should be a system where gamer points can be traded for avatar clothes new games and if you want them faster then you can buy them but this greedy business plan is what is killing the quality of games not the fact they are ripping us of less and there for getting less of the money we dont have, even 2nd hand games are over priced, they need to come down to around €15.

I'm frankly amazed you've managed to squeeze so many misnomers and factual errors into such a small paragraph.

Chris_Heilong · 08-02-2012 11:56am

gizmo wrote: »

I'm frankly amazed you've managed to squeeze so many misnomers and factual errors into such a small paragraph.

What factual errors? everything I have said I stand by, even though it was written at 1:30 in the morning and I was about to fall asleep at the keyboard(hence the spellings). But as I have been a gamer since the early 80s I can really see how business plans and casual gaming have ruined the industry.

08-02-2012 12:22pm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

What factual errors? everything I have said I stand by, even though it was written at 1:30 in the morning and I was about to fall asleep at the keyboard(hence the spellings). But as I have been a gamer since the early 80s I can really see how business plans and casual gaming have ruined the industry.

Here's a quick list of the errors so:

The gaming industry isn't making enough money nowadays, you can tell from the number of not only developers that are closing or on the brink of closing but even publishers now.
Not all games sell millions, hell not all games even sell a million copies.
A comparison with the days of the MD/SNES is completely irrevelant given the astronomical increase in the development costs for games.
The developer generally does not make money directly when a game is bought new.
If a game was to do "well" on the second hand market then it obviously means the new sales for the title were reduced. There is most certainly a correlation between the two.
Games are not over priced, simply reading up on the topic will show you the large development costs involved and this is before marketing and publisher costs. Generally speaking, they simply cannot come down in price in any significant manner.
Charging for DLC is wrong? So they should give away content produced for free?
Gamerpoints have no association with marketplace items, nor should they. They are simply a nice little bonus system for people who want to achieve certain things in-game.
Charging for content produced is not greedy, especially when they're completely optional vanity items. They also have absolutely zero relevance to games for this very same reason.
Second hand games are the price they are because people will still go out and buy them just to save a fiver, not caring who gets their money. This is a retailer issue, not a developer/publisher one, so if you have an issue with it, vote with your wallet.

So yea, a nice mix of factual errors and misnomers in there. The last one isn't so much wrong as it's a very specific area of the "industry" at fault there, even if I am loath to refer to those retailers as part of the industry.

ShadowHearth · 08-02-2012 12:52pm

gizmo wrote: »

Here's a quick list of the errors so:
The gaming industry isn't making enough money nowadays, you can tell from the number of not only developers that are closing or on the brink of closing but even publishers now.

Not all games sell millions, hell not all games even sell a million copies.

A comparison with the days of the MD/SNES is completely irrevelant given the astronomical increase in the development costs for games.

The developer generally does not make money directly when a game is bought new.

If a game was to do "well" on the second hand market then it obviously means the new sales for the title were reduced. There is most certainly a correlation between the two.

Games are not over priced, simply reading up on the topic will show you the large development costs involved and this is before marketing and publisher costs. Generally speaking, they simply cannot come down in price in any significant manner.

Charging for DLC is wrong? So they should give away content produced for free?

Gamerpoints have no association with marketplace items, nor should they. They are simply a nice little bonus system for people who want to achieve certain things in-game.

Charging for content produced is not greedy, especially when they're completely optional vanity items. They also have absolutely zero relevance to games for this very same reason.

Second hand games are the price they are because people will still go out and buy them just to save a fiver, not caring who gets their money. This is a retailer issue, not a developer/publisher one, so if you have an issue with it, vote with your wallet.

So yea, a nice mix of factual errors and misnomers in there. The last one isn't so much wrong as it's a very specific area of the "industry" at fault there, even if I am loath to refer to those retailers as part of the industry.

All this can be explained: survival of the fittest.

You make good games - you make tons of money and your studio is alive and kicking

You make ****y game - then here you go p45, bye bye.

So yeah, voting with the wallet.

richymcdermott · 08-02-2012 1:05pm

it should be noted that publishers arent letting people go cause of second hand games alone , the likes of thq for an example wasted100 million plus on udraw just to try to cater to the casuals that no one cared about , and i believe they wasted a **** load of money of the fps games homeworld, the only game they really had that sold very well was saints row 3 with 3.5 million.

Retr0gamer · 08-02-2012 1:13pm

ShadowHearth wrote: »

All this can be explained: survival of the fittest.

This pretty much sums it up. There's far too many developers and publishers blaming second hand sales when their game flops instead of looking at the real reasons, crap poduct, bad/no marketing, releasing it at a saturated period of the year. Getting rid of pre-owned sales isn't going to be a magic bullet that sorts out all the industries problems and as I said I feel if they do go forward with this a lot will be surprised at how little an impact it will make on overall sales.

The whole game industry is built on taking risks. It's not the first time the industry has been in such a state, lots of companies lost money and closed in the early 1990's because of the multimedia fad and Nintendos stupid policy of controlling production of cartridges for their system. If you are good and smart enough you'll survive

Blocking pre-owned game sales is a desperation move when what the industry really needs is a shake up and not to blame all of its problems on pre-owned games sales.

08-02-2012 1:23pm

richymcdermott wrote: »

it should be noted that publishers arent letting people go cause of second hand games alone , the likes of thq for an example wasted100 million plus on udraw just to try to cater to the casuals that no one cared about , and i believe they wasted a **** load of money of the fps games homeworld, the only game they really had that sold very well was saints row 3 with 3.5 million.

Oh I don't think anyone could blame second hand sales alone but they're certainly a large contributing factor in most cases. THQ have been in the **** for awhile though thanks to a bunch of poor decisions, the uDraw fiasco has just driven them over the edge so to speak. Homefront certainly didn't help. I don't think money was necessarily wasted there it was more that Kaos were forced to work to an insane deadline to get it finished so they would have a CoD challenger. The game, unfortunately, ended up the poorer for it and then they went and closed the studio.

As for their other games, the reviews for Retribution seemed great although I have no idea how it sold. Space Marine, despite being above average at worst, failed to break the one millon sales mark, at least in terms of boxed copies, which is a pity. Red Faction: Armageddon fell into the same boat however that one was most definitely average. As you said, Saints Row 3 was most definitely their biggest seller.

2012 could be good for them anyway, they have Darksiders II with a firm release date, Dawn Of War III is looking like end of year release and then there's new Metro and UFC to come as well as the rather interesting looking South Park RPG. Here's hoping they can hold on anyway.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

This pretty much sums it up. There's far too many developers and publishers blaming second hand sales when their game flops instead of looking at the real reasons, crap poduct, bad/no marketing, releasing it at a saturated period of the year. Getting rid of pre-owned sales isn't going to be a magic bullet that sorts out all the industries problems and as I said I feel if they do go forward with this a lot will be surprised at how little an impact it will make on overall sales.

The only studio I've ever seen directly blame second hand sale for a drop in sales has been Quantic Dream. I also don't think anyone thinks it'll suddenly make all games sell millions but the figures don't lie, there is a massive amount of revenue being lost to the retailers which, even if they saw a fraction of it, would help developers and publishers alike.

richymcdermott · 08-02-2012 2:12pm

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/334982/features/xbox-720-blocking-used-games-would-be-unfair-writes-halo-dev/

Halo Developers give their opinions

Go **** yourself THQ

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