The Fiscal Treaty Yes or No

EURATS · 19-05-2012 1:26pm

Boskowski wrote: »

EURATS wrote: »

Trolls coming in talking incoherent nonsense now. Thread should be closed

Says the guy with all of 22 posts on his belt and the eloquent username? I'm impressed.

Well we all have to start somewhere boskowski. Being on 2,389 posts seems to put you up on a pedestal, or at least you think it does. And that's fine. Each to their own.
As for your post, there was nothing eloquent about it. This one today however wasn't as sloppy. Not to say I agree with you

wrfc · 19-05-2012 4:11pm

intresting videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChiV9g5ovVc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=EPcWHBPYOSU&NR=1

Sully · 20-05-2012 11:32am

wrfc wrote: »

intresting videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChiV9g5ovVc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=EPcWHBPYOSU&NR=1

Please add your thoughts on the video, this is a discussion forum.

The videos are factually incorrect and scaremongering. Most of what they mention are not in the treaty or have been addressed earlier in this point.

banjacksed · 20-05-2012 2:22pm

Sully wrote: »

Please add your thoughts on the video, this is a discussion forum.

The videos are factually incorrect and scaremongering. Most of what they mention are not in the treaty or have been addressed earlier in this point.

You seem to be politically Biased sully? are you a member of any parties currently in government by any chance? ( not saying theres anything wrong with that ).

Who started the scaremongering in the first place only FG/LAB

Sully · 20-05-2012 2:34pm

banjacksed wrote: »

You seem to be politically Biased sully? are you a member of any parties currently in government by any chance? ( not saying theres anything wrong with that ).

Yes, Fine Gael. Well known, and not disguised. But Boards is a discussion forum and in general people are asked not to just post links and say nothing. Regardless of the discussion.

Who started the scaremongering in the first place only FG/LAB

Its not scaremongering telling people we wont get access to the ESM, we may not get money from the markets/ISM and if we do we don't know the rates or terms attached. Fact.

letsbet · 20-05-2012 2:39pm

Sully wrote: »

Its not scaremongering telling people we wont get access to the ESM, we may not get money from the markets/ISM and if we do we don't know the rates or terms attached. Fact.

It is scaremongering (and inaccurate) to say that yes is a vote for the EU etc. as Enda said yesterday, implying that somehow voting no is a vote against the EU which is compelte rubbish.

banjacksed · 20-05-2012 3:59pm

Sully wrote: »

Yes, Fine Gael. Well known, and not disguised. But Boards is a discussion forum and in general people are asked not to just post links and say nothing. Regardless of the discussion.

Its not scaremongering telling people we wont get access to the ESM, we may not get money from the markets/ISM and if we do we don't know the rates or terms attached. Fact.

Yes it is a discussion forum, but it looks like your using it to promote a yes vote, For your leader / Party, your straight in everytime someone express an opinion and try get them to change their minds,

In fairness what do you expect by the way Irish People have being lied to again by their government.

Why dont you tell the forum members here what your party has promised the irish people to get into government and what they have backtracked on !!!! just to date.
And now they want the Irish people to trust what they are now saying and asking for !!!!!
Jesus do you believe to that the irish are just plain thick and believe anything their being told .

Is this what your leader is bashing you with, hahahahahah :rolleyes:

ps, I have nothing personal against you just your party that you support

Sully · 20-05-2012 6:51pm

banjacksed wrote: »

Yes it is a discussion forum, but it looks like your using it to promote a yes vote, For your leader / Party, your straight in everytime someone express an opinion and try get them to change their minds,

Because I asked one person who posted videos without commenting to expand?!

In fairness what do you expect by the way Irish People have being lied to again by their government.

What do I expect from what now?

Why dont you tell the forum members here what your party has promised the irish people to get into government and what they have backtracked on !!!! just to date.
And now they want the Irish people to trust what they are now saying and asking for !!!!!
Jesus do you believe to that the irish are just plain thick and believe anything their being told .

