Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

CI and IVCA

  • 13-02-2012 9:03pm
    #1
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭


    Just wanted to give the vets who held a CI full competition licence and raced IVCA races that you need to be a full member of the IVCA if you want to race with them.

    An agreement was in place for 7years but CI withdrew from it, the IVCA were still recognising the CI licences until their AGM last November where the motion requiring full membership was passed.

    So essentially if you do decide to take both licences you will be doubly insured!

    Its €125 for us and €160 for the ivca which includes entry into all their races.


«134

Comments

  • #2
    manwithaplan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭manwithaplan


    That's a pity. I took out a full CI licence for the first time this year but wouldn't have minded doing the odd vets' race. Looks like I'll be keeping holy the sabbath day.


  • #3
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Was mulling over doing the vets ones as well but thats made the descision for me !


  • #4
    C3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭C3PO


    I'd love to do a few Vets races as well but won't be giving up my CI licence and couldn't justify two! Do any other clubs run a Vets class in Open races?


  • #5
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭morana


    It would be nice to have some vets only races. there is provision for over 50 races but I guess most of the guys would prefer over 40.

    There would be nothing to stop people organising a vets only race ala club league but I would think if you advertised a vets only race you would get a fairly full field.


  • #6
    C3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭C3PO


    morana wrote: »
    It would be nice to have some vets only races. there is provision for over 50 races but I guess most of the guys would prefer over 40.

    As of last year, over 50s would suit me just fine! :)


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    killalanerr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭killalanerr


    I have been following this one and its very disappointing that the past arrangement could not have continued.
    But it was inevitable this was going to happen given that CI seem to view the vets as a income stream as far as CI is concerned their is no such thing as a vet and all riders are to be graded on ability and not age

    Which is fair enough but given the ICVA run a good show was it really necessary to bring the 2 main race promoters in Ireland to loggerhead in this fashion given the cost involved to the riders and that the cross over is quite small


  • #8
    C3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭C3PO


    This row appears to have got quite bitter, even within IVCA itself! I don't really understand why IVCA don't let CI licence holders enter their races and charge them a significant fee for the privilege but no doubt there are reasons!


  • #9
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,158 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    The vets are revolting!

    Unfortunately there seem to be a number of members who, for whatever reason, don't want anything to do with CI

    I've taken both licences for the first time this year, as I need a CI one to race outside Ireland

    One thing to bear in mind with the vets - once you pay your subscription (€165 iirc) you pay no race entry fees. That still gets you insurance that I presume still allows you to race in club leagues

    Last year they operated a Pay as You Go system for CI members - I think it worked out at about a tenner a race, so if you do enough racing at this level it can pay for itself (they put on about 40 races a season)

    There's a deadline of 1 March to get signed up for the first race towards the end of March


  • #10
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭morana


    killalanerr wrote: »
    I have been following this one and its very disappointing that the past arrangement could not have continued.
    But it was inevitable this was going to happen given that CI seem to view the vets as a income stream as far as CI is concerned their is no such thing as a vet and all riders are to be graded on ability and not age

    Which is fair enough but given the ICVA run a good show was it really necessary to bring the 2 main race promoters in Ireland to loggerhead in this fashion given the cost involved to the riders and that the cross over is quite small

    We see all of our riders as an income stream to be honest. If we didnt have money we wont have a show. Wylie, Peelo, Swinand would win any A race in the country full stop. Throw in Martin O'Louighlin, Engermann, etc etc etc and you had a situation in the vets and in the juniors where a small few were winning all of the prizes. Hence the ability grading.

    We acknowledge that finishing the agreement was not the best thing we have ever done but at that stage we felt there was scope for the IVCA to join CI with benefits for their membership and ours. We spent a long time trying to convince them to come under our umbrella. They decided that it wasnt for them and we respect that. We offered to reinstate the agreement because of the great work that they do for us in respect of supporting some of our riders, sponsoring Ras na mBan and Junior Tour. They passed a motion which meant you had to be full time members of IVCA at their agm but it would take an EGM to revoke that. That hasnt happened and we are where we are.

    We are in no way at loggerheads with the Vets and you are correct the crossover is low, I am sure that all both orgs want is people on their bikes. Its a pity for them also because a lot of their members would be extremely good in Euros and Worlds but they have to take out our licence to compete in these events.

    BTW these arent state secrets or anything like that all IVCA members got notice of the EGM and a copy of our proposal.


  • #11
    Pablo Rubio
    Registered Users Posts: 365 ✭✭Pablo Rubio


    This is an awful pity. Especially for Vets who live a good bit away from Dublin and can't make it to IVCA races every week.

