Apple Data Centre Athenry = Middle of Nowhere.

4ensic15 · 09-11-2015 7:00pm

plodder wrote: »

Ok, but you referred to Moore's law. Moore's law is causing an increase in demand for power, which gets converted to heat that needs to be dissipated.

So, I'm not sure what other technical developments there might be that will make this data centre obsolete.

The requirement for stable temperatures. I remember disk drives having to be in air conditioned rooms.

gctest50 · 09-11-2015 7:16pm

Youngblood.III wrote: »

Perfectly good IDA green site in Oranmore, on the N18 just up from Maldron Hotel. Roadway and landscaped entrance there already. Rail and motorway with 1 mile.

Rail ? its a data centre not train station ?

landscaped entrance ? ??? what benefit is that to a rack of servers ?

anything else ? deer grazing peacefully on the fens maybe ?

does that help the flooding ?

http://connachttribune.ie/tag/oranmore-floods/

09-11-2015 7:29pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Rail ? its a data centre not train station ?

landscaped entrance ? ??? what benefit is that to a rack of servers ?

anything else ? deer grazing peacefully on the fens maybe ?

does that help the flooding ?

http://connachttribune.ie/tag/oranmore-floods/

Railway lines provide a good route for fibres to run.

gctest50 · 09-11-2015 7:41pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Railway lines provide a good route for fibres to run.

bit more prone to damage by theives mistaking them for copper

the stuff wrapped around high-tension power lines is a bit safer from that

Youngblood.III · 09-11-2015 8:51pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Rail ? its a data centre not train station ?

landscaped entrance ? ??? what benefit is that to a rack of servers ?

anything else ? deer grazing peacefully on the fens maybe ?

does that help the flooding ?

http://connachttribune.ie/tag/oranmore-floods/

You're not well informed are you? Is the Maldron or Cisco under water from floods...is all of Oranmore underwater from floods....No!

Btw...that is a not a picture of Oranmore.

A train station for workers (public transport).

A prepared IDA site exists in Oranmore already, why go to a site with none of these.

Victor · 10-11-2015 12:11am

Youngblood.III wrote: »

A train station for workers (public transport).

A prepared IDA site exists in Oranmore already, why go to a site with none of these.

Because multiple high capacity energy and internet connections (the equivalent of thousands or hundreds of thousands of domestic connections) are what they need. There will only be a modest number of workers and few deliveries after construction.

gctest50 · 10-11-2015 12:42am

Youngblood.III wrote: »

You're not well informed are you? Is the Maldron or Cisco under water from floods...is all of Oranmore underwater from floods....No!

Btw...that is a not a picture of Oranmore.

I never said it was - it was a link to the Connaught Tribune, (and i'm sure they know which swamp is which)

In their news story, they explain about the Western CFRAM study :

http://www.westcframstudy.ie/map/galway-bay-south-east-%2829%29.aspx

http://www.westcframstudy.ie/media/5299/W29ORM_EXFCD_C2.pdf

http://www.westcframstudy.ie/media/5320/W29ORM_ZNMCD_C2.pdf

http://www.westcframstudy.ie/media/5293/W29ORM_DPFCD100_C2.pdf

http://www.westcframstudy.ie/media/5290/W29ORM_DPFCD010_C2.pdf

http://www.westcframstudy.ie/media/5287/W29ORM_DPFCD001_C2.pdf

Youngblood.III wrote: »

A train station for workers (public transport).

A prepared IDA site exists in Oranmore already, why go to a site with none of these.

GerardKeating · 10-11-2015 2:18am

Youngblood.III wrote: »

Perfectly good IDA green site in Oranmore, on the N18 just up from Maldron Hotel. Roadway and landscaped entrance there already. Rail and motorway with 1 mile.

As does the Atherny Site.

syklops · 10-11-2015 4:28am

The thread title is Athenry Data centre - middle of nowhere.

Currently the debate is, why wasn't an IDA site in Oranmore used instead. The site is apparently in the Derrydonnell area which is 5 kilometres from Oranmore town. Hardly middle of nowhere if another viable site is only 5km from it.