Is this what your leader is bashing you with, hahahahahah :rolleyes:

ps, I have nothing personal against you just your party that you support

This isn't a discussion of Fine Gael or Labour. I have been open to the things the party promised and reneged on in discussions. I have also pointed out that people seem to be forgetting what they were told that FG/Labour did do. also. Am I happy with their performance? Not fully. Is that relevant to this treaty? No.

You don't have to listen to their views, and go with a Yes vote. You can look at others who have expressed their views. I have given a list of organisations (small and large) and businesses backing the treaty. Christ even Ronan O'Gara is in today's Sindo calling for a Yes vote and he isn't a member of either party. Brian Cody, another backer of the treaty. All Independent minds, party politics aside. Two Dragons Dens members are backing it - big money names.

I don't want people to listen to me either, as I am biased, and vote on what I say. But I will tell the truth and correct dishonest remarks made by either.

Sully · 20-05-2012 6:55pm

letsbet wrote: »

It is scaremongering (and inaccurate) to say that yes is a vote for the EU etc. as Enda said yesterday, implying that somehow voting no is a vote against the EU which is compelte rubbish.

If that's what he said, I agree that its misleading. Maybe Lisbon, but not the Fiscal Treaty. Europe can move on without us, which wasn't really possible before, and we wouldn't be left out on the side as such.

EURATS · 20-05-2012 7:04pm

Sully wrote: »

banjacksed wrote: »

Yes it is a discussion forum, but it looks like your using it to promote a yes vote, For your leader / Party, your straight in everytime someone express an opinion and try get them to change their minds,

Because I asked one person who posted videos without commenting to expand?!

In fairness what do you expect by the way Irish People have being lied to again by their government.

What do I expect from what now?

Why dont you tell the forum members here what your party has promised the irish people to get into government and what they have backtracked on !!!! just to date.
And now they want the Irish people to trust what they are now saying and asking for !!!!!
Jesus do you believe to that the irish are just plain thick and believe anything their being told .

Is this what your leader is bashing you with, hahahahahah :rolleyes:

ps, I have nothing personal against you just your party that you support

This isn't a discussion of Fine Gael or Labour. I have been open to the things the party promised and reneged on in discussions. I have also pointed out that people seem to be forgetting what they were told that FG/Labour did do. also. Am I happy with their performance? Not fully. Is that relevant to this treaty? No.

You don't have to listen to their views, and go with a Yes vote. You can look at others who have expressed their views. I have given a list of organisations (small and large) and businesses backing the treaty. Christ even Ronan O'Gara is in today's Sindo calling for a Yes vote and he isn't a member of either party. Brian Cody, another backer of the treaty. All Independent minds, party politics aside. Two Dragons Dens members are backing it - big money names.

I don't want people to listen to me either, as I am biased, and vote on what I say. But I will tell the truth and correct dishonest remarks made by either.

Jaysus..Brian Cody, ronan o'gara, dragons den people. Better listen so.

This is very much about FG/labour. They,along with yourself and many others are the ones looking to bully and intimidate us into voting YES prematurely to a treaty that isn't even finalised yet and hasnt been ratified by germany.

Again I ask,and am blue in the face asking it....what is/was the rush for a May 31st referendum?
(and I don't need a 2 page essay of a response)

Stinks me thinks!!

Unfortunately Ireland has a long history of being raped and pillaged. This is just history repeating itself. Is a vicious cycle and one that's extremely hard to get out of.
When we were occupied by the British, the place was full of informers that sold out their own for personal gain.

De ja vu 2 0 1 2 !!!!!!

Sully · 20-05-2012 7:29pm

EURATS wrote: »

Jaysus..Brian Cody, ronan o'gara, dragons den people. Better listen so.

This is very much about FG/labour. They,along with yourself and many others are the ones looking to bully and intimidate us into voting YES prematurely to a treaty that isn't even finalised yet and hasnt been ratified by germany.

You said it was political bullying. Independent people spoke out and backed it. It renders your whole argument nill and void.

Again I ask,and am blue in the face asking it....what is/was the rush for a May 31st referendum?
(and I don't need a 2 page essay of a response)

I would answer it but I didn't appreciate your tone with the last dig there.