    First year as a vet for me and signed up for IVCA membership in full. Hoping to do a good few CI races myself , will have to take out basic membership and 1 day licences to do this probably??......we'll see how things develop.


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    killalanerr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭killalanerr


    morana wrote: »
    It would be nice to have some vets only races. there is provision for over 50 races but I guess most of the guys would prefer over 40.

    There would be nothing to stop people organising a vets only race ala club league but I would think if you advertised a vets only race you would get a fairly full field.

    Do the IVCA not do all ready do this in a very professional way,,if only CI could see a way to allow IVCA members into CI events and vise versa sound simple !


  • #13
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭morana


    killalanerr wrote: »
    Do the IVCA not do all ready do this in a very professional way,,if only CI could see a way to allow IVCA members into CI events and vise versa sound simple !

    see my previous post they must have crossed in the ether!


  • #14
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭morana


    Beasty wrote: »

    One thing to bear in mind with the vets - once you pay your subscription (€165 iirc) you pay no race entry fees. That still gets you insurance that I presume still allows you to race in club leagues

    No you need a valid CI licence to do club races


  • #15
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,158 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    morana wrote: »
    No you need a valid CI licence to do club races
    So that's another change then - that could affect quite a few riders I would guess - a number of applications to the IVCA may well have been made on the basis that their insurance was adequate to allow racing in Club League events


  • #16
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭morana


    Beasty wrote: »
    So that's another change then - that could affect quite a few riders I would guess - a number of applications to the IVCA may well have been made on the basis that their insurance was adequate to allow racing in Club League events

    yeah unfortunately until mutual recognition is in place you need a CI licence to do CI events such as sportifs, club leagues, track leagues, open races, mtb races or act as an officer in your CI affilated club...but there maybe some scope for us to move on this we would have to see how the insurance would work out and I assume IVCA would have to approve their members taking part??

    I suppose thats an anonomly. you could be a member of Ravens and hold an IVCA membership only whereas you should really hold a non comp membership.

    I hope people dont see this as provocative. That is not my intention A rider posted on their forum about this situation and I didnt want to post there as a director of CI and thought it would be best to post it here.


  • #17
    Pablo Rubio
    Registered Users Posts: 365 ✭✭Pablo Rubio


    morana wrote: »
    I hope people dont see this as provocative. That is not my intention A rider posted on their forum about this situation and I didnt want to post there as a director of CI and thought it would be best to post it here.

    Fair play to you for highlighting this matter. It is only through earnest and intelligent discourse that such differences can be overcome and reconciliation be allowed to be achieved.


  • #18
    Kebel
    Registered Users Posts: 421 ✭✭Kebel


    Anto

    Not trying to put you on the spot but based on previous posts etc on the IVCA forum, (you will be aware of them) myself and other IVCA members were of the opinion that CI were again recognising IVCA licenses, as was the case in previous years. Indeed I have a seen an e-mail from Heather (issued less than 1 week ago) to an IVCA member confirming that CI would recognise IVCA licenses in their events (National Champs aside).

    Myself and some of my pals accordingly made plans and paid for our IVCA license believing that we could ride IVCA races, plus an occasional open race from time to time. I personally have also taken out a CI club license at a cost of €55 and now if I am hearing you correctly will now have to shell out a further 120 for a full license for the couple of open races in my diary. If this is the case I would in fact have been better off not bothering with the Club License at all and simply taking out the full CI license to begin with, albeit that then I will as you have suggested be "doubly insured". By the way in such a case the insurers will not pay out twice, so there is no benefit to holding two licenses. The reason behind this strategy was based purely on the fact that I (and others) quite simply do not have the means to pay for two licenses; things as you are aware, are difficult for many of us in Ireland, and it seems illogical therefore that despite the assurances given in recent weeks / days that the situation has changed for based on my reading of this thread what you are saying is that IVCA members are not welcome at CI events.


    Kebel


  • #19
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,158 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Having come into this debate (between CI and the IVCA) very late, and not understanding the full history, I may not be qualified to comment too much. I know some senior people in both organsations have continued to work very hard to find a workable solution, but perhaps it is time that this whole issue is brought to a head. Hopefully it will encourage some of those with more extreme views to realise that no-one wins when these organisations are in effect at loggerheads


  • #20
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Beasty wrote: »
    Having come into this debate (between CI and the IVCA) very late, and not understanding the full history, I may not be qualified to comment too much. I know some senior people in both organsations have continued to work very hard to find a workable solution, but perhaps it is time that this whole issue is brought to a head. Hopefully it will encourage some of those with more extreme views to realise that no-one wins when these organisations are in effect at loggerheads

    +1 Life is too short for this sort of nonsense.
    Time for all involved to act for the best interests of Cycling in Ireland.