10-11-2015 2:50pm

Youngblood.III wrote: »

Perfectly good IDA green site in Oranmore, on the N18 just up from Maldron Hotel. Roadway and landscaped entrance there already. Rail and motorway with 1 mile.

Probably more suitable for manufacturing of some sort that will require lots of people and generate traffic.

No point using it inefficiently.

Greaney · 06-11-2016 8:30pm

Some light reading on the matter
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/data-centre-growth-comes-at-price-for-irish-infrastructure-1.2759291

http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/datacenters

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/cloud-centers-bring-high-tech-flash-but-not-many-jobs-to-beaten-down-towns/2011/11/08/gIQAccTQtN_print.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/technology/cloud-computing-brings-sprawling-centers-but-few-jobs-to-small-towns.html

http://www.bleedingheartland.com/2016/07/25/data-centers-do-not-make-iowa-a-high-tech-state/

afatbollix · 06-11-2016 10:22pm

And your opinion is?

We were all told it was a few 100 jobs at the start? It's not like they lied to us.

06-11-2016 10:26pm

afatbollix wrote: »

And your opinion is?

We were all told it was a few 100 jobs at the start? It's not like they lied to us.

Hard hat jobs, once construction is completed, they'll just be a small number of security & support staff.

JohnC. · 07-11-2016 9:35am

That was known. I'm sure it's even been mentioned back in this very thread in response to comments about infrastructure leading to the centre, ie. you don't need huge infrastructure to bring the few staff to work.

dubhthach · 07-11-2016 11:49am

Deleted User wrote: »

Railway lines provide a good route for fibres to run.

One of major fibre routes run along that railway, namely BT's one.

dubhthach · 07-11-2016 11:50am

gctest50 wrote: »

bit more prone to damage by theives mistaking them for copper

the stuff wrapped around high-tension power lines is a bit safer from that

BT haven't had any outage on their main fibre link along that railway in nearly 20 years of operations.

dubhthach · 07-11-2016 11:57am

Deleted User wrote: »

Hard hat jobs, once construction is completed, they'll just be a small number of security & support staff.

Depending on size of facility probably on order of 50 staff per data center. They are planning on building 8 on the site, so there would be synergy, I'd imagine could be anywhere from 200-400 full time staff when up and operational, spilt over three or so 8 hour shifts (well unless they do 2 x 12 hour shifts)

The more important thing of course is all the local firms which will be providing services during construction, build-out, cabling etc. This will lead to build up of local knowledge which makes area attractive to other DC providers to consider setting up in Connacht in general.

Greaney · 07-11-2016 1:06pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Depending on size of facility probably on order of 50 staff per data center. They are planning on building 8 on the site, so there would be synergy, I'd imagine could be anywhere from 200-400 full time staff when up and operational, spilt over three or so 8 hour shifts (well unless they do 2 x 12 hour shifts)

The more important thing of course is all the local firms which will be providing services during construction, build-out, cabling etc. This will lead to build up of local knowledge which makes area attractive to other DC providers to consider setting up in Connacht in general.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/technology/cloud-computing-brings-sprawling-centers-but-few-jobs-to-small-towns.html

dubhthach · 07-11-2016 1:16pm

Greaney wrote: »

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/technology/cloud-computing-brings-sprawling-centers-but-few-jobs-to-small-towns.html

Thanks I've only been working in and out of Data centers for the last 13 years

23-10-2018 9:59am

Supreme Court told planning law “radically misapplied” in Apple Athenry case

The law was “radically misapplied” by An Bord Pleanála when they gave the go ahead for Apple to build an €850 million date centre in Athenry the Supreme Court has been told.
While Apple has decided to give up its plans for a data centre in Athenry after the project spent years in legal limbo, the Supreme Court is still hearing two objectors’ case.