Stinks me thinks!!

Unfortunately Ireland has a long history of being raped and pillaged. This is just history repeating itself. Is a vicious cycle and one that's extremely hard to get out of.
When we were occupied by the British, the place was full of informers that sold out their own for personal gain.

De ja vu 2 0 1 2 !!!!!!

Seriously? lol

EURATS · 20-05-2012 7:42pm

Sully wrote: »

EURATS wrote: »

Jaysus..Brian Cody, ronan o'gara, dragons den people. Better listen so.

This is very much about FG/labour. They,along with yourself and many others are the ones looking to bully and intimidate us into voting YES prematurely to a treaty that isn't even finalised yet and hasnt been ratified by germany.

You said it was political bullying. Independent people spoke out and backed it. It renders your whole argument nill and void.

Again I ask,and am blue in the face asking it....what is/was the rush for a May 31st referendum?
(and I don't need a 2 page essay of a response)

I would answer it but I didn't appreciate your tone with the last dig there.

Stinks me thinks!!

Unfortunately Ireland has a long history of being raped and pillaged. This is just history repeating itself. Is a vicious cycle and one that's extremely hard to get out of.
When we were occupied by the British, the place was full of informers that sold out their own for personal gain.

De ja vu 2 0 1 2 !!!!!!

Seriously? lol

Throw in a few sports stars, "tv stars" and a few independents that are on the FG payroll and that is enough to invalidate my point? Even your nil and void(nul and void?) bit is wrong. I assume a typo.
I won't even laugh.

Convenient that you, like the other FG Mods won't answer the May 31st part. Fortunately for you I gave u an excuse to take the childish line.

And as for laughing about Ireland's history, it says it all!!

Sully · 20-05-2012 8:22pm

EURATS wrote: »

Throw in a few sports stars, "tv stars" and a few independents that are on the FG payroll and that is enough to invalidate my point? Even your nil and void(nul and void?) bit is wrong. I assume a typo.
I won't even laugh.

Convenient that you, like the other FG Mods won't answer the May 31st part. Fortunately for you I gave u an excuse to take the childish line.

And as for laughing about Ireland's history, it says it all!!

If you say so.

wellboytoo · 20-05-2012 9:03pm

€10 says eurats won't make fifty posts.

Trick of the Tail · 21-05-2012 10:19am

We're really being propagandised on this one. I just read the leaflet from the so-called 'independent' Referendum Commission.

Its so biased towards a 'yes', it's laughable.

The mere fact that this is called a 'Stability' Treaty - who'd vote for instability?

The point that is being concealed is that the Fiscal Treaty (which is now moot anyway as France want the content altered) necessitates a change in our constitution because is gives a foreign power even more authority over Ireland.

That's why we need a referendum. The Constitution was written, in part, to protect the sovereignty of the state, and the treaty devolves some of that sovereignty.

So we should be being asked - do you agree to allow a foreign power to have more control over the elected government on Ireland?

I'm not saying you should vote yes or no - just that you should know what you're being asked.

A.

Turnstyle · 21-05-2012 10:48am

alinton wrote: »

The point that is being concealed is that the Fiscal Treaty (which is now moot anyway as France want the content altered) necessitates a change in our constitution because is gives a foreign power even more authority over Ireland.

That's why we need a referendum. The Constitution was written, in part, to protect the sovereignty of the state, and the treaty devolves some of that sovereignty.

So we should be being asked - do you agree to allow a foreign power to have more control over the elected government on Ireland?

A.

This is more or less it in a nutshell for me, our government is obviously trying to force a yes vote because they are afraid to face a possibly tougher road without access to the ESM, they simply do not have a clue what they are at and will do whatever is asked by Europe regardless. Voting on this treaty should be pushed back to a later date at the very least... for us to seek a short term solution to our woes at the cost of handing over more of our sovereignty and changing our own constitution is weak and plain wrong

UnDeclanGanley · 21-05-2012 11:13am

I've said it before and i'll say it again, when trying to decide on a tricky issue, ask yourself "What would Declan Ganley do?" (#wwdgd) and the answer will become clear.

