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Bishop Accused of Incitement to Hatred - File Sent to DPP

  • 29-01-2012 11:10pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭


    A HOMILY delivered at Knock shrine by the Bishop of Raphoe, Philip Boyce, is being investigated by the Director of Public Prosecutions following a formal complaint by a leading humanist who claims the sermon was an incitement to hatred.

    The gardai have confirmed to former Fine Gael election candidate John Colgan that they have prepared and forwarded a file to the DPP after he made allegations that the address by Dr Boyce was in breach of the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act, 1989.

    The homily, entitled: "To Trust in God" was delivered to worshippers during a novena at the Marian shrine in Co Mayo last August and subsequently reported in the media, including The Irish Times, under the headline: "'Godless culture' attacking church, says bishop."

    Mr Colgan, a retired chartered engineer and economist from Leixlip, Co Kildare, referred in his formal complaint to two key passages in Dr Boyce's homily which he believes broke the law.

    One of the passages referred to the Catholic Church in Ireland being "attacked from outside by the arrows of a secular and godless culture".

    A second passage, which was included in the complaint, stated: "For the distinguishing mark of Christian believers is the fact they have a future; it is not that they know all the details that await them, but they know in general terms that their life will not end in emptiness."

    Mr Colgan, who was a leader in the 'Campaign to Separate Church and State' in the late 1990s, said in his complaint: "I believe statements of this kind are an incitement to hatred of dissidents, outsiders, secularists, within the meaning of the [Incitement to Hatred] Act, who are perfectly good citizens within the meaning of the civil law. The statements exemplify the chronic antipathy towards secularists, humanists etc, which has manifested itself in the ostracising of otherwise perfectly good Irish citizens, who do not share the aims of the Vatican's Irish Mission Church."

    More @ http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bishop-accused-of-incitement-to-hatred-in-homily-3003057.html

    Surprised this has not popped up here yet. I think it's a stupid thing to do. It is a waste of taxpayers money having it "investigated" and frankly an embarrassment to the humanist community of Ireland. I mean, this plays into the exact stereotype those on the religious right would like to portray athiests as: people who try get in the way of their "faith" and how they practice it.

    I agree the Bishop seems a bit of a headcase and what he said was wrong, but they are doing to do nothing other than make him surer of his convictions that Catholicism in Ireland is under attack.

    Sometimes I wonder if there is room for a new religion called "common sense"...:(

    What do you all think?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭fisgon


    Obviously there is no encitement to hatred here. The guy is wrong headed and overreacting.
    There is, however, the usual incitement to ignorance, paranoia, victimhood, and the adoption of a persection complex by the cleric involved, but it's the Catholic church, so what does he expect? This guy Colgan's complaint is just silly, and he should keep his powder dry for some real battles that are worth fighting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    i wouldnt even put the homily under" religious right". i doubt if anyone round these parts feels threatened.

    i just get the smell of someone who is looking to be offended.

    i would imagine that catholicism feels a bit of a siege mentalitiy in the last few years...so i would excuse on those grounds an alex ferguson team talk..

    and as for a faith in the future....thats the right of all religions...no surprise there. you would hope they would give that at least to the flock.

    o.t.t.

    makes the bishop look good i.m.o.

    maybe the complainer is a double agent!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Surely there's worse things said in sermons around the country that go unreported. Mountain out a molehill.
    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    makes the bishop look good i.m.o.
    I doubt that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22 irishben


    I believe the incitement to hatred bill is the same as censorship. That is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, or inconvenient to the general body of people as determined by a government, or other controlling body. Its a slippery slope we're on, if this Bishop is prosecuted.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Well, if this can go to court, anything is possible!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Although I agree with him to a point, the fact that Mr Colgan was in a RC church in the first place says to me that he was looking for a fight...!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    is this bishop accused then and not accusing? the title is a bit misleading

    it would be pretty funny if a bishop were making those accusations


    anyway i think it's a bit of a fuss about nothing, duno why the guy is complaining, the bishop was clearly saying "we believe in an afterlife so nyahh"


  • Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭gawker


    bluewolf wrote: »
    is this bishop accused then and not accusing? the title is a bit misleading

    Good spot, my mistake!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    bluewolf wrote: »
    is this bishop accused then and not accusing? the title is a bit misleading
    Fixed!

    For clarification title changed from "Bishop Accuses of Incitement to Hatred" to "Bishop Accused of Incitement to Hatred..."


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,739 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    its not that he said something directly hateful but if you suggest to people that they are being attacked, that could incite hate, I mean that is the classic way of doing it, anyway it won't go anywhere

    here's the full speech,
    http://www.donegaldaily.com/2012/01/29/bishop-boyces-knock-sermon-in-full/

    what was that thing the pope said about sword

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/13/the-pope-and-islam/
    http://onecatholicnews.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/pope-peace-is-not-built-by-the-sword-but-by-being-ready-to-suffer-rejection-and-persecution/

    that was all the way back in 2006?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Too much of both intolerance and taking offense in the world these days.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    the_syco wrote: »
    Although I agree with him to a point, the fact that Mr Colgan was in a RC church in the first place says to me that he was looking for a fight...!

    Is he an atheist? Only mentioned that he was involved in 'Campaign to Separate Church and State'. He could be a catholic.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    tricky D wrote: »
    Too much of both intolerance and taking offense in the world these days.

    190542.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    We'd never be out of court if we were to react like this every time christians voiced their persecution complex.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    gawker wrote: »
    The gardai have confirmed to former Fine Gael election candidate John Colgan
    This seems to be the relevant part. The guy seems to think that when someone running for public office is condemned (even indirectly) from the pulpit, he loses his chance. He's probably correct, but then that's democracy in action.