The central part of the objection has always been whether An Bord Pleanála was obliged to consider the environmental impact of eight data halls, Apple’s masterplan for the site, instead of just the one hall which was contained in the application

Full story here - https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/supreme-court-told-planning-law-radically-misapplied-in-apple-athenry-case/

CatInABox · 23-10-2018 10:03am

Deleted User wrote: »

Supreme Court told planning law “radically misapplied” in Apple Athenry case

The law was “radically misapplied” by An Bord Pleanála when they gave the go ahead for Apple to build an €850 million date centre in Athenry the Supreme Court has been told.
While Apple has decided to give up its plans for a data centre in Athenry after the project spent years in legal limbo, the Supreme Court is still hearing two objectors’ case.

The central part of the objection has always been whether An Bord Pleanála was obliged to consider the environmental impact of eight data halls, Apple’s masterplan for the site, instead of just the one hall which was contained in the application

Full story here - https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/supreme-court-told-planning-law-radically-misapplied-in-apple-athenry-case/

In other words, person fighting the approval tells court his opinion.

Greaney · 23-10-2018 10:59am

CatInABox wrote: »

In other words, person fighting the approval tells court his opinion.

Or the Opinion of the EU...

Data Centre Code of Conduct

Ireland's got Renewables Targets it signed up to meet

If we don't meet the target we set, we'll be fined

Our planning laws are lousy and we demand nothing from the Multinational to mitigate the power use, unlike Denmark

Our environmental record is appaling

If only we could do things the right way in Ireland instead of throwing things together like the mess we made with our schools

plodder · 23-10-2018 11:06am

Deleted User wrote: »

The central part of the objection has always been whether An Bord Pleanála was obliged to consider the environmental impact of eight data halls, Apple’s masterplan for the site, instead of just the one hall which was contained in the application

Full story here - https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/supreme-court-told-planning-law-radically-misapplied-in-apple-athenry-case/

The argument makes no sense to me. There is nothing wrong with developing a project in phases. There is no certainty that any more than one phase, or whatever is being applied for will get built. The bottom line is that if this became how the law is interpreted then future similar big applications will make no reference to masterplans or possible future phases so long as what they are applying for is really a standalone project that can exist on its own without future phases, which was clearly the case here.

CatInABox · 23-10-2018 11:22am

Greaney wrote: »

Or the Opinion of the EU...

Data Centre Code of Conduct

Ireland's got Renewables Targets it signed up to meet

If we don't meet the target we set, we'll be fined

Our planning laws are lousy and we demand nothing from the Multinational to mitigate the power use, unlike Denmark

Our environmental record is appaling

If only we could do things the right way in Ireland instead of throwing things together like the mess we made with our schools

Anything in any of those that states projects have to do an EIS on everything in the master plan rather than on just what was in the application? Because that's what this complaint is about.

Totally agree with you on needing to do more on the environment, but that's something for the government to do, not the courts.

Greaney · 23-10-2018 11:23am

plodder wrote: »

The argument makes no sense to me. There is nothing wrong with developing a project in phases. There is no certainty that any more than one phase, or whatever is being applied for will get built. The bottom line is that if this became how the law is interpreted then future similar big applications will make no reference to masterplans or possible future phases so long as what they are applying for is really a standalone project that can exist on its own without future phases, which was clearly the case here.

There's nothing wrong in developing the data centre in phases, but it's just that the environmental impact is doing the same thing, and that's a different matter. furthermore, the building of all eight data centres was the reason the site was deemed suitable, but not for just one stand alone data centre.

Finally, some of the folk who originally objected at the judicial review stage live in the area. The land is lowland Karst, prone to flooding, and indeed there's been more flooding at the golf club since they began hollowing out the centre of the forest a few years back (they didn't replant)

Greaney · 23-10-2018 11:27am

CatInABox wrote: »

Anything in any of those that states projects have to do an EIS on everything in the master plan rather than on just what was in the application? Because that's what this complaint is about.

Totally agree with you on needing to do more on the environment, but that's something for the government to do, not the courts.

Yes, and the EIS only covered one data centre and not the masterplan.

The case is being argued on a legal point regarding EU law where an EIS (Environmental Impact statement) is not enough anymore and one now needs and Environmental Impact Report. Gosh I'll have to rummage around to find the link on that.... bare with me

Right here it is EIA Directive

Essentially, this was to strengthen member states ability to implement mitigation to fulfill their obligations regarding climate change and bolster the prior directives. This is the case point that Fitzpatrick & Daly are making, cos you have to have a point of law to fight a case.

