thinking about horses

mike hilux · 01-09-2014 7:40pm #1

Hello.

I have a few questions that might sound silly but if you bear with me I would appreciate it.

I am a dairy farmer and am thinking about diversifying. I'm gettin out of dairy and into sucklers because I don't like the lifestyle of milking cows.

The main block of the farm consists of 84 grazing acres and 20 acres of natural woodlands that is on a fairly steep slope. There is a river flowing through this blockof land and about a mile of pathways for the cows to get around. There is another half mile of partway going through the woods. All these pathways are easily able to take a tractor and I am planning on putting in more to allow easy movement of cattle.

There are old buildings that I often wondered about converting into tourist accommodation and maybe putting in a few pree made log cabins along the river for the same purpose. The farm backs onto about 700 acres of forestry owned by coillte with access roads already in place.

Iv always been around the farm and after college I worked in a few horse studs and livery yards but never learned to ride a horse.but have often lunged and backed them along with some foaling and all thatgeos with it.

My questions are: does anyone know if in the future would it be an idea to learn to ride. and buy some quite horses. Do up the old houses and offer some short trekking on the farm along with accommodation for tourists. Also maybe a petting farm and even a weekend party with pig on a spit or something to that affect

The next thing I was wondering was what is access like for the forestry near by. Plenty of people walk in it and the odd evening you can hear people going around on motorcycles. I was wondering that if the above idea worked then is their anything against getting permission to bring groups into the woods during the summer for longer horse treks. I realise I would probably need a trained horse person to do this.

Also if I spent a few bob on the horses (I was thinking coloured horses) could I have a side line horse breeding where I could put the in goal in January and have them for riding from may to September.

As I'm sure you can tell I don't really have a huge knowledge about this side of horses so any and all information that can be passed on is indeed welcome. (p.s I'm thirty years old so I don't know will this have a bearing on learning to ride or anything but I have always been quite good with horses and cattle)

marizpan · 02-09-2014 9:40am

It's hard to make money from breeding, so this idea is too high risk and could be looked at further down the road.

The log cabins is a good idea with trekking. You will have to get (paid) permission from coillte.
You should visit slieve aughty in east galway. They do this very well!

They have a good website but you should visit the place if you where serious and talk to them.
What part of the country are you in?

mike hilux · 02-09-2014 2:54pm

Hello.

I'm in south Tipperary. I was basically walking the farm yesterday and had a few ideas about it.

Any thought on putting in a cross countrycourse on 20 acres of grassland. Around the outside of several fields. I imagine it would be just over a mile but I will have to measure it.

Also there is a hill going from the river to the yard. It's about 4 furlongs and it starts out as a good drag but steadily decreases until almost flat. Would this be suitable as a gallop.

In our own woods I was thinking of sending in a digger to cut channels through the trees and then level them out. They would have to be made as the ground is too steep to traverse.

As always I appreciate any comments and advice

Regards Mike.

marizpan · 02-09-2014 3:59pm

Gallop is out. The massive € outlay would produce too low a return.

Have you an idea on the return on capital for proposed investments/business plans? I imagine an annual return of a minimum 15%

Make sure your decisions are very rational and not just what you would like on your farm.
The tourism sector would really be worth looking into. Visit several of these places and talk to the people. Follow their business model if they are successful. Don't consider a project unless it has a high enough return.
Visit these places and then consider putting together a business plan. There may be funding available for Irish food/agri tourism.

mike hilux · 02-09-2014 4:34pm

I'm literally only after thinking of this and looking up stuff on the internet and thought I would get people's opinions on boards. I'll bring any information to the ploughing match this month also and start from there.

Thank you for warning me about the gallop also. We are not really a thriving tourists destination but have a few things that seem to have been forgotten about in the last few years. I'm fairly close to kildalton ag college and was thinking of something that would suit them with the equestrian courses and Kilkenny and Waterford is are about 25 miles away in opposite directions.

I'm very far away from realising this venture and don't know if its viable at all.

If the gallop is out then I could also put in a course of about 3.5 km but where the river cuts across us I only have one point of crossing so it would be a figure of 8 more so than a loop. But maybe a novice circuit and probably intermediate then?? Iknow I need to do a lot more work on the drawing up stage but all ideas are appreciated.

mike hilux · 03-09-2014 2:35am

Can anyone recommend a busier forum for equine matters. The farming treads on this are great but I'm a little surprised how empty this side of the website actually is.

