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Shaggy as a pundit

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24

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    #32
    buck65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,969 ✭✭✭buck65


    I find Shaggy hard to watch, he is very slow to criticise Irish players, selectors , policies etc. He's still playing and sometimes when things are obvious he won't say them if they're critical.
    Good to hear he had a pop at Murray, it's more of this we need, but I can't bear him at the moment.
    Sheehan is truly atrocious too, Quinlan is quite good but maybe too relaxed in his delivery a bit like Murray.


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    #33
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    Lapsed Catholic wrote: »
    Murray didn't have his finest day at the office and Reddan is a quality player BUT the s/h can only play with the ball that is presented to him. Italy were worn down by the time Reddan appeared and the supply of ball had improved.

    Murray got decent ball in the first half but took the momentum out of it himself. Often times he stopped to look left and right and then took a step. Reddan went straight in knowing where he was going to send the ball, ball got out fast to Sexton who had time and momentum to use it. I'm sure the fact Italy were worn down helped but even with clean ball Murray was slow and indecisive.
    I also believe that Murray is playing to instructions from the side line and made no breaks that I can remember

    He made a few unnecessary attempts to carry not break. Reddan utilised the space around him because he's an very very fast thinker and is pretty experienced. Murray was slow to react, his indecisiveness and inability to get his receivers on the front foot limited everyone else around him.
    . I think that he'll stay with Murray forthe French game given his strength and size over Reddan but he has to pick a genuine 7 and Ryan in the 2nd row. Heaslip was outplayed by Parisse, (Heaslip is a Lion, that shouldn't happen) and O'Brien was anomynous. The backrow is unbalanced. Ferris at 6, O'Brien at 8 and O'Mahony at 7.

    I cant see him sticking with Murray, France wont tire so waiting until the 50th minute to play is as good as forfeiting. I agree Ryan should start, whatever doubt their was about this before I think its clear enough now too that he's a level above DOC. Parisse is an incredible player who routinely outplays his opposite number and gets man of the match from the losing side, I dont see what Heaslip being a Lion has to do with it. He has a decent game, got through a good bit of work like SOB and Ferris. If they had more momentum in the first half I'm sure they would have racked up a few carries to add a gloss to their performances but they were not poor or anonymous.


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    #34
    Lapsed Catholic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Lapsed Catholic


    Parisse is playing for a third tier team yet managed to outplay the current Lion, Ireland and Leinster No.8 His status as a Lion is very important. Parisse led by example, Heaslip was rather anomynous.


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    #35
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    Lapsed Catholic wrote: »
    Parisse is playing for a third tier team yet managed to outplay the current Lion, Ireland and Leinster No.8 His status as a Lion is very important. Parisse led by example, Heaslip was rather anomynous.

    So the fact that Parisse is Italian means he cant be better than Heaslip ? Parisse led by example because he was captain, it was his role to lead. It wasnt Heaslips role to lead the team or to take all responsibility on himself as Parisse does. Heaslip is a cog in the Irish rugby team, Parisse IS the Italian rugby team. He wasnt anonymous he worked hard, got a good few turnovers and didnt show any weaknesses. I'm sure he'd love to get the ball in space and have a go but he cant if he doesnt get the ball and the space which not many people did because the ball was so slow in the first 50 minutes.


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    #36
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Lapsed Catholic wrote: »
    Parisse is playing for a third tier team yet managed to outplay the current Lion, Ireland and Leinster No.8 His status as a Lion is very important. Parisse led by example, Heaslip was rather anomynous.

    Heaslip has been in fantastic form this season, but because he isn't making barnstorming runs anymore he is not as visible, it doesn't mean he isn't playing well. When you have SOB and Ferris in the backrow, Heaslip doesn't need to carry, whereas Parisse is far and away the most important player in the Italian team.


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    #37
    WeeBushy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭WeeBushy


    Lapsed Catholic wrote: »
    Parisse is playing for a third tier team yet managed to outplay the current Lion, Ireland and Leinster No.8 His status as a Lion is very important. Parisse led by example, Heaslip was rather anomynous.

    Parisse is arguably the best No. 8 in the world. No shame whatsoever being second best to him. After most games the opposition No. 8 comes out second best against Parisse, he's an amzing rugby player.


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    #38
    smurphy29
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭smurphy29


    Thanks MungBean, great replies to that blather about Murray and Heaslip.