Sully · 21-05-2012 11:35am

UnDeclanGanley wrote: »

I've said it before and i'll say it again, when trying to decide on a tricky issue, ask yourself "What would Declan Ganley do?" (#wwdgd) and the answer will become clear.

Make profit from a No vote? Owns nearly 50% in shares in a company that's asking people to put money into Swiss accounts, move out of the euro, and thus profiting from economic uncertainty.

See; http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ganley-denies-conflict-of-interest-in-calling-for-no-vote-552198.html

He is also a Politician who was rejected by the electorate, yet wont go away.

I see that another Independent thinker who is usually critical of the government is backing a Yes vote. He described "no" campaigners as a "bunch of idiots and lunatics." Who could it be? Why its Michael O'Leary, CEO of Ryanair!

Source: http://www.cnbc.com/id/47500604/

Sully · 21-05-2012 11:41am

alinton wrote: »

We're really being propagandised on this one. I just read the leaflet from the so-called 'independent' Referendum Commission.

Its so biased towards a 'yes', it's laughable.

The mere fact that this is called a 'Stability' Treaty - who'd vote for instability?

The point that is being concealed is that the Fiscal Treaty (which is now moot anyway as France want the content altered) necessitates a change in our constitution because is gives a foreign power even more authority over Ireland.

That's why we need a referendum. The Constitution was written, in part, to protect the sovereignty of the state, and the treaty devolves some of that sovereignty.

So we should be being asked - do you agree to allow a foreign power to have more control over the elected government on Ireland?

I'm not saying you should vote yes or no - just that you should know what you're being asked.

A.

Agreed in part but this isn't the first time we have been asked to modify our constitution for Europe. Its not as such having "more control" as I see it, but I see the point. What its asking us to do is that we agree to stick to certain spending limits. After that, the Treaty is allowing the European Courts to decide if we are breaching the limits, and order us to fix it or face a fine. The figures and percentages that we must uphold are already agreed upon and wont change regardless of the way we vote. This takes it a step further to protect our budget and prevent the bigger countries from easily leaving the rules.

Re; France. It will be a growth pack which wont need changing the text within. Its an addition. It wont need us to re-run and the basic principle stays the same.

banjacksed · 21-05-2012 1:45pm

Has Enda kenny had a live head to head debate regarding the vote on live television yet..........

EURATS · 21-05-2012 1:52pm

banjacksed wrote: »

Has Enda kenny had a live head to head debate regarding the vote on live television yet..........

That really would be amusing. We can see the bullsheisen in the flesh!!

Finnbar01 · 21-05-2012 2:21pm

Sully wrote: »

Make profit from a No vote? Owns nearly 50% in shares in a company that's asking people to put money into Swiss accounts, move out of the euro, and thus profiting from economic uncertainty.

See; http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ganley-denies-conflict-of-interest-in-calling-for-no-vote-552198.html

He is also a Politician who was rejected by the electorate, yet wont go away.

I see that another Independent thinker who is usually critical of the government is backing a Yes vote. He described "no" campaigners as a "bunch of idiots and lunatics." Who could it be? Why its Michael O'Leary, CEO of Ryanair!

Source: http://www.cnbc.com/id/47500604/

Is that the same Michael O'Leary who call for immediate cuts of up to €20 billion?

ETA:

Nothing bad can possibly happen if this treaty is rejected. Accepting more bailout funds from the IMF or ESM would be the absolute worst thing for Ireland.

Indeed, accepting funds from the Troika is one of the things that destroyed Greece, and it is pathetic that clueless, brainless, scare-mongering political shills for Brussels are now going door-to-door in an attempt to convince Irish voters the exact opposite.

I totally agree.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/05/fear-vs-anger-door-to-door-fear.html

wellboytoo · 21-05-2012 9:15pm

O Leary did not call for immediate €20 billion cuts, he said when asked his opinion, that the government were making a cats manacky of it, he said the cuts were going on too long and there was no perceived end to them, he would cut 20 b in the first year get the pain out of the way in two years, and tell people that it will end in two years.
Agree or disagree the principal of a finite period of pain and a timescale has a definite appeal.
Probably the first time I warmed to one of his suggestions.

