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Target Pistols return to Ireland

  • 30-07-2004 3:27pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭


    Okay, so we've been rather low-key about this till today, waiting for it all to finalise, but this morning at 1130, Frank Brophy, a target shooter from Wexford, picked up his licence for a Toz-35 olympic target shooting pistol.

    This is the first such licence granted in over 30 years in the Republic (though they've always been legal in the North) and it means that for the first time in 32 years we can train a team for the Olympics, hold all-ireland national championships in pistol shooting and so on.

    The Toz-35, for those who don't know, is a Russian-made single-shot .22 calibre pistol, specifically designed to compete in the Olympic 50m Free Pistol event. It's about 44cm long, 16cm tall and 12cm wide, and weighs about 1.2 kilos. It's been enormously successful since its release - you walk along the firing line at this year's Olympic Games in Athens and up to half of the firing line will be using Toz-35s of one flavour or another. At the recent Athens World Cup, 26 out of 62 competitors used the Toz for 50m Free Pistol, and the only reason that there wasn't more is that the Toz isn't manufactured any more and they're becoming difficult to get. Here's what they look like:

    TOZ35.JPG

    The licence was initially refused, as per usual, but Frank appealed the decision (which meant going straight to the High Court, as there's no other appeals process for licencing, since your local superintendent is the sole authority for licencing according to the Firearms Acts).

    The refusal was quashed, with the consent of both parties, and the Superintendent has now issued Frank his licence.

    Hopefully, air pistol can't be far behind, and this will mean a healthy and actively competing olympic pistol community by this time next year, and who knows? Maybe we'll see an Irish target shooter on the firing line for a pistol event in the Olympics in Bejing!

    More details are up on www.targetshootingireland.org for those interested...


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭fiacha


    that's good news. it will be interesting to see how the next few people get on with their applications.

    it always seemed strange that legitimate target shooters could not have a pistol, but just about anyone can get a letter off a firearms officer and buy a replica blank firing pistol. a mate of mine has bought a Beretta 92fs replica that fires 10mm blanks. still capable of doing someone a lot of damage at close range, and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between it and the real thing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 627 ✭✭✭mcguiver


    Great to hear this.... went out shooting last week and it was main topic of conversation.

    Anyone know of any range that is suitable for pistols ???


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Only up north mcguiver. On a related note, it now appears that the policy of not issuing licences based on calibre or type of firearm has been rescinded, which means that all the olympic stuff is back - air pistol, standard pistol, free pistol, everything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 627 ✭✭✭mcguiver


    Thats interesting....

    I think I'll wait a while and see how that goes, don't want to fall out with my local firearms officer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Well, he'll just evaluate the application as it stands. If you're going for one of the ISSF pistols, you shouldn't have much of a problem. Obviously if you're going for one of the higher-power sidearm thingys, it's a different barrel of monkeys alltogether.

    But, the rumours are saying that the amendments for the firearms acts that are in the pipeline are going to crack down again before christmas.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,969 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    fiacha wrote:
    that's good news. it will be interesting to see how the next few people get on with their applications.

    it always seemed strange that legitimate target shooters could not have a pistol, but just about anyone can get a letter off a firearms officer and buy a replica blank firing pistol. a mate of mine has bought a Beretta 92fs replica that fires 10mm blanks. still capable of doing someone a lot of damage at close range, and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between it and the real thing.

    Damage their hearing, maybe?

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    esel wrote:
    Damage their hearing, maybe?

    No, both will damage your hearing equally. And if you point either at someone, you're risking their lives (see Brandon Lee's tragic end for an example).


  • Registered Users Posts: 743 ✭✭✭Renegade_Archer


    Sparks wrote:
    Well, he'll just evaluate the application as it stands. If you're going for one of the ISSF pistols, you shouldn't have much of a problem. Obviously if you're going for one of the higher-power sidearm thingys, it's a different barrel of monkeys alltogether.

    But, the rumours are saying that the amendments for the firearms acts that are in the pipeline are going to crack down again before christmas.