Thanks again.

may06 · 03-09-2014 10:36am

The investment would be huge. How much financially are you prepared to part with or do you have the funds to finance it all? Such a venture sounds good in theory, but, for the most part - it will be a seasonal venture. How do you propose to run & maintain it 12 months of the year and return a profit on it? Do you work fulltime or do you have other work that you can draw a wage from? It could be a long time before you ever see a return on this project that will allow you to live within your means. How will you finance it, have you a nice bank manager?

mike hilux · 03-09-2014 1:37pm

Hello.

Thanks for your reply. As regards the investment I realise that the buildings would have ti be gutted and redone. The pathways for the cattle are already there and more need to be put in. The forestry is there which I am thinking would be the main selling point although I know I have no idea about prices of permits. I am looking into putting up a shed for calving cows near the house and if it came to it then these would become my stables.

I actually have a shed full of large logs (some are 2 ft in diameter) that are in 17 ft lengths so was thinking of these for any jumps that are going in. The horses are probably the second largest investment after the cottages but i have the land to keep them.

There is an old shed on the farm with a silage slab of 24 foot and two 22 ft leantoos that were used for wintering cattle on straw. This structure is 64ft long. Stables could be put un here if needed and put q lunging ring outside it.

I'm not going against you at all and realise the investment is substantial. Im only stating what is already in place so that maybe you could advise me further. but if I start off small and increase in time I thought it might be a runner.

My sort if plan is to get back into one of the studs that had me before and maybe go back ti college and get a feel for the craft. Tip away on things at home and do as much as I can before looking for a loan to bring it all together.

Am I just kidding myself here.
Mike.

granturismo · 03-09-2014 7:16pm

mike hilux wrote: »

...

Am I just kidding myself here.
Mike.

Possibly. If you were an ex competitor or have family connections in the equestrian sector, then maybe you're connections would attract business and you could design and build your jumps. I am probably in your prospective customer base and dont feel confident in the amount of equestrian experience in your posts. Maybe you havent included relevant details.

Have you a few years to retrain or possibly employ or subcontract someone else. Who will assess the horses you purchase, are you prepared to hire one or two experienced & qualified instructors, who will design and build your courses.

Have you looked at the Aire website or websearched, to find similar existing businesses and maybe visit them to check out their facilities, see who they employ etc?

mike hilux · 03-09-2014 9:44pm

Hello. Cheers for the post.

Well the short answer is that if I thought the market was there then I would do whatever would need to be done. I would give myself about 5 to 10 years to do this. I have an interest in the sector but realise that if it was to be done then it would have to incorporate all safety standards from getting professionals to build the course and advice on all facilities.

I'm basically just trouble shooting here and looking for opinions. When I have this information then I'll be just taking the first step then. I imagine I'll look for employment in the industry and probably go back to college and do an equine management cert. Couple this with riding lessons and putting in a certain amount of infrastructure after that.

Iv worked with horses before and iv never thought their was any magic behind it. But I have always been good with cattle and I wasn't bad with horses except for lack of experience I found. but I got on with it. I suppose I have only 2 good years of working with horses behind me.

I do know people that are embedded in the industry and have made contacts over the last few years. I rent land to a gentleman who used to breed horses for forestry work and I still do a bit of maintenance work for an x international show jumper and that family. They run a thorough bred stud as well as breed show jumpers for elite levels. (I'm not boasting here or anything sure none of their achievements are anything to do with me). but just like in my last post I'm stating the strings to my bow.

I am a complete novice and I accept that but it was graft that got me into these people's yards and no connections or even experience. And I always got glowing references (but maybe that's boasting) I don't know if this has any bearing but I went from not knowing that you walk and work a horse on the left side to lunging. Long reigning and backing in nine months but I was never trusted to mount. I didn't think that was bad progress??

The only thing I have for definite is a land base and interest in doing it. And as said in my first post. I'm looking for options to diversify the farm. To be honest I would even look at just being a proprietor and maintain the set up and letting a manager or instructor take care of all horse matters.

Actually that would be fantastic because I could just learn horsemanship from him but I'd think that idea would be too good to be true.

I worked on a livery yard abroad that had a five hundred acre set up and the elderly woman who owned it was very active but just left every one get on with it. She had a xc course in place and got in instructors to give lessons in her facilities. Had a few horses herself and basically told everyone what she wanted done. That basically is where this idea came from.

