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Halifax (Bank of Scotland Ireland)

  • 30-09-2008 10:18am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭


    My beloved mother has a large deposit in the above bank. I find it strange that they are not covered by the Government guarantee. Most banks are now global and have international shareholders.

    How can the Government pick six institutions saying that they are Irish, I can understand the situation with Rabo, in all their advertising they say Dutch Central Bank, different story with Halifax.

    "Bank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number 8545. Registered Office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephen's Green, Dublin 2"

    What is the criteria for picking the six financial institutions named. Sounds very anti European. I think the European Central Bank and Brussels should move to guarantee all deposits in all European banks.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 817 ✭✭✭Burial


    Those banks aren't Irish. They are regulated to run in the Irish state upto a standard. They are subsiteries of other banks in different countries. Like why isn't the proposed failed US bank proposal apply to Irish banks.

    Also, Bank of Scotland I'd imagine would be Scottish, which would be guaranteed by the Uk government.

    As for being anti-European, it really isn't. Why would we, the Irish, guarantee ALL of Europe's savings? Our economy would be ruined then. And Brussels can't guarantee savings without all the countries approval and some countries won't agree to that. Also, Burssels has been trying to do that but noone will agree. Much like the workings of the EU.


  • Registered Users Posts: 817 ✭✭✭Burial


    So anyway, your "beloved mother" should move banks if she doesn't trust her current one. Even though it's covered by the Uk's guarantee.


  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Tarakiwa


    Burial wrote: »
    As for being anti-European, it really isn't. Why would we, the Irish, guarantee ALL of Europe's savings? Our economy would be ruined then.

    +1 from me!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭Économiste Monétaire


    Burial wrote: »
    Like why isn't the proposed failed US bank proposal apply to Irish banks.
    Any Bank operating the U.S. with specified securities (the toxic debt from MBS) were open to the deal. There were estimates that British banks could receive between 80-100 billion pounds of the the deal. That was a sore point for Congressmen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭eamonnm79


    Tell your mother to put her money in the post office.
    The Government promise is only a promise untill it is written in to law and the law is Passed by the Oirachtas.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 817 ✭✭✭Burial


    UCD_Econ wrote: »
    Any Bank operating the U.S. with specified securities (the toxic debt from MBS) were open to the deal. There were estimates that British banks could receive between 80-100 billion pounds of the the deal. That was a sore point for Congressmen.

    I didn't know of this. I presume Irish banks could also receive of that aid, if they were invloved in the mortgage crises?

    And as eamonnm79 said, the post office guarantees money you deposit as it doesn't do any loans, it runs solely on deposits.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭Économiste Monétaire


    Burial wrote: »
    I didn't know of this. I presume Irish banks could also receive of that aid, if they were invloved in the mortgage crises?
    If they had 'distressed assets' in the nature required then I assume they could, but I'm not aware of an Irish bank that does have any. The Times article about the British banks and the bailout is here. Unfortunately it seems the Times online is down at the moment so I'll list what the Banks could have gotten:
    The breakdown of what these banks are holding is the following: HSBC, the flagship of the British Empire, holds 45 billion pounds; Barclays, 17.4 billion pounds; Royal Bank of Scotland, 16.2 billion pounds; HBOS, 13.3 billion pounds; Lloyds TSB, which now owns HBOS, 3.4 billion pounds.
    That's around £95 billion.

    Edit: The Times online is back up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    The Times article states that:

    "non-US financial institutions must have significant operations in America to qualify. "

    I would have thought that Halifax/Bank of Scotland would have significant operations in Ireland.

    Bank of Scotland Ireland Ltd. is a company legally incorporated in this state, I supposed if the parent company wished, they could put their subsidary into receivership and legally walk away.

    What about AIB and Bank of Maryland?, the US deal would have covered them


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    Problem with the beloved mother is that she lives in a nursing home, she has no utility bills and no acceptable photo ID, she cannot open another account anywhere in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 817 ✭✭✭Burial


    The Times article states that:

    "non-US financial institutions must have significant operations in America to qualify. "

    I would have thought that Halifax/Bank of Scotland would have significant operations in Ireland.

    Bank of Scotland Ireland Ltd. is a company legally incorporated in this state, I supposed if the parent company wished, they could put their subsidary into receivership and legally walk away.