    So does that mean all the shiny pistols we buy will get confiscated, or those who get a license before christmas can keep their guns?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 627 ✭✭✭mcguiver


    I've a feeling that instead of approaching the whole pistol ownership thing nice and quietly, i.e establishing ownership of target pistols, building up a good reputation etc. showing we can handle these firearms safely etc. people are gonna rush out to buy everything and anything... and create a lot of bad publicity..... We all know the press are gonna jump on this one as soon as someone gets a flashy gun.


  • Registered Users Posts: 743 ✭✭✭Renegade_Archer


    Bit of background: My name is Ewan, Ive taken up 10m olympic air pistol shooting over here in Germany, will be returning to Ireland in September. Would like to buy a sensible target air pistols like the IZH-46M, Im not after a Desert Eagle or something :P


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 627 ✭✭✭mcguiver


    Unfortunately from talking to a few shooters since the 1st pistol licence went through, most of them are looking at flashy sidearms, quick draw holsters, extended mags....... a bit o.t.t. ... much as I would love one myself, I've a feeling the extreemists will scare the authorities.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    That's the worrying bit mcguiver. I'm just waiting for the first IPSC club to be set up and the first "we have a right to own these" type of statement to be made :(
    I mean, right now it's time for quiet restraint, not yelling and shouting.

    Ewan, yes, it is a risk - pistols were effectively confiscated in 1972 without compensation. Of course, you could buy one and store it in Northern Ireland if it looks like the law is going to change on us badly, and either shoot it there or sell it off from there. Which is akward, but then again - if there are pistols being used sensibly here, it makes a better case for not banning them. And the DoJ have hinted in the past that they'll allow target pistols, it's the sidearms that they want gone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 627 ✭✭✭mcguiver


    Back before the ban, was there regulations regarding carrying/storing of pistols??


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Yes mcguiver, the same ones as exist now - the ban wasn't so much a ban as a policy not to licence certain types and calibres of firearms, as opposed to a change in legislation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    One thing shooters in Ireland need to be careful of is splitting the lobby, e.g. target shooters disowning hunting or olympic target shooters hanging "less pure" disciplines out to dry. This happened several times in the UK in the past, many target shooters supported the ban on "sidearms", hoping to save the ISSF disciplines, resulting in the whole lot getting banned.

    The bottom line is a gun is a gun. If you're not fit to have a 9mm, then you probably shouldnt have a .177 airgun either. We need to concentrate on keeping any type of firearm out of the hands of the nutjobs, not on securing our own interests at the expense of others.

    I'm in favour of some toughening up in our legislation by the way, there are plenty of idiots out there with shotguns held on certificates, a quick look at some country road signs attests to this. At the same time, many of the beaurocratic nightmares in the current system need improving, examples of this are; the need for a full rifle cert for each rifle, compared to second/subsequent certs for shotguns; the crazy system of renewing each cert annually on July 31st - the UK system of a 5 year cert woud be far more favourable. Firearms licencing could probably be conducted more efficiently if the administration parts of it were civilianised.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    One thing shooters in Ireland need to be careful of is splitting the lobby
    Hmmm. The other thing shooters need to be careful of is demanding everything at once. We'd have had ISSF target pistols over a decade ago if that hadn't been done at the time - so to be honest, I personally feel that target shooters have already been done over by other shooters. And if we have to reclaim things in a piecemeal fashion, it's remarkable how fast the loudest proponents of unity in the shooting community rapidly become the loudest proponents of promoting their own particular discipline ahead of the others.

    And while I've no problem seeing target pistols come back, I'm very wary of the larger service pistols, unless we see some serious funding of the Gardai for training in firearms matters. Not just from the simple safety point of view, but also from the image point of view. At the moment in this country, anyone who gets described as a shooter is thought of by the public in one of five ways : terrorist, armed criminal, army/ERU, hunter or nutter. I've been breaking my back trying to add a sixth category, that of olympic sportsman (yes, I know there are non-olympic disciplines, but the key here is simplicity of message and putting your best foot forward so I focus on the olympic side of things). But it's a long way from being done. If the IPSC were to start off in Ireland, you can bet we could kiss any positive image we've gained in the past few years goodbye - we'd have every pundit in the media scrambling to write the most vitriolic condemnation possible, and the TV coverage would scare the bejaysus out of half the country.