I have not been to any other places to see set ups yet as I'm only after arriving at this idea and just thought this might be a good first port of call for opinions. The ball is still out on weather this can be done or not but I'm still not even on the ground floor so if their are any more opinions then I welcome them

Yours sincerely. Mike.

granturismo · 04-09-2014 10:02am

mike hilux wrote: »

... I still do a bit of maintenance work for an x international show jumper and that family. They run a thorough bred stud as well as breed show jumpers for elite levels.. .

They might be your best sounding board as they know the industry and the area. Best of luck with whatever path you choose.

mike hilux · 04-09-2014 7:04pm

Hello again

I was thinking about what was said in above posts in regards to getting professionals to build a xc course but was just wondering if I didn't want to go to that standard at first would their be a market for having a "hacking out center" if such a thing exists.

What I mean is that I would start out with my tourist accommodation and offer light trekking in the forestry as well as the farm. Say checking livestock and the like. Then put tracks through my own woods with a few optional jumps for people who just want to bring their own horses for a ride out

Then on the twenty acres of flat land I have I could put in xc jumps around the outside of the field in a continues loop that are not for competition but for people who want to practice their jumping.

Is their much interest in a facility that allows hacking through woods. Practice on a xc style loop as well as leisurely canters through forestry. With optional tourist accommodation and farm tours in the spring and summer.

Even the idea of putting in an outdoor arena and getting in qualified instructors for schooling in different disciplinescould be looked into.

Still looking for feedback if at all possible. I'm going to approach some old bosses and people I worked with and see if they could give me some more insight.

Mike.

Rips · 04-09-2014 10:37pm

What sort of facilities are already around?

I second the suggestion that you have a look at places like Slieve Aughty.

They do have their own land and a XC course/arena, but they use Coilte forestry land to allow people access to go hacking on either their own horses on hire horses. They have built up a huge business in horsey hospitality. I would say the actual riding school/breeding part of their operation constitutes very little of their income.

Also, look at the Munny Trail and the Old Forge - they have set up 'Glamping' which is basically luxury camping and geared toward horse riders.

Trec and Endurance Ireland would be interested in venues which can accommodate riders, horses and requires minimal access to some XC fences (Trec) and miles of hacking. Having a sand arena is a bonus and would let you accommodate other events.

I would steer away from breeding and also, even owning horses if you can avoid it. (unless you want to for your own personal ends)

There is plenty of diversification in owning a venue and some of it can be established with very little capital if you have the land and are prepared to put the work in yourself. (building XC fences, paddocks, renovating outbuildings)

Are there good roads for riding in your area? Is the area scenic? As this would be important to make use of amenities outside of your own private land. Both Trec and Endurance riders utilise the roads and Coilte forestry as well the venue.

Rips · 04-09-2014 10:44pm

Just to give you an idea, the Trec National Championships were held at Stradbally Hall this year.

There were 50+ competitors, most of which would have booked into local B&B's for the weekend. The rest would have camped and paid €10 or so for camping. They also would have paid €10 or so to corral or stable their horses.

There also would have been a overhead charge included in their entry fee that hired the venue.

The facilities used were... well mainly ... the land.

No arena was utilised. The main two phases were held on the land, one of which utilised a small number of XC fences, through a small amount of forestry and the water obstacles. The third phase was 'hacking', and actually, the horses had to be loaded up and taken offsite to avail of better routes.

I believe the licence fee for the year to use Coilte forestry as an establishment owner is about 1500k.

mike hilux · 04-09-2014 11:19pm

Thank you greatly for your post. Plenty food for thought. I'll go through everything tomorrow and get back to you about facilities if that's ok. A quick question when you say 1500k do you mean €1500. Or do I add a few more 0's to that.

Rips · 04-09-2014 11:46pm

€1,500. This would allow you to lead out rides, guided rides, or charge people to use your 'pass' (you would give them a wristband or a tabard to show they are using the trail on your pass)

The going rate would be about €10-20 for 2/3hrs. Most people don't set a time restriction though.

Places like Slieve Aughty have maps of the area available to give out, available from OSI, and they have used old horse shoes painted different colours, placed on different trails to show people what sort of route they are taking (difficulty/time)

For me as a rider to get an annual pass to use the forestry (rates vary slightly and not all are accessible) its about €150 annually. Some Coilte run forestry depends on the area manager ... you really would need to get on their good side

I think it would be very logical to explore setting up some tourist accommodation, that allows pets and could accommodate horse and offering hacking/trails and even walking holidays to start and expand from there. Low capital, apart from the accommodation.