    Doesn't seem to have got far in politics since 1982, but maybe that's what bothers him.
    the_syco wrote: »
    Although I agree with him to a point, the fact that Mr Colgan was in a RC church in the first place says to me that he was looking for a fight...!
    Maybe he read the speech in a newspaper?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,739 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    how succesful was the Colgan, lead in the 'Campaign to Separate Church and State' in the late 1990s, or how good was its try

    Campaign to Separate Church and State Ltd v Minister for Education [1998] 3 IR 321, [1998] 2 ILRM 81, in which a challenge to the constitutionality of the State funding of school chaplains was taken by an organisation opposed to State involvement with religion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    I really don't see any 'incitement to hatred' in the bishop's statements. Looks to me like Colgan was looking for something to complain about - a personal vendetta perhaps..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    'Incitement to vote against' might be more accurate.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Potentially dodgy reasons for doing it and the likelihood of the DPP throwing the case out aside, it's nice to see that it CAN be done. I wouldn't like to have been in Colgan's shoes if he'd said that about a bishop 50 years ago.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Sarky wrote: »
    Potentially dodgy reasons for doing it and the likelihood of the DPP throwing the case out aside, it's nice to see that it CAN be done. I wouldn't like to have been in Colgan's shoes if he'd said that about a bishop 50 years ago.

    Ironically if you did it 50 years ago you'd be hunted down by the 'moral' majority. How's that for insighting hatred?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    'Incitement to vote against' might be more accurate.
    To be honest, I don’t think even that one stands up. There’s nothing in the sermon about voting, nothing about elections, nothing about politics. Colgan himself hasn’t been an election candidate in the last 30 years (and, when he was, he ran on the same ticket as Alice Glenn - there’s irony!). In any event neither Colgan nor his organisation are mentioned in the sermon.

    Colgan’s complaint of “incitement to hatred” rests mainly on the fact that the bishop says that the church is being “attacked from the outside by a secular and godless culture”. But he mentions that as an illustration of his claim that the present time is “certainly a testing one for the church”, and he immediately offers a second illustration - the church is “rocked from the inside by the sins and crimes of priests and consecrated people”.

    The notion that this amounts to “incitement to hatred” against people of a secular mindset is just bizarre. If anybody’s behaviour is likely to “incite hatred” against secularists, it’s Colgan’s. His posturing, his attempt to have the bishop prosecuted for this sermon, presents secularists as vindictive, hysterical, insecure, intolerant and oppressive. Though, frankly, Colgan’s actions here are likely to incite not so much hatred as ridicule and derision. Let’s hope that it’s ridicule and derision directed against Colgan in particular rather than against secularists and sceptics in general.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    First off I don't like "incitement to hatred" laws. With that said though I can see how he sees it as incitement to hatred. If you claim your group is being attacked by another group you are pushing your group members at best to be defensive and worst to launch a counter attack. And how can you not hate someone if you percieve them as attacking your way of life?
    Still... meh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    There’s nothing in the sermon about voting, nothing about elections, nothing about politics. Colgan himself hasn’t been an election candidate in the last 30 years
    I'm guessing he's resentful of the fact that as an atheist he could never make it as a FG candidate, and maybe he didn't support the socialist policies of left wing parties, which two factors would have effectively locked him out of politics altogether.

    Even today, you can see the tensions between Labour and FG.
    To fully understand this, you have to look at where they came from;

    A very strong labour movement developed in Dublin after the 1913 lockout. They were anti hierarchy, some members were pro communist. The RCC did not like them. One of the founding members of the Citizen Army was a declared atheist, and later went to Spain to fight against the Fascists in the civil war there. At the time, Fine Gael were effectively "the Blueshirts" who marched on Dublin to seize power, as RCC backed proto-fascists under their founder and leader Eoin O'Duffy. They were repelled by the Dubliners (not the band). O'Duffy also went to Spain, and fought for the Fascists.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,997 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    First off I don't like "incitement to hatred" laws.
    in what sense?


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    recedite wrote: »
    They were repelled by the Dubliners (not the band).

    That'd have been awesome :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Galvasean wrote: »
    That'd have been awesome :(
    In the movie version, I vote that we depict the band doing the repelling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    I'm guessing he's resentful of the fact that as an atheist he could never make it as a FG candidate, and maybe he didn't support the socialist policies of left wing parties, which two factors would have effectively locked him out of politics altogether.
    He was an FG candidate in 1982; we don't know that he was an atheist then. (And, if he was, he was the kind of atheist who would share a ticket with Alice Glenn.)

    Given the kind of judgment and common sense he displays in the present episode, I think we can explain his failure to advance very far in his political career without reference to his religious beliefs, or lack of them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    He was an FG candidate in 1982; we don't know that he was an atheist then.
    And if he was, he would have been unwise to broadcast it.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    In the movie version, I vote that we depict the band doing the repelling.
    ...and as the clean-cut Blueshirts approached Kilmainham, they were were met with the terrifying sight and sounds of a raucous band of bearded barbarians jumping up and down, and waving banjo's over their heads, at which the fascists broke ranks and fled back down the road westwards...


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    ...and as the clean-cut Blueshirts approached Kilmainham, they were were met with the terrifying sight and sounds of a raucous band of bearded barbarians jumping up and down, and waving banjo's over their heads, at which the fascists broke ranks and fled back down the road westwards...
    "I've got a beard, and I'm not afraid to use it!"


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    in what sense?

    In the sense that I'd prefer freedom of speech where ever possible and hold individuals responsible if they allowed themselves to be incited. I guess I just wish we didn't need them as people should realise when someone is saying something stupid and lose respect for them rather than say well he's in my tribe so I guess I agree.


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