Status of the Cork Commuter Rail

JeffK88 · 19-03-2015 10:32pm #1

A few years back there was plans for various new stations along the Cork to Mallow line. Last I heard they were to open this year at the earliest. Any news on this project or has it been abandoned ?

end of the road · 19-03-2015 11:11pm

think they have been put on hold? couldn't say for definite though.

topnotch · 20-03-2015 12:42am

There is talk of a new station at Water-rock near Midleton as part of a new development.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/plans-for-5000-home-development-along-midleton-rail-route-unveiled-317703.html

JeffK88 · 20-03-2015 1:54am

Thats some kind of progress might get the ball rolling anyway. Look at Cork planning for the future and including rail as the main method of travel. Puts Dublin to shame really

L1011 · 20-03-2015 8:50am

The extra stations out to Mallow were put on hold with no signal of resuming.

Subpopulus · 21-03-2015 2:17pm

There are plans for three extra stations between Cork and Mallow.

Blarney
Monard
Kilbarry

All three of these are dependent on more development happening to the north of Cork city. The station at Blarney is dependent on a large tract of new land called Stoneview being zoned/developed. Monard station will be where the old Rathpeacon sidings were, and will serve the new town that is planned to be developed there. Monard was turned down by An Bord Pleanala in 2012 so that's all up in the air. Kilbarry is there to serve the industrial estate, and to some extent, Blackpool, but that would depend on the other two stations being built i'd imagine.

There'd also have to be regionalisation in Kent Station to allow through-running of trains from Midleton/Cobh, and perhaps some other rejigging required.

Probably a decade at least before trains will be seen running. Like I say, a lot of this is dependent on development happening.

Banjoxed · 23-03-2015 8:03pm

Subpopulus wrote: »

There are plans for three extra stations between Cork and Mallow.

Blarney
Monard
Kilbarry

All three of these are dependent on more development happening to the north of Cork city. The station at Blarney is dependent on a large tract of new land called Stoneview being zoned/developed. Monard station will be where the old Rathpeacon sidings were, and will serve the new town that is planned to be developed there. Monard was turned down by An Bord Pleanala in 2012 so that's all up in the air. Kilbarry is there to serve the industrial estate, and to some extent, Blackpool, but that would depend on the other two stations being built i'd imagine.

There'd also have to be regionalisation in Kent Station to allow through-running of trains from Midleton/Cobh, and perhaps some other rejigging required.

Probably a decade at least before trains will be seen running. Like I say, a lot of this is dependent on development happening.

Shame it has to be reactive to development, rather than the State making a modest investment to encourage development.

Subpopulus · 23-03-2015 8:42pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

Shame it has to be reactive to development, rather than the State making a modest investment to encourage development.

Yeah, bit of a chicken and egg situation, but as it stands, there's very little population along that section of rail line. You might be able to build a station at Blarney in anticipation of future development, but it would be hard to justify the expense of the station and the associated infrastructural improvements just to run a train out there. If you did end up building stations before development occurred then you could end up with a situation like that in Dublin where there's a station lying empty in Clonburris because the development never arrived, and probably won't for another 3/4/5 years yet.

As topnotch pointed out, theres plans for a new station west of Midleton at Waterock, to serve 5000 new houses. If that ends up happening relatively soon then it might push back the northern commuter line by another 5-10 years, both by taking up IE funding, and providing enough spare capacity in the housing market so that development doesn't have to happen north of Cork city.

And another thing - the Cork Northern Ring Road (or lack of it) might have a big say on whether or not any development can happen north of Cork City. So you might need a NRR in place (or guaranteed to be on the way) before the development can happen, and I'd imagine IE will only invest in the stations when there's shown to be a definite market for the services they'll provide.

So yes, you can say the government should be proactive in investing in infrastructure, but there's a heap of other things which have to be in place before it makes economic sense to make the investment. Otherwise you'll just end up with a white elephant commuter rail line that no-one uses.

Banjoxed · 23-03-2015 8:59pm

Subpopulus wrote: »

Yeah, bit of a chicken and egg situation, but as it stands, there's very little population along that section of rail line. You might be able to build a station at Blarney in anticipation of future development, but it would be hard to justify the expense of the station and the associated infrastructural improvements just to run a train out there. If you did end up building stations before development occurred then you could end up with a situation like that in Dublin where there's a station lying empty in Clonburris because the development never arrived, and probably won't for another 3/4/5 years yet.

As topnotch pointed out, theres plans for a new station west of Midleton at Waterock, to serve 5000 new houses. If that ends up happening relatively soon then it might push back the northern commuter line by another 5-10 years, both by taking up IE funding, and providing enough spare capacity in the housing market so that development doesn't have to happen north of Cork city.

And another thing - the Cork Northern Ring Road (or lack of it) might have a big say on whether or not any development can happen north of Cork City. So you might need a NRR in place (or guaranteed to be on the way) before the development can happen, and I'd imagine IE will only invest in the stations when there's shown to be a definite market for the services they'll provide.

So yes, you can say the government should be proactive in investing in infrastructure, but there's a heap of other things which have to be in place before it makes economic sense to make the investment. Otherwise you'll just end up with a white elephant commuter rail line that no-one uses.

Interesting points, and valid. I do however wonder would Irish decision makers have vetoed London's suburban rail and tube expansion in the Thirties on the basis that no pre existing suburbs were in place before hand.