Marketing would be critical, facebook page, website, flyers in your local horsey venues/tackshop, the occasional ad on Donedeal etc.

mike hilux · 07-09-2014 7:59pm

Hello.

Sorry about the delay in replying. As facilities go in the immediate area then they are fairly sparse. There are 4 pubs but none serve food but about 4 miles away is the local town with a variety of restaurants and accommodation. Plenty of sports clubs and even a drama club and musical society with regular shows on.

There are a few tourist attractions very close by and the forestry has some beautiful views or surrounding mountains and valleys along with farmland. There is plenty of local interest in horses around with the equine courses in the local ag. College and a thriving local hunt. Plenty of riding schools also but none offering activities on the land base in the scale I'm contemplating.

Although the farm is a bit spread out with sheds following suit. With a bit of work I could convert cattle sheds into stables for over 30 horses but I'm not too keen on offering livery but horses could be wintered here in diy style with most stables having direct access to private farm roadways for exercise. And maybe even the option if deep littering that can be cleaned out using a tractor.

Some ideas I had that maybe someone could advise me on are:

On one block there is just under 40 acres which includes 20 of woodland with 2 major farm roads about 5m wide and tracks going between them. with 18 acres of unlevel ground that could incorporate a schooling area with a variety of cx jumps and obstacles.

Another bloc that has a circumference of about a mile which I thought would be good as a xc course that has a river with a private bridge and putting together a water schooling area. These 2 bloc are split by a road however which is not overly busy but still fast moving.

The next block joins the river and the last block stated. It's 27 acres of land with a continuous gentle slope. The top of which is fairly level and with very good drainage. It is just over 4 furlongs long and I was thinking of a grass gallop but not sure if this is a runner. Also the dwelling house is in the corner of this land so if I was to look at accommodation then it would be here with log cabins along the river and near the yard. There is a km of farm road here also and it is where I would put an outdoor arena if ever I was going to.

On the other side of a quite country road to this above block is 15 acres and this is where I have access to a forestry of 1000 acres. That assuming I get permission to use it of course.

This dividing road is very quite except at silage time but passes the local primary school so tends to be slow moving but you will inevitably get the few boy racers. This is the main reason I can see fir not wanting to promote trekking on the public roads due to rider safety.

Both roads can be crossed in a straight line at different points where I own the land on both sides and offer clear lines of sight so their are no blind chances needing to be taken. There are only two occasions for needing to cross the roads and the busier road had space to park on the required side with potentialy 10 stables anyway.

The above is a rundown of the whole place with all options I could see. I realise that probably not all options are suitable but any opinions are welcomed and appreciated. Sorry for the mammoth post but I wanted to put every thing in.

Sincerely. Mike

Rips · 08-09-2014 1:47am

No livery can be a messy game, its difficult here, as a horse owner its very hard to find a yard offering DIY or assisted livery. You need to have a lot of experience as a horseman to run a livery yard, its labour intensive, a huge tie-down.

I left my last livery yard because I was unimpressed with the way the owner handled an emergency, a horse broke its leg in the field and it was just really clear that a)he'd never had to deal with anything like that before b)had no plan in place, emergency contacts - he'd never even thought about it.

If you have large barns you can get temporary stabling and use as a permanent fixture...
http://www.cheval-liberte.co.uk/hyppic_temporary_stables.htm

Another option for internal stabling is to use galvanished gates ...

(Though the bottom 4ft of these should be panelled even just with light ply just to stop horses putting a leg through) Easy access with a tractor.

I would think 15-20 stables would be plenty for the sort of thing you want to get into, especially initially. Also, plenty of people are happy to corral horses if they know the option is available. Several small areas in one secure paddock (need only be an acre) Trec and Endurance riders even bring their own pens.

Maybe speak to the local hunt also, the season is coming, and some hunts may even be keen to start building hunt jumps into your hedgerows for you if you gave them access for a meet or two.
They could start you off with a few hunt jumps and also give you advice on what are nice runs and tracks, it would spread the word too.

Its hard to get an appreciation of it. I don't think the roads would be issue if as you say, they are easy to cross straight over. And yes, you would need to have your accommodation close enough to the yard/stabling. Not right beside it, but easy access, or at least have an access road.