    What about AIB and Bank of Maryland?, the US deal would have covered them

    Two different bills and I think you answered your own question. AFAIK, the US deal would've covered the from any USA bad mortgage debt.

    Once again though, different country, different bill...
    Problem with the beloved mother is that she lives in a nursing home, she has no utility bills and no acceptable photo ID, she cannot open another account anywhere in Ireland.

    AFAIK, you can't withdraw money without photo ID anyway... Also, I'd talk to the people in the nursing home and your mother about getting a photo ID for her.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    She could apply for a passport, still does not solve the problem. No utility bills. I have talked to a few banks and they say they have to abide by the money laundering laws.

    It does bring up the plight of elderly people in nursing homes who have sold their houses, the money laundering act has produced major problems for them.

    I wonder would the beloved mother go on "Joe Duffy" or would Age Action like to take up the case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭My name is Mud


    Your mothers' deposit is already covered by the state guarantee limit of €100k.

    IIRC, lets say any bank was to fail, the government will cover the deposit, up to a max of €100k.

    So if she has 100k with Halifax, and they go under, she gets 100k back from the government.

    If she has 200k with Halifax, and they go under, she only gets back 100k as max payout is 100k.

    If she has more than a €100k deposit in a single bank, its a pretty poor investment strategy really.

    Eggs & basket situation

    See here for the blurbage

    http://www.itsyourmoney.ie/index.jsp?1nID=93&2nID=96&pID=145&nID=385&aID=0#


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,123 ✭✭✭stepbar


    She could apply for a passport, still does not solve the problem. No utility bills. I have talked to a few banks and they say they have to abide by the money laundering laws.

    It does bring up the plight of elderly people in nursing homes who have sold their houses, the money laundering act has produced major problems for them.

    I wonder would the beloved mother go on "Joe Duffy" or would Age Action like to take up the case.

    A statement from BOS(I) would do or if she is in the Thoms Directory / Electoral register that would be ok as well. A letter sent in the post from the Government would also be fine. ID wise a passport is really the only option.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭bug


    Is Ulster Bank bank of Scotland too?


  • Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭My name is Mud


    Ulster Bank is owned by Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS), whereas Halifax is part of the Bank of Scotland (Ireland) Group (HBOS).

    Two different companies, but same principals apply.


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    Hindsight is a great thing, the amount is 1.8 million, she would have to open 18 accounts. What is the position with UK government guarantees, would they cover a subsidary in Ireland.

    I phoned two of the main Irish Banks this morning, they reiterated photo ID (passport or driving license) and 2 current utility bills (ESB, gas, waste collection) VHI or Quinn no use. They asked me did I know what a utility bill was. They said it was the law and they could do nothing about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    Foreign-owned banks operating in Ireland, including UK-owned Ulster Bank Group, Bank of Scotland (Ireland) and the Danish-owned National Irish Bank, have asked the Government to be covered by the guarantee, claiming the scheme will put them at a competitive disadvantage.

    Today's talks in Paris between the Taoiseach and French president Nicolas Sarkozy will be dominated by the global financial crisis, and, in particular, the Irish Government's bank guarantee. Last night, the president's spokesman said Mr Sarkozy "has followed and discussed" with Mr Cowen the Government's move.

    A similar guarantee will be offered by the French government, with measures announced at the end of the week, the spokesman said.

    The European Commission has said it will investigate whether the Government bank guarantee breaches EU law, but it has also signalled that it would continue to adopt a flexible approach to implementing EU state aid rules.


  • Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭My name is Mud


    Hindsight is a great thing, the amount is 1.8 million, she would have to open 18 accounts. What is the position with UK government guarantees, would they cover a subsidary in Ireland.

    Hindsight rocks! But eggs & basket rules apply to everything. I would never have all my savings in one institution, likewise, I dont do all my shopping in one shop.
    Foreign-owned banks operating in Ireland, including UK-owned Ulster Bank Group, Bank of Scotland (Ireland) and the Danish-owned National Irish Bank, have asked the Government to be covered by the guarantee, claiming the scheme will put them at a competitive disadvantage.