    We do not need any more prolonged splits and disputes here.


  • #21
    ragazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭ragazzo


    Beasty wrote: »
    Having come into this debate (between CI and the IVCA) very late, and not understanding the full history, I may not be qualified to comment too much. I know some senior people in both organsations have continued to work very hard to find a workable solution, but perhaps it is time that this whole issue is brought to a head. Hopefully it will encourage some of those with more extreme views to realise that no-one wins when these organisations are in effect at loggerheads

    Here is some background:
    There was a mutual recognition of licences for many years. At the end of 2010 CI, for whatever reason, decided that they would no longer recognise IVCA racing licences for CI open races.
    The IVCA did not retaliate in any way whatsoever. They continued to accept CI licences for all their events, including Championship events.
    CI riders paid a €10 sign on fee for each race.

    During this time the IVCA also continued to financially support CI with sponsorship of the 'Junior Tour' and 'Rás na mBán'. They also financially supported a number of promising young cyclists whom CI refused to grant aid. Obviously the available grants were more beneficial to our ProTour riders rather than some talented developing riders.

    During the 2011 season the IVCA rolled out a new swipe card sign on system with the aim of streamlining the task and eliminating cash at sign on. This proved very successful. Following on from this, a motion at the 2011 IVCA AGM was passed that all riders participating in IVCA races would have to pay their memberships and race fees in advance of the season.
    This is a total of €165 and covers approximately 40 races.

    CI, some weeks after the IVCA AGM, decided that after one year they would start recognising IVCA licences again.

    I am not aware of any senior IVCA members who wished to refuse recognition of CI licences nor am I aware of any splits or divides.

    The CI Board made a remarkably shortsighted decision when they refused to recognise IVCA licences. This ruling only served to punish cyclists and certainly was not made for the good of Irish cycling.

    I am sure that the IVCA will continue to work in the interests of Irish Cycling and, as a veterans organisation, continue to back the development of young, talented Irish cyclists.


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    manwithaplan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭manwithaplan


    I realise this is probably Cycling Bureaucracy 101 (and that I may be throwing petrol onto the fire) but why is a separate Vets' organisation required?


  • #23
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭morana


    Kebel wrote: »
    Anto

    Not trying to put you on the spot but based on previous posts etc on the IVCA forum, (you will be aware of them) myself and other IVCA members were of the opinion that CI were again recognising IVCA licenses, as was the case in previous years. Indeed I have a seen an e-mail from Heather (issued less than 1 week ago) to an IVCA member confirming that CI would recognise IVCA licenses in their events (National Champs aside).

    Myself and some of my pals accordingly made plans and paid for our IVCA license believing that we could ride IVCA races, plus an occasional open race from time to time. I personally have also taken out a CI club license at a cost of €55 and now if I am hearing you correctly will now have to shell out a further 120 for a full license for the couple of open races in my diary. If this is the case I would in fact have been better off not bothering with the Club License at all and simply taking out the full CI license to begin with, albeit that then I will as you have suggested be "doubly insured". By the way in such a case the insurers will not pay out twice, so there is no benefit to holding two licenses. The reason behind this strategy was based purely on the fact that I (and others) quite simply do not have the means to pay for two licenses; things as you are aware, are difficult for many of us in Ireland, and it seems illogical therefore that despite the assurances given in recent weeks / days that the situation has changed for based on my reading of this thread what you are saying is that IVCA members are not welcome at CI events.


    Kebel


    I am not too sure but I would say that was a scanned letter from our Sec to yours which was circulated to IVCA members before the EGM that they were going to have, which was a proposal. I will be pushing for us to allow IVCA races in our events. Regarding the double insurance I was in truth being a bit sarcastic and highlighting the idiocy of having to have 2 insurances to ride your bike!!

    @raggazo I will answer you later.


  • #24
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭morana


    manwithaplan wrote: »
    I realise this is probably Cycling Bureaucracy 101 (and that I may be throwing petrol onto the fire) but why is a separate Vets' organisation required?

    becasue CI wasnt doing enough for vets in years gone by and they decided quite rightly to organise for their vet specific events. I dont think there was any poliitical issues but I maybe wrong..