In addition, if I had an old Irish Pound for every time someone trotted out "White Elephant" during the design and construction phase of DART I'd have had a few hundred pounds for it. A serviced station at Blarney wouldn't be a waste of money IMO but our decision making process favours the car first while looking agog at the resultant congestion and wringing hands accordingly.

Subpopulus · 23-03-2015 9:40pm

I don't think IE are against building stations in advance of housing developments in principle, but rather it's down to the speculative nature of development to the north of the city. Right now, I don't think that there's any indication when, or even if, any further housing developments are going to happen. In two years time there'll be a better view of the situation and IE might decide to move ahead with the plans to develop stations. I'm not sure that Irish planners are quite as car-centric as you imagine, after all they have built stations on commuter lines in Kildare well in advance of any housing developments (Hansfield, Fonthill, Kishoge). Ditto the Cherrwood Luas. But a lot of that was funded using boom time money, and that having vanished, I can understand if IE are a bit cagey in investing in stations that might not pay a dividend for quite a while.

Blarney probably has the best chance of going ahead in the next couple of years, given it can be served by the Cork-Mallow service, but that wouldn't give a great quality of service since Mallow is also served by most intercity trains and Blarney would not, and the trains then wouldn't be regular enough to properly serve the station. So you'd probably want either Monard or Kilbarry also happening to get more people using the trains and make the investment worthwhile.

dowlingm · 23-03-2015 9:56pm

Blarney does have a tourism angle though aside from the raw commuter traffic - the rail line is a bit of a hike from the castle/woollen mills though. Am concerned that a stopping pattern between Cork and Mallow will have implications for squeezing down Cork-Dublin timings.

cgcsb · 27-03-2015 10:13am

It'd be fantastic to see an electrified Cork Commuter rail from Mallow to Midletone/Cobh with stops at blarney/monard/dunkettle etc.

Electrification would allow for stations being closer together and would improve the service overall.

Captain Chaos · 28-03-2015 11:54am

cgcsb wrote: »

Electrification would allow for stations being closer together and would improve the service overall.

How exactly. In general EMU acceleration and braking performance is better than DMUs but the 29k was the first of a new generation of DMUs that are actually better than a DART at acceleration from a standing start and have shorter braking distances.

The 2600s, being older are not as good but there is no need for expensive OHLE to be installed and new EMUs to be bought and a depot to service them to be built in Cork.

end of the road · 28-03-2015 10:40pm

Captain Chaos wrote: »

How exactly. In general EMU acceleration and braking performance is better than DMUs but the 29k was the first of a new generation of DMUs that are actually better than a DART at acceleration from a standing start and have shorter braking distances.

The 2600s, being older are not as good but there is no need for expensive OHLE to be installed and new EMUs to be bought and a depot to service them to be built in Cork.

i agree actually. once the 2600s and 2800s retire, certainly it should be looked at. once funding allows, they need to get on with electrifying the main line though. that will do a lot in terms of freeing up stock.

davidlacey · 29-03-2015 2:42pm

I honestly don't think electrification can be looked at until further expansion goes ahead in Dublin, the maynooth line I am sure carries much more than both Cobb and midelton lines combined at any time unless there is a special cruise in cobh

Victor · 29-03-2015 3:11pm

The expectation is that Cork-Dublin would be electrified at 25kV, so I would think any electrification in Cork would tie-in with that.

Although it does raise the question as to what Heuston-Hazelhatch would be electrified as.

end of the road · 29-03-2015 9:59pm

davidlacey wrote: »

I honestly don't think electrification can be looked at until further expansion goes ahead in Dublin, the maynooth line I am sure carries much more than both Cobb and midelton lines combined at any time unless there is a special cruise in cobh

unfortunately electrification in ireland will need to be based on where the diesel stock can be sent to. for example as the 26/800s are based in cork and limerick and will probably be in service as long as the 29s there will be nowhere for the 29s to go if we electrified maynooth at the moment. where as electrifying the cork line will mean that stock can be sent to belfast for an hourly service eventually and other regional diesel services.

end of the road · 29-03-2015 10:10pm

Victor wrote: »

The expectation is that Cork-Dublin would be electrified at 25kV, so I would think any electrification in Cork would tie-in with that.

yes thats it in a nutshell. as mentioned up thread if we electrified cork suburban only that would require either an upgrade of the facilities there now or a brand new one (all be it that will have to happen either way should the cork main line be electrified) so its probably not a problem. but as cork suburban has perfectly good diesel stock at the moment, there is no point in doing it right now as dublin has enough suburban stock of its own which is in connolly anyway, and IE won't run suburban stock out of heuston.

Victor wrote: »

Although it does raise the question as to what Heuston-Hazelhatch would be electrified as.

that is a good question actually, as one would think that there are a number of potential issues. however there aren't really. if modern EMUS can be made to work off both 3rd rail and OHLE, then there is surely no reason we can't get EMUS that work off 25kv and whatever the dart system is . we'd have to go down that road whatever we electrified at, as the kildare suburban would be worked through dart underground, unless we hold off until the dart carriges and OHLE needs replacing and do the lot at 25kv. of course this is taking it that this will all happen, which i do hope it will

L1011 · 31-03-2015 9:23am

Dual mode units exist due to the Dutch using 1500v DC and neighbours using 25kv AC but it's not exactly a cheap modification

Status of the Cork Commuter Rail

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