    I am just loving this 'Genuine 7' nonsense right now. Can people stop peddling what they hear on RTE?

    For the record: we do not have a genuine 7 of international class. Peter O'Mahony is not a genuine 7. He is a 6, who can play 7 - like SOB. The best genuine 7s in the country are Shane Jennings and Niall Ronan (injured). Play Jenno if you want a 'Genuine Seven'. Can we stop this nonsense?

    Sorry for dragging us off topic. Shaggy is a terrific pundit, who "needs to be given more gametime" to be "developed", to use two boards stock phrases.


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    #39
    prospect
    Registered Users Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭prospect


    Criticising his hair and accent.

    This is the rugby forum, please spare us the socceresque soap opera commentary.



    I liked Shane's efforts, mostly because he outshone Hook. But I do thing he would benefit if he wasn't actively affiliated with the players on the pitch.

    I'd love to see Horgan and a similarly talented commentator from Munster (Quinlan maybe) along with O'Shea.


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    #40
    WeeBushy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭WeeBushy


    prospect wrote: »
    Criticising his hair and accent.

    This is the rugby forum, please spare us the socceresque soap opera commentary.



    I liked Shane's efforts, mostly because he outshone Hook. But I do thing he would benefit if he wasn't actively affiliated with the players on the pitch.

    I'd love to see Horgan and a similarly talented commentator from Munster (Quinlan maybe) along with O'Shea.

    Completely agree. I think Quinlan is another very good pundit. Himself, Horgan, and O'Shea would be a great lineup. Just need someone to replace McGuirk, Williams anyone?


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    #41
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    Lapsed Catholic wrote: »
    Murray didn't have his finest day at the office and Reddan is a quality player BUT the s/h can only play with the ball that is presented to him. Italy were worn down by the time Reddan appeared and the supply of ball had improved. I also believe that Murray is playing to instructions from the side line and made no breaks that I can remember. I think that he'll stay with Murray forthe French game given his strength and size over Reddan but he has to pick a genuine 7 and Ryan in the 2nd row. Heaslip was outplayed by Parisse, (Heaslip is a Lion, that shouldn't happen) and O'Brien was anomynous. The backrow is unbalanced. Ferris at 6, O'Brien at 8 and O'Mahony at 7.

    should we change the jersey colour to red also?

    Murray was dreadful


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    #42
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 16,981 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    WeeBushy wrote: »
    Completely agree. I think Quinlan is another very good pundit. Himself, Horgan, and O'Shea would be a great lineup. Just need someone to replace McGuirk, Williams anyone?

    The next anchor will be Dara O'Brian (sp?), I'd say. Montrose likes to keep things in house. I like the look of your lineup though; at least until O'Shea takes the Ireland job!


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    #43
    Mr.Applepie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,079 ✭✭✭Mr.Applepie


    Lapsed Catholic wrote: »
    Murray didn't have his finest day at the office and Reddan is a quality player BUT the s/h can only play with the ball that is presented to him. Italy were worn down by the time Reddan appeared and the supply of ball had improved. I also believe that Murray is playing to instructions from the side line and made no breaks that I can remember. I think that he'll stay with Murray forthe French game given his strength and size over Reddan but he has to pick a genuine 7 and Ryan in the 2nd row. Heaslip was outplayed by Parisse, (Heaslip is a Lion, that shouldn't happen) and O'Brien was anomynous. The backrow is unbalanced. Ferris at 6, O'Brien at 8 and O'Mahony at 7.

    Murray was given the ball on a plate, he just took forever to do anything with it when he finally arrived at the ruck. Also look at the technique between Murray & Reddan. Murray always seems to stand up out of the ruck, then passes. Reddan actually passes from the base of the ruck.

    Murray attempted to make plenty of breaks, that was part of his problem. He'd try and snipe, get swallowed up and not appear at the base of the ruck for 2 phases. By that point all the momentum would be gone. Murray sniped into traffic, Reddan only did it when there was space.

    Parrise is probably the best 8 in the world and would walk onto nearly every team.

    You do know POM is a 6 playing 7 and actually isn't a genuine 7?


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    #44
    Lapsed Catholic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Lapsed Catholic


    Bamboozle, I don't support Munster so I couldn't give a continental what colour you suggest Murray wears.