Finnbar01 · 21-05-2012 9:19pm

wellboytoo wrote: »

O Leary did not call for immediate €20 billion cuts, he said when asked his opinion, that the government were making a cats manacky of it, he said the cuts were going on too long and there was no perceived end to them, he would cut 20 b in the first year get the pain out of the way in two years, and tell people that it will end in two years.
Agree or disagree the principal of a finite period of pain and a timescale has a definite appeal.
Probably the first time I warmed to one of his suggestions.

That's the same thing, cut €20 billion in the yearly budget.

andrewdeerpark · 21-05-2012 9:23pm

Mainstream Irish media have not reported Michael O'Leary's comments why?

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47500604

Checked the Indo, rte and examiner and no mention of his support for the Yes side. Incidentally I agree with him 100%.

Hope the usual cranks (entitlement merchants, looney left, Sinners) with no ideas except negative politics loose, although its hard to judge the mood on this one.

wellboytoo · 21-05-2012 9:23pm

Finnbar01 wrote: »

That's the same thing, cut €20 billion in the yearly budget.

Ah no it's not, It's what he would do, not what we should do,he did...... nah I'm not going to get into a game of ping pong on this.

andrewdeerpark · 21-05-2012 10:20pm

Black Suir wrote: »

I'd hate to think where we would be right now had we not joined in 1973. We all would be a lot worse off in every way.

Correct and right. This country never stood on its own 2 feet until we joined the EU then the euro. Since independence to 1972 we have been sucking from the English hind tit.

It wasn't the Germans fault we inflated our property into the bubble that burst spectacularly. We have freedom with Taxation and we should have used a property TAX to cool the market in the boom years.

I am sensing a lot of bitter developers and people in the building trade on this thread. Most burned by the last wave of greed pre the crash and now bitter with everyone (Bertie, The Banks, Germans, who next) but themselves.

The building boom is over get on with your lives and lets invest in ideas and industry with an exporting future at the heart of the EU.

wellboytoo · 21-05-2012 10:30pm

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Correct and right. This country never stood on its own 2 feet until we joined the EU then the euro. Since independence to 1972 we have been sucking from the English hind tit.

It wasn't the Germans fault we inflated our property into the bubble that burst spectacularly. We have freedom with Taxation and we should have used a property TAX to cool the market in the boom years.

I am sensing a lot of bitter developers and people in the building trade on this thread. Most burned by the last wave of greed pre the crash and now bitter with everyone (Bertie, The Banks, Germans, who next) but themselves.

The building boom is over get on with your lives and lets invest in ideas and industry with an exporting future at the heart of the EU.

Whoa there a minute, it wasn't the Germans fault you are right, but their banks were up to their greedy necks in it too.
I agree with your points to some degree, but your issue with bitter developers et al, is a bit off the mark.
We all bought into the madness of the Celtic tiger to some degree, everybody,from people on the social, to the developers nobody was innocent , we sold ourselves a lie, so get off the self righteous "ye all" bit

andrewdeerpark · 21-05-2012 10:48pm

Not everyone got sucked into the property boom however you are right that a lot not related to the original greedy developers did.

Yes the German banks were lending money but so were the British, US and French. Plus all the dodgy government advice regarding the bank guarantee and the "soundness" of Irish banks came from London. Plus Ernst & Young are headquartered in London. Anyway off point.

This is not an excellent treaty, far from it however their is no advantage that I can see in voting no except for those of the type to give the establishment a bloody nose. Anyone on family welfare, a state / public service pension, in employment with an FDI should be the first up voting YES.

The French will push Euro bonds and we will be voting again in a year I predict.

wellboytoo · 21-05-2012 10:56pm

I'm voting yes anyway, I agree what nearly all of your points, so no argument there, but sometimes it feels like Germany after the war, I was just following orders.

The Fiscal Treaty Yes or No

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