  • #25
    manwithaplan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭manwithaplan


    But if you have a group of willing CI members (those who now form IVCA) who want to organise programmes of vets races, surely CI wouldn't be standing in their way? I understand the need to provide racing opportunities for vets but would that not be possible from within CI structures as long as you have people with the time and commitment to do the job?


  • #26
    wpd
    Registered Users Posts: 492 ✭✭wpd


    Firstly thanks Morana for updating situation. It was actually me that posted on IVCA forum and i appreciate your reply.

    Only last night i saw the recent email from CI saying they would accept ivca licences to open races bar champs however this position seems to have moved

    In this hard times its hard to expect people to buy two licences, which is what i had to do last year.

    With the season just around the corner I had hoped this could be sorted out for the benefit of both organisations. Surely its better to have as many people riding your races as possible.


  • #27
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭morana


    wpd wrote: »
    Firstly thanks Morana for updating situation. It was actually me that posted on IVCA forum and i appreciate your reply.

    Only last night i saw the recent email from CI saying they would accept ivca licences to open races bar champs however this position seems to have moved

    In this hard times its hard to expect people to buy two licences, which is what i had to do last year.

    With the season just around the corner I had hoped this could be sorted out for the benefit of both organisations. Surely its better to have as many people riding your races as possible.

    Ok I fess up I wasnt aware that an email like that has circulated. As I said it was my intention to push for recognition of IVCA licences in our races anyway but if thats the case thats magic. I will check it immediately.

    @Phil If a group of CI members would like to start promoting Vet only races I would be happy to help to move this along. I am sure you would accept IVCA licences :)


  • #28
    wpd
    Registered Users Posts: 492 ✭✭wpd


    Sorry Morana when i read your reply i release my mail was a bit pointed about the email from CI. I know another poster here made an earlier reference to a similar email. I dont want to get anyone in CI in trouble as I can understand that the email was probably written in good faith with the facts as outlined at the time. Now that IVCA havnt moved on this issue i can understand if CI have changed policy.

    It would be great if you could clarify CI position for us as it stands today?

    The way forward may be if CI took the lead and as an olive branch stay with offer to recognise IVCA licences?


  • #29
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭morana


    ragazzo wrote: »
    Here is some background:
    There was a mutual recognition of licences for many years. At the end of 2010 CI, for whatever reason, decided that they would no longer recognise IVCA racing licences for CI open races.
    The IVCA did not retaliate in any way whatsoever. They continued to accept CI licences for all their events, including Championship events.
    CI riders paid a €10 sign on fee for each race.

    During this time the IVCA also continued to financially support CI with sponsorship of the 'Junior Tour' and 'Rás na mBán'. They also financially supported a number of promising young cyclists whom CI refused to grant aid. Obviously the available grants were more beneficial to our ProTour riders rather than some talented developing riders.

    During the 2011 season the IVCA rolled out a new swipe card sign on system with the aim of streamlining the task and eliminating cash at sign on. This proved very successful. Following on from this, a motion at the 2011 IVCA AGM was passed that all riders participating in IVCA races would have to pay their memberships and race fees in advance of the season.
    This is a total of €165 and covers approximately 40 races.

    CI, some weeks after the IVCA AGM, decided that after one year they would start recognising IVCA licences again.

    I am not aware of any senior IVCA members who wished to refuse recognition of CI licences nor am I aware of any splits or divides.

    The CI Board made a remarkably shortsighted decision when they refused to recognise IVCA licences. This ruling only served to punish cyclists and certainly was not made for the good of Irish cycling.

    I am sure that the IVCA will continue to work in the interests of Irish Cycling and, as a veterans organisation, continue to back the development of young, talented Irish cyclists.


    Lets not get into a "we are better than you" game!! I wont play that but I feel as I always do, I have to respond to your post. I sure it was merely to help Beasty understand where we are but I find the use of words like retaliate and punish a bit strange.

    Please read this first if you havent already. We went thru a negotiation phase of 1.5yrs as we felt the majority of IVCA members would benefit if the IVCA came under our umbrella. As I said in the other post we respect your decision not to come.

    I think its important you understand how the grant system works in Ireland. Criteria are set by CI and agreed with the Irish Sports council. The council give the grants when riders achieve the criteria. Full Stop. CI doesn't have any involvement with it apart from processing the application and forwarding it on. there is one exception to this. Tandem pilots have to be paid from CI money when the tandem achieves carding. We cant get out of that one.