    To everyone else may I apologise for expressing my opinion on Murray and St.Jamie. Parisse, Picomloes and Harryordinary guy have all played him off the park in recent years. But I daren't say that.


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    #45
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    Lapsed Catholic wrote: »
    Bamboozle, I don't support Munster so I couldn't give a continental what colour you suggest Murray wears.

    To everyone else may I apologise for expressing my opinion on Murray and St.Jamie. Parisse, Picomloes and Harryordinary guy have all played him off the park in recent years. But I daren't say that.

    my apologies, however i wonder how anyone can, provincial loyalty aside, defend that performance from Murray while also knock Heaslip & SOB and suggest a novice & inexperienced 6 in POM as the solution to an unbalanced back row.

    When did Picamoles outplay Heaslip? furthermore can you suggest a no. 8 who has not been outplayed by Parisee in recent years?

    Heaslip's role in the Irish team has changed, its quiet simple, dont expect maurading runs from him as its not in his job description under DK.


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    #46
    Lapsed Catholic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Lapsed Catholic


    bamboozle wrote: »
    my apologies, however i wonder how anyone can, provincial loyalty aside, defend that performance from Murray while also knock Heaslip & SOB and suggest a novice & inexperienced 6 in POM as the solution to an unbalanced back row.

    When did Picamoles outplay Heaslip? furthermore can you suggest a no. 8 who has not been outplayed by Parisee in recent years?

    Heaslip's role in the Irish team has changed, its quiet simple, dont expect maurading runs from him as its not in his job description under DK.

    Can you point out where I knocked SO'B? As to defending Murry, how can anyone, provincial loyalty aside, not criticise Heaslip for some of his performances over the last few years. Look back to the pre RWC game v France, Picomoles had Heaslip in his pocket. I agree re DK and his lack of game plan but did you ever think that Murray may also be playing to orders like Heaslip?


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    #47
    smurphy29
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭smurphy29


    Lapsed, would you give up the anti-Heaslip crusade. He has been one of Ireland's outstanding players over the last five years - durable, consistent, frequently outstanding. To go and cherrypick a handful of quiet games against him isn't going to stand up. The list of his good games would be much longer - the grand slam season and the november games which followed it, his superb performances away to England and France in 2010 and his outstanding effort against New Zealand later that year. Oh, and three weeks ago gainst Wales, when he was our best forward. To name but a few that spring to mind. He has outplayed all the names you mention.


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    #48
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    Lapsed Catholic wrote: »
    Can you point out where I knocked SO'B? As to defending Murry, how can anyone, provincial loyalty aside, not criticise Heaslip for some of his performances over the last few years. Look back to the pre RWC game v France, Picomoles had Heaslip in his pocket. I agree re DK and his lack of game plan but did you ever think that Murray may also be playing to orders like Heaslip?

    post no 31 in this thread you said SOB was anonymous. for argument sake i'll agree with you that Picamoles had heaslip in his pocket in august, by the same token heaslip had picamoles in his pocket in the HC semi final...DK's tactics for ireland have heaslip playing far closer to the action.

    of course murray was playing to orders the same orders Reddan was playing to when he replaced Murray, the difference being Murray was hesitant and crabbing 2 steps before passing and was far far less decisive when on the pitch.


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    #49
    leftleg
    Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭leftleg


    Lapsed Catholic wrote: »
    Bamboozle, I don't support Munster so I couldn't give a continental what colour you suggest Murray wears.

    To everyone else may I apologise for expressing my opinion on Murray and St.Jamie. Parisse, Picomloes and Harryordinary guy have all played him off the park in recent years. But I daren't say that.

    You know Murray; you just mentioned it in another thread; how can you give any impartial opinion on this; fwiw your opinion re Murray should be ignored based on the fact that hes one of your mates ffs!!


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    #50
    Lapsed Catholic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Lapsed Catholic


    bamboozle wrote: »
    post no 31 in this thread you said SOB was anonymous. for argument sake i'll agree with you that Picamoles had heaslip in his pocket in august, by the same token heaslip had picamoles in his pocket in the HC semi final...DK's tactics for ireland have heaslip playing far closer to the action.

    of course murray was playing to orders the same orders Reddan was playing to when he replaced Murray, the difference being Murray was hesitant and crabbing 2 steps before passing and was far far less decisive when on the pitch.