    I mean, it's bad enough the Barr Tribunal is recommending that doctors be obliged to break doctor-patient confidentiality if the patient owns a firearm and they think he/she may be suffering from depression or some other mental health problem, I don't particularly need to see the whole country screaming to ban guns because they got to watch some yahoo in military fatigues running around a combat pistol range and shooting at human silhouettes...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    Agree on the image thing, was at the range yesterday, saw a fella there in all over woodland camoflauge, shooting his 243, looked like a right eejit. That'll get you asked to leave most ranges in the Uk I've shot at.

    I don't shoot ISSF disciplines myself any more, but would like to shoot bullseye type pistol competitions, I wouldn't like to see a situation where only the ISSF singe shot pistol is permitted, as this has a very narrow appeal.

    It's worth noting that Northern Ireland has a wide range of pistol disciplines available, and an active shooting pistol community (stop sniggering at the back), with very little hassle - shooting 9mm, 357 etc on ranges up there is no big deal. Maybe this is one are the vaunted cross-border cooperation can be of benefit to us shooters, ironic considering the mess up there fecked us up in 1972.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭OFDM


    Sparks wrote:
    The refusal was quashed, with the consent of both parties, and the Superintendent has now issued Frank his licence.
    Does this set a legal precedent?


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    I don't shoot ISSF disciplines myself any more, but would like to shoot bullseye type pistol competitions, I wouldn't like to see a situation where only the ISSF singe shot pistol is permitted, as this has a very narrow appeal.
    There is more than one pistol event within ISSF, don't forget. The pistol at the start of this thread was for the 50m Free Pistol event (taking place in Athens tomorrow morning at 0800 our time for qualifications, 1100 for the final), but there are also disciplines like 25m standard pistol (shot with .22 pistols with a five-round magazine, taking place in Athens on Wednesday), 25m rapid-fire pistol (currently using a slightly different pistol with a five-round magazine, but switching to the standard 25m pistol from 2005, and taking place in Athens on Saturday), and of course the air pistol events (which took place over the last two days in Athens).

    But those are just the Olympic ISSF events - there are other, non-Olympic ISSF events that go to the World Championships level, including those which use centerfire pistols. So if ISSF pistols were allowed, you could compete in the bullseye-style competitions.
    It's worth noting that Northern Ireland has a wide range of pistol disciplines available, and an active shooting pistol community (stop sniggering at the back), with very little hassle - shooting 9mm, 357 etc on ranges up there is no big deal.
    Well. It does depend on the range. But they do have a very healthy ISSF pistol community up there. The 9mm and .357 shooters, I wouldn't have much contact with. But I do know that shooters from down south take part in Northern competitions all the time - I only got back from the Comber Open myself last monday, and I'm off to the East Antrim Shooting Festival this year, all going well, where I'm hoping to shoot air pistol and standard pistol if the logistics allows for it.

    Picture37_small.jpg

    (That's me shooting air pistol on the East Antrim range a few years ago).


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    OFDM wrote:
    Does this set a legal precedent?
    I'm not entirely certain, since the quashing was done with the consent of both parties. I'd like to say yes, since that would mean that the high court had ruled that the policy of restricting firearms licencing by calibre or type was unlawful - but I can't say that for definite. However, it doesn't matter much in the final analysis because the policy has been withdrawn by the Gardai (though not by the DoJ which means you can't get an import licence for a pistol at the moment since the DoJ grant those), and because it's likely to find it's way into the Firearms Acts if the rumours I've been hearing are correct.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 627 ✭✭✭mcguiver


    Yep a lot of ranges really have to work on the whole image.
    I'd wear camo when in the field, on the rare occasions I'd go hunting......

    I dont feel the need to wear them on the range.... wrong image for the public to see!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭Evil_Bilbo


    I used to hang around with Frank Brophy's son. I remember him campaigning to get pistol licences back in Ireland (many years ago). He must be delighted to finally get it.

    On another note, he took me clay pigeon shooting once (with some kind of pump action shotgun). It was my second time EVER shooting a gun. I didnt miss a single clay pigeon. He did. He never took me again!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    Didn't Nicholas Flood's court case to get his .308 licence a week or so earlier set the precedent, resulting in Frank Brophy's challenge going uncontested?