    If you think that we decided to ask for the agreement to be reinstated because of the motion at your agm I can assure that this was not the case. We took the decision at our November board meeting prior to your AGM and the letter went out on the 29th December.
    We do nothing for development except the Sprocket Rocket program which is an 8 week program for €10. the sponsorship doesnt cover it for us. We put thru 2000 young cyclists thru the program last year, We also put in place a Gearing up program which is being rolled out this year as a follow on from SR. We have signed agreements with British Cycling and Scottish cycling to use coaching and other material from them to develop riders. We have shifted more to Development by putting int place dev squads at every age group up to U23 this includes Talent 2020 female and male. Our clubs promote races for youth up and down the country on a weekly basis. We produced a booklet at our own expense for starting riders off . We assisted Mick Lawless in bringing to life his dream of a closed circuit road course in Corkagh park (which will be available to the IVCA to run their races on) we currently are in the process of finalising the velodrome project which will be a great starting place for young riders, we are continuing to run our dev program for paracyclists who hopefully will continue to bring medals to ireland.

    and as I always say by "we" I mean the great clubs and volunteers that we have up and down the country who put on these events and run these programs. It is not the board its the lucans, Swords, phoenix etc. etc. etc.


  • #30
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭morana


    wpd wrote: »
    Sorry Morana when i read your reply i release my mail was a bit pointed about the email from CI. I know another poster here made an earlier reference to a similar email. I dont want to get anyone in CI in trouble as I can understand that the email was probably written in good faith with the facts as outlined at the time. Now that IVCA havnt moved on this issue i can understand if CI have changed policy.

    It would be great if you could clarify CI position for us as it stands today?

    The way forward may be if CI took the lead and as an olive branch stay with offer to recognise IVCA licences?

    Its no problem WPD!


  • Advertisement
  • #31
    ragazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭ragazzo


    morana wrote: »
    Lets not get into a "we are better than you" game!! I wont play that but I feel as I always do, I have to respond to your post. I sure it was merely to help Beasty understand where we are but I find the use of words like retaliate and punish a bit strange.

    Please read this first if you havent already. We went thru a negotiation phase of 1.5yrs as we felt the majority of IVCA members would benefit if the IVCA came under our umbrella. As I said in the other post we respect your decision not to come.

    I think its important you understand how the grant system works in Ireland. Criteria are set by CI and agreed with the Irish Sports council. The council give the grants when riders achieve the criteria. Full Stop. CI doesn't have any involvement with it apart from processing the application and forwarding it on. there is one exception to this. Tandem pilots have to be paid from CI money when the tandem achieves carding. We cant get out of that one.

    If you think that we decided to ask for the agreement to be reinstated because of the motion at your agm I can assure that this was not the case. We took the decision at our November board meeting prior to your AGM and the letter went out on the 29th December.

    You quite rightly say we do nothing for Development of Cycling in Ireland. Well nothing except the Sprocket Rocket program which is an 8 week program for €10. the sponsorship doesnt cover it for us. We put thru 2000 young cyclists thru the program last year, We also put in place a Gearing up program which is being rolled out this year as a follow on from SR. We have signed agreements with British Cycling and Scottish cycling to use coaching and other material from them to develop riders. We have shifted more to Development by putting int place dev squads at every age group up to U23 this includes Talent 2020 female and male. Our clubs promote races for youth up and down the country on a weekly basis. We produced a booklet at our own expense for starting riders off . We assisted Mick Lawless in bringing to life his dream of a closed circuit road course in Corkagh park (which will be available to the IVCA to run their races on) we currently are in the process of finalising the velodrome project which will be a great starting place for young riders, we are continuing to run our dev program for paracyclists who hopefully will continue to bring medals to ireland.

    and as I always say by "we" I mean the great clubs and volunteers that we have up and down the country who put on these events and run these programs. It is not the board its the lucans, Swords, phoenix etc. etc. etc.


    You are correct in your first paragraph morana. The post was merely explaining some background to the situation. I am not sure what the 'we are better than you' comment is about. You are under no obligation to respond to my post. I do not represent the IVCA. I am just someone who loves cycling and cannot see the point of CI's actions in this case.

    I think you might have mis-quoted me re development. I never referred to CI doing nothing for development.

    When I speak about CI, I am referring to the Board and not the clubs who put in the hard work. We are all aware of the excellent work that unpaid volunteers/club members put in every weekend.
    Without their hours of sacrifice and their trojan efforts there would be no youth or junior racing in this country. Indeed, there would be no CI.

    I hope that this work continues and that we witness some growth in racing numbers (youth/junior) over the coming years.
    That is the future and maybe CI should spend more time supporting an excellent network of clubs rather than depriving a few vets of an odd open race.

    No need to respond to this post morana, I am not trying to antagonise you. It's just my point of view.


Advertisement