This is what an Board Pleanála themselves have to say on the matter. Alas, it seems, when it comes to the the government themselves, they're not willing to adhere to it so strictly. OH well...

dubhthach · 23-10-2018 11:39am

Hardly surprising that McDowell is the SC in the case he tends to go for high profile cases (though having Apple pull out of case must have been a nuisance). Either way I wouldn't want to be presented with his bill for whoever looses the case.

Of course I imagine Google will pay attention they bought the HavFrue cable (former AEC-2) lock, stock & barrell

Aqua-Comms.original.jpg

This will have a branching unit and a cable landing station in Mayo, so there were be two major transatlantic cables landing in Connacht, I imagine if the objectors loose the supreme court case that someone else will jump in on the site given proximity to major transatlantic cables either recently built or in process (HavFrue due to be commissioned in 2020)

Both of those cables hook into the Bord Gáis Telecoms's cable that was laid with the Corrib Gas project to bring them down into general Athenry area.Where there is multiple backhaul connections (M6 Fibre, ESB Telecoms, BT heck even Eir wholesale!)

dubhthach · 23-10-2018 12:43pm

Oh it would seem Facebook is also a partner on HavFrue, that's hardly surprising given their massive Clonee project:
https://subtelforum.com/havfrue-cable-system-announced-cif/

Looks like it will be landing in Clew Bay at Leckanvey see:

Here's another press release:
http://www.te.com/content/dam/te-com/documents/subcom/global/HAVFRUE_TE_SubCom_CIF_17JAN2018.pdf

The HAVFRUE cable system will be optimized for coherent
transmission and will offer a cross-sectional cable capacity of 108Tbps, scalable to higher
capacities utilizing future generation SLTE technology. The combination of these elements will
make the HAVFRUE system a powerful and flexible solution for current uses while also providing
an easy upgrade path to accommodate future advances in subsea connectivity technology

Mayo is pretty soon gonna have the largest amount of external connectivity in the whole country! Given that this cable would have provided a Brexit proof connection to Denmark it's hardly surprising that Apple might have been interested in a site in West of Ireland, given their DC facilities in Denmark.

plodder · 23-10-2018 1:49pm

Greaney wrote: »

There's nothing wrong in developing the data centre in phases, but it's just that the environmental impact is doing the same thing, and that's a different matter. furthermore, the building of all eight data centres was the reason the site was deemed suitable, but not for just one stand alone data centre.

I don't quite follow. Why shouldn't the environmental impact be considered at the same time as the application itself? I think also that once the site meets the relevant planning constraints, I don't think it matters whether it is or isn't suitable for further work.

CatInABox · 23-10-2018 2:56pm

Greaney wrote: »

Yes, and the EIS only covered one data centre and not the masterplan.

The case is being argued on a legal point regarding EU law where an EIS (Environmental Impact statement) is not enough anymore and one now needs and Environmental Impact Report. Gosh I'll have to rummage around to find the link on that.... bare with me

Right here it is EIA Directive

Essentially, this was to strengthen member states ability to implement mitigation to fulfill their obligations regarding climate change and bolster the prior directives. This is the case point that Fitzpatrick & Daly are making, cos you have to have a point of law to fight a case.

This is what an Board Pleanála themselves have to say on the matter. Alas, it seems, when it comes to the the government themselves, they're not willing to adhere to it so strictly. OH well...

I've read through both of those, and it's very open to interpretation. When it talks about "whole project", does it really refer to a high level masterplan, or is it merely talking about the whole project that is currently up for approval?

I see no reason that the EIA should apply to the masterplan when the masterplan isn't what is being built. When they apply for permission to build the next data centre, they have to submit a new updated EIA, which makes reference to any that has gone before.

In the court case in the high court, ABP addressed this, and said: "it would have been completely inappropriate for the Board to decide in 2015 what was going to happen in 2035."

Apple Data Centre Athenry = Middle of Nowhere.

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