    I did indeed say he was anomynous, but I think I also said that I would play him at 8 with Ferris and O'Mahoney. (age is making me forgetful)

    On the Heaslip and Murray topics lets agree to disagree otherwise we'll go around in circles for ever. If :) Heaslip is picked aginst France I genuinely hope he is MOM, can't see it happening.


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    #51
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭nerd69


    im a munster fan and i think heaslip is a fantastic player bamboozle is absolutely right when he says his role has changed hes not making runs because sob and ferris are he is a very good player with a good head on his shoulders pom is going to get his chance but for now i think he is a superb 60th min sub or backup in case of injury


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    #52
    prospect
    Registered Users Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭prospect


    I thought this thread was about Shane Horgan's efforts as a pundit?


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    #53
    Lapsed Catholic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Lapsed Catholic


    Nerd69, delighted for you.

    Prospect, the thread was about Shaggys accent and hair colour, do not confuse it with a rugby thread again, ok :mad:


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    #54
    Buceph
    Registered Users Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭Buceph


    To be honest, there should be no pundit who has a stake in the game or players on the panel. Quinny shouldn't have been there for the past few years, Shaggy shouldn't be there now, and Frankie Sheahan should absolutely never be there. Unlike Quinny and Horgan, Sheahan has a financial stake in talking up certain players on the pitch, because he represents them. RTE letting Sheahan commentate, analyse and even award Man of the Match to people he gets money from is pure hucksterism from RTE. So, no to Shaggy, no to Sheahan, and Quinny should only be there as of now because he's retired.


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    #55
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭nerd69


    Lapsed Catholic wrote: »
    Nerd69, delighted for you.

    Prospect, the thread was about Shaggys accent and hair colour, do not confuse it with a rugby thread again, ok :mad:

    ok my bad but i didn't start going off topic just followed others continued on from others posts. with regards to sh as a pundit i think hes doing a very good job frankly i would prefer himself frankie and connor o shea as a panel hook has bullied the other pundits for to long nice to see some1 stand up to him


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    #56
    flyswatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,625 ✭✭✭flyswatter


    Buceph wrote: »
    To be honest, there should be no pundit who has a stake in the game or players on the panel. Quinny shouldn't have been there for the past few years, Shaggy shouldn't be there now, and Frankie Sheahan should absolutely never be there. Unlike Quinny and Horgan, Sheahan has a financial stake in talking up certain players on the pitch, because he represents them. RTE letting Sheahan commentate, analyse and even award Man of the Match to people he gets money from is pure hucksterism from RTE. So, no to Shaggy, no to Sheahan, and Quinny should only be there as of now because he's retired.
    What's this about the financial stake Sheahan has?


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    #57
    Buceph
    Registered Users Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭Buceph


    flyswatter wrote: »
    What's this about the financial stake Sheahan has?

    He's halfway between a media rep and agent for a couple of players. I've heard a few names mentioned as on the books, but the only one that had any confirmation in the public was Wallace who Sheahan claimed to represent around the time of his contract negotiations. Wallacemuddied the waters by saying Sheahan wasn't his agent. He then never clarified what Sheahan was to him, but it was definitely said in papers that Sheahan represents him in some capacity, most likely at media stuff, like book deals and the like.


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    #58
    WeeBushy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭WeeBushy


    What Sheahan does, and the players he represents:

    http://frontrow.ie/page.asp?id=40

    It doesn't say which services individual players avail of, however.


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    #59
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,632 ✭✭✭nerd69


    in that case connor o shea has a vested interest in harliquens and george hook has a vested interest in connaught and they both have a vested interest in ireland anyone who is that into there rugby is going to have a vested interest in some club or player i havent seen any of the 3 be biased towards any players or clubs


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    #60
    WeeBushy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭WeeBushy


    nerd69 wrote: »
    in that case connor o shea has a vested interest in harliquens and george hook has a vested interest in connaught and they both have a vested interest in ireland anyone who is that into there rugby is going to have a vested interest in some club or player i havent seen any of the 3 be biased towards any players or clubs

    Well not really, there are no Irish players at Quins so O'Shea's vested interest in his own players doesn't come into it. Hook doesn't stand to make money out of Connacht players doing well so by definition doesn't have a vested interest.


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    #61
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 16,981 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Plus, nobody listens to Sheanan, so I doubt he shapes that much public opinion!


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