    The DoJ is allowing import of 308s and 303s etc at the moment, several have come in already and more are on the way over. I don't see how import licences for pistols could be treated differently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    No civ, Nick's case was in effect settled out of court and didn't set a precedent. Frank's case going uncontested was probably more to do with other factors than with Nick's case.

    On the import licences, several gun dealers have been telling me that import licences for pistols aren't being granted at the moment. The DoJ just works with a lot more red tape and so forth than most places. Plus, there'll be little hurry to start granting licences since there are amendments on the way for the firearms act.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    Given the usual delays inherent in the process, I'm not surprised no pistol import licences have been processed yet, it being only a couple of weeks since the change in Garda policy came around. Since you can apply for a firearms certificate when just in possession of a serial number for the firearm in question, you can get a licence before the gun enters the country. The DoJ should have very little room for maneuvre to refuse import for an already licenced firearm, particularly if a dealer rather than in individual was requesting the import.
    One problem I've always found in my dealings with the dept regarding firearms is their stubborness is only matched by their ignorance when it comes to the technical details, hence the long saga of refusing import of .222 rifles because they thought it was a military calibre. This was only reverse a few months ago, after many years of their being presented with evidence to the contrary.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    There are two policies though Civ, one for the Gardai who issue the licences and one for the DoJ who issue the importation orders. From what I've been hearing, it's not surprising that the two policies are out of sync.

    And I'm not sure it's ignorance so much as a lack of training - I've not yet met anyone in there who actively and malignly tried to avoid learning about firearms, but they get so much work dumped on them and the consequences of a mistake are so serious, that they always take the safe route for themselves. Which, while fustrating, is understandable.

    For example, the M-16 is chambered for .223 Remington, and is not something the DoJ want to see legally ownable in Ireland over the IRA/UDF problem. (Yes, I know they get their firearms elsewhere, but the DoJ still has to ban them from having the legal option). AR-15s, however, are superficially identical to M-16s and are available in .222 as well as .223 (and I think in .22 as well, though don't quote me on that). So the civil servant who has little to no training in firearms per se, just plays it as safe as he can and bars both .223 and .222 rounds. It's not necessarily malicious, even if it is highly fustrating and inconsistent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    The jist of the legislation covering occasional import licences is that if you can get a firearms certificate for it, you can import it.
    Section 17 (4) FIREARMS ACT, 1925

    4) An occasional licence to import into Saorstát Eireann a firearm, with or without ammunition therefor, may, on application in the prescribed manner be granted by the Minister to any person who holds or could be granted a firearm certificate for the firearm and ammunition (if any) in respect of which the occasional licence is sought or is a registered firearms dealer and every such occasional licence shall operate and be expressed to authorise the importation into Saorstát Eireann of the firearm and the quantity of ammunition (if any) specified in such licence through the port, by the, person, within the time (not being more than one month), and subject to the conditions named in such licence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    The problem is that it says "may be granted" - like most of the law in Ireland relating to firearms, it's all essentially on the sufferance of the person designated by the legislation as having the power to make the decision. It's not quite Kafka yet, mind - if there wasn't a review of the legislation in the works (for the past four years!) and there wasn't a series of amendments due to show up before christmas, I think that the DoJ and Gardai policies would get realigned much faster than is currently the case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    Talking to people in the trade, it seems the DoJ has been flooded with appplications for import licences for pistols, and have asked for a couple of weeks to clear the backlog.
    Dunno if this is an excuse for stalling...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Dunno either civ, but not only is it plausible, it was to be expected. The question now is what the 2004 Criminal Justice Bill adds to its miscellaneous section amending the Firearms Acts - because that could see the end or the rebirth of target pistol shooting in Ireland. It'd be highly ironic if less than four months after the end of the Olympic Games the Department of Justice were to ban five olympic events from Irish athletes again!

    That's why the sticky in the forum on this topic is there - the more POLITE and reasonable responses they get asking for target pistol shooting to stay, the less likely it is to be banned.

    (Unfortunately, the more responses they get from gun fetishists - and there are some out there - the more likely it is that they'll kneejerk and we'll see 1972 all over again, but in law this time rather than in licensing policy).


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