Plenty of yards do not have a huge space for trailer parking near the yard/accommodation, but they do have the road in place to drive down, drop off horse and equipment and then go back and park up. That obviously doens't work though if you have parking in one area, accommodation in another, and stabling somewhere else. Accommodation and stabling need to be within walking distance.

mike hilux · 08-09-2014 4:37pm

Hello. When it comes to accommodation. Stables and parking. My idea was to have parking near any stables for that riders. These would not be more than 100 m or so away. But the accommodation is something that I would not like to spread around just because of security so my idea was to put this in a central location with plenty parking

So people there for the day can either unload their horse into a stable then park the box and car in a car back and take the short walk back to the horse. When leaving then they simply pull in the box toload up and go.

Whereas people who would be spending the night would do the same but after riding they would leave the horse in the stable if the stables closer to the accommodation were already full and bring their box and car back closer to their accommodation for the night and return in the morning.

Could anyone advise me. If I can not get permission to enter the forestry. Would all the other options be worth pursuing on their own. Also I'll be running the herd of cattle on the land so to utilise the grass. There shouldn't be any problems with this?? Granted they will have to be fencedaway from the horses and activities when being used.

Thanks again. Mike.

marizpan · 08-09-2014 4:45pm

You really should visit loads of different places before you narrow down any plan.

None of these options may be financially viable.
How much can you invest?
How much of a return do you expect?
Do you want multiple income streams?

The demand for livery in your area is low. The equestrian students are fully serviced by the college and have no need for further facilities.

mike hilux · 08-09-2014 5:59pm

Hello

I agree completely that I have to visit other yards and centers around the country and I'm heading to the plowing in a few weeks and to find out about some of these places is high on the agenda. I looked up slieve aughtys website and it seems a fantastic place. I looked up several others also.

When it comes to investment and returns then I just haven't got that far yet. Sure how do I know how much to invest if I don't even have it clear in my head what I'm investing in. I'm also getting multiple income streams presently so it will just be a matter of swapping one collective for another.

Even for investment. I have to do a bit of work to the farm at present and while I'm doing it sure it wouldn't hurt to make it multifunctional if possible. Could you give me an idea of investments needed for some of the ideas listed in my previous posts.

As for livery and the college.well iv said I'm not keen on the livery idea. Also when you say that the college is completely catered for. In your opinion so would that mean that any facilities that I may offer would be of no interest to them at all.

What I mean is that if I had 8 acres of schooling jumps in a field that is beside 20 acres of woodland trails with safe secure parking and a yard to do what ever needs to be done to the horse and that being only one block then I thought that would be a facility worth driving a few miles over the road to see. Then if they liked it .hopefully they would tell others.

In an ideal situation their friends would come down for the weekend and keep their horses with me for the night while they availed of my facilities even if their college friends went back to the college. I would hope word would speed like this.

Do you know what facilities they have for the horses in the college these days. I know they have the indoor arena and the grounds are fairly big in scale but I never heard of them having other things. Cheers for your input

Sincerely. Mike.

marizpan · 08-09-2014 6:09pm

What I mean is how much money have you available/access to to invest?

You should contact the college to confirm but I'm sure they would have no interest for several reasons.

They have an in and outdoor arena
Xcountry course that they never use due to health and safety.
They never really ride on the grounds either just in the arenas.
Students is not your market: they have no deposible income
They have no transport for horses or students so its not possible that they would bring 20-30 horses and students over for a hack.

mike hilux · 08-09-2014 6:48pm

Ok. I never thought about transport to much so thanks for bringing that up.

I went to kildalton years ago but was not boarding so didn't see to much of the equine side as I was doing agriculture. I went to gurteen then to finish off and that's where I saw the horses and took any interest.

I don't want to go into too much details about the situation here as I would like to keep a certain amount of animosity but I'm guessing you may be fairly local to me ans I was just wondering if I could maybe pm you and pick your brain. If not then I completely understand.

The short of it is that over the next few years I am selling the dairy herd and will use this money to put in infrastructure on the farm. Also their is land a distance away that I will probably sell in the future as it is of no real benefit to me to hold it.

This money I'm hoping to use to set up a viable income source that in an ideal situation can be ran beside the home farm. This horse venture is only one idea beside many other ideas that I am trying to gather information about. The only criteria I have is that I'm hoping to enjoy what I do inthe future. I also have good credit in the bank if I was stuck.

marizpan · 08-09-2014 7:17pm

Pm sent

thinking about horses

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