    All subsidaries of foreign-owned banks in Ireland are covered as follows in the link here:
    http://www.itsyourmoney.ie/index.jsp?1nID=93&2nID=100&nID=153&aID=620

    Its a wait-and-see situation about the foreign-owned banks being covered by the state. The EU will have to rule on it methinks


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    RTE have been suggesting that NIB will be included in the scheme. haven't heard about whether the others will, i would imagine the EU though will insist on their inclusion eventually.


  • Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭My name is Mud


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1001/1222724599362.html
    The European Commission has said it will investigate whether the Government bank guarantee breaches EU law, but it has also signalled that it would continue to adopt a flexible approach to implementing EU state aid rules.

    Wait and see. It should unfold within the week.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    Britain wants Ireland to look closely at its guarantee of all deposits in Irish banks to make sure it complies with European Union competition law, a spokesman for Prime Minister Gordon Brown said today.

    More generally, he added, European governments should make sure that whatever actions they took to tackle the global financial crisis complied with EU competition law.

    British banks compete with Irish banks both in Britain and in Ireland and have voiced fears they could lose out competitively to Irish banks that enjoy the full guarantee.

    The Irish pledge on Tuesday to underwrite the country's banking system triggered a flood of cash from British businesses to Irish banks, a senior Irish stockbroker said.

    "We just want the Irish government to look quite closely at the arrangements they are putting in place to make sure they comply with EU competition law," the British government spokesman said.

    He said Britain was in contact with Irish authorities at a high level over the issue.

    In Dublin, a Department of Finance spokesman said Ireland was in contact with its European partners over the government's move.

    "We have been liaising with our European partners since the decision was made," the spokesman said. "Brussels would have been notified just in advance of the decision being announced."

    Ireland guaranteed all bank deposits on Tuesday in a bid to improve the industry's access to international funds frozen by the global credit crunch.

    The pledge covers up to €400 billion ($575 billion) of liabilities - more than twice the country's annual gross domestic product - and includes retail, commercial and interbank deposits.

    But the spokesman said the issue was not just about Ireland.

    "A number of European governments are taking steps to deal with the current financial instability, and the key element is that ultimately the [European] Commission needs to approve those steps being taken across the EU," he said.

    European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso today said there needed to be stronger European financial supervision and greater consistency in national deposit-guarantee schemes to stabilise the financial system.

    Mr Barroso said the existing system of regulation, based largely on national governments and regulators, could cope with the current crisis, but that the EU needed to go further in co-ordinated action to restore full confidence.

    Mr Brown said yesterday the British government plans to raise the guarantee for bank savings to £50,000 pounds from £35,000 in a new banking law.

    But he appeared to rule out following the Irish example.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    Any chance we could keep the discussion of the guarantee to the one thread (i.e. the original one Mike opened)?

    oh and Brendan, do you mind posting sources next time you post an article?


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    Looks like the 400 billion that Rankin from Davy's computed could rise dramatically. British savers, pension funds and businesses are now switching their money into Irish Banks which have a 100% guarantee.

    Our Government and taxpayers could end up supporting most of the savings in Europe. I know that a decision had to be taken quickly, but it looks like the Government's knee jerk reaction was not well thought out.

    What happens if the EU rules that the decision was anti competition, there will be a run on the banks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    Sorry about that:

    Source was Reuters


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    Looks like the 400 billion that Rankin from Davy's computed could rise dramatically. British savers, pension funds and businesses are now switching their money into Irish Banks which have a 100% guarantee.

    yeah, but the extra cash in the vault decreases the chances of us having to pay out.
    Our Government and taxpayers could end up supporting most of the savings in Europe. I know that a decision had to be taken quickly, but it looks like the Government's knee jerk reaction was not well thought out.

    no, that's pretty much as they intended. the Irish system needed more cash to continue day to day activities, they've gotten it.
    What happens if the EU rules that the decision was anti competition, there will be a run on the banks.

    unlikely I would think. at the end of the day the regulation of the industry is set by the national central banks. it might have to be tweaked to be more encompassing of UK and foreign subsidiaries operating here, but from what i can see the EU's initial backlash is beginning to turn into the realisation that it is the EU system that is lacking. I expect to see other nations follow suit. I think Sarkozy has suggested France might be doing something similar at the end of the week.

    edit:
    Sorry about that:

    Source was Reuters

    no worries and no need to apolgize, it's not in the charter or anything. just a suggestion. i just like to know who is saying what.


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