Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Being ignored by SPCA & Gardai - what to do now?

  • 26-11-2009 5:46pm
    #1
    puppy cat
    Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭


    OK, imagine you drove past a field and you saw a child sitting there on its own, no food, water or shelter, then that child gets out of the field, wanders into traffic, on a freezing cold, pitch black night, on a narrow little country road. What would you do? Contact the police? Child welfare? They would probably all come running wouldn't they? Of course they would. And the childs parents would be in huge trouble most likely (I would hope so anyway)

    Now, instead of a child, it's a horse, or a number of horses. So, you contact the local SPCA, you contact the police, you call into the houses around said field. What happens? Absolutely nothing! Time passes, a day or two, you notice the poor horses are still there, and still wandering into traffic, still no shelter or food or water.

    So what do you do then?

    Unfortunately this isn't a hypothetical situation by the way. I really am looking for answers, opinions, pointers.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Paul91
    Closed Accounts Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Paul91


    did you try the ISPCA - the local SPCA's aren't always associated to the ISPCA so may be best calling them direct -
    043 33 25035


  • #3
    puppy cat
    Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭puppy cat


    Paul91 wrote: »
    did you try the ISPCA - the local SPCA's aren't always associated to the ISPCA so may be best calling them direct

    I did actually, and was told to contact my local SPCA.

    I understand that people are under pressure these days but there's no excuse for neglecting a defenceless animal.

    It's going to take a fairly serious accident I think before the local police/SPCA do anything.

    I've even staked the place out to try to find out who is coming and going with different horses but to no avail.


  • #4
    Paul91
    Closed Accounts Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Paul91


    puppy cat wrote: »
    I did actually, and was told to contact my local SPCA.

    I understand that people are under pressure these days but there's no excuse for neglecting a defenceless animal.

    It's going to take a fairly serious accident I think before the local police/SPCA do anything.

    I've even staked the place out to try to find out who is coming and going with different horses but to no avail.

    try calling the ISPCA again and explain the local SPCA aren't doing anything


  • #5
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,821 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    If you really want to get something done & you are brave enough, this is what to do. Go to the Garda station & say that you wish to make a formal report of a crime. Stress the road safety aspect - this is 1000 times more important to the Guards than the cruelty but also the lack of food, water & shelter.

    State that you have reported this before & make it clear that you will report the matter to the Garda Ombudsman if it is not dealt with. Make a note of the name & number of the Guard that you speak to.

    Then, if nothing happens & the mood takes you, write up a simple press release about who refused to act & when. Send it, with photos of the horses, to the national dailies & radio stations. Make sure that you are 100% sure of your facts.


  • #6
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,240 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Does the council have a horse warden?


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    doctor evil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭doctor evil


    OP can I ask what experience you have with horses yourself?

    If this thread is moved to the Equine Forum you may get more answers.


  • #8
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,821 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Do you mean the equestrian sports forum ?.


  • #9
    Micamaca
    Registered Users Posts: 346 ✭✭Micamaca


    Welcome to Ireland where animals have no voice.

    However, it is not the fault of the SPCA that there are horses abandoned in a field. The council is supposed to deal with that, they are paid to. The SPCA's are charities, who are receiving less donations than before thanks to the economic situation. They probably don't have the resources. They are also having to handle more cruelty cases, more abandoned animals cases and so on.

    It really bugs me that everytime there is a animal cruelty case, the first thing people do is complain that the SPCA is not helping. Have you ever donated money or helped out? Maybe you have. But it not the SPCA that causes the problems. They try to help as best they can and they get little support/no from the government. They have to raise funds every painful year.

    You can also thank this wonderful society we live in. For a civilised country, we have a strange way of treating sentient beings. Strange meaning downright horrific in some cases.

    Oh and don't forget the people who insist on keeping Smithfield Horse Market open because in Ireland, tradition is tradition...even if it means animal cruelty. Such as horses being sold for the price of two boxes of cigarettes.

    Rant over. I know you are doing your best to help, so I apologise for ranting at you, when you are trying to help. I am not helping, just venting. But how some people in Ireland treat animals breaks my heart quite literally.

    Take photos and get onto the press or Joe Duffy or somebody that will force someone into taking action. The direction someone mentioned earlier, not to report it as cruelty but as concerned for safety of public, might do better. And I commend you for trying to help. I came across horses myself in Ballymun and doubt anything was ever done. At least you are following up. You could also try here...they have some links for equine.

    http://www.irishanimals.ie/equine/index.html Good luck.


  • #10
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,821 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Has a Council ever prosecuted someone for cruelty to a horse ?. The government make law & have appointed the Gardai to enforce the law. They have also appointed a Garda Ombudsman.

    Not providing an animal with food, water, shelter is a criminal offence as it allowing livestock to stray. It is no different to reporting a theft etc. The Guards have a duty to investigate & to consider prosecution if a crime has taken place.

    People are under the misapprehension that only the SPCA's or Councils can call the Guards when in fact anyone can report, what they believe to be a case of cruelty just as with any other crime.

    Also the Guards have a duty to investigate & if they do not do so they you have just cause to report the matter to the ombudsman. There would be less cruelty if people viewed it as a crime, like they do in the UK. There would also be better policing if people reported bad policing.


  • #11
    doctor evil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭doctor evil


    Discodog wrote: »
    Do you mean the equestrian sports forum ?.

    Yep

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=996


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    Paul91
    Closed Accounts Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Paul91


    although SPCA's are registered as charities they are run as businesses - they also have funding from the local council and in Cork are supposed to be an agent of the council

    I saw a program on late one evening on the BBC, "Countryfile" I think, they where talking about a horse sanctuary in the UK, Buckinghamshire, they said that the sanctuary where actually full to the brim with abandoned horses due to the economic climate, and where suggesting people had any unwanted horses PTS as this was less cruel than leaving them to starve - this was the UK as most of us are aware the animal welfare in Ireland is far below that of the UK


  • #13
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,821 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    I have heard that there is a serious horse problem in the UK. But there has to be a definition between someone who absolutely cannot continue to fund their horse & someone who chooses to spend the money elsewhere.

    If a person takes on the ownership of a horse they become responsible for it's care. The idea that you put down an animal or dump it on a rescue just because of a recession is wrong. The key is responsibility. Anyone taking on an animal or a mortgage needs to think of how they will cope if their income drops.

    The OP made a link between the care of an animal & the care of a child. Now that the state has been forced to recognise the abuse of children maybe we can start reacting to the abuse of animals. If you abandon your children as in an absentee parent you can become liable for maintenance. I believe that if you dump an animal at a rescue that you should also have a liability.

    By the way OP please update us on how you get on.


  • #14
    doctor evil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭doctor evil


    Discodog wrote: »
    But there has to be a definition between someone who absolutely cannot continue to fund their horse & someone who chooses to spend the money elsewhere.

    Sometimes the partnership does not work out and the horse may be sold and the money that would have gone on its upkeep will then be spent elsewhere. Horses are large expensive animals that can kill you.

    It is fairly irrelevant to compare a horse to a child. They may be both carbon based but they have different needs.

    To be sent to slaughter/pts/whatever you want to call it is much kinder and in some instances shows more loyalty than selling it or dumping it on a charity.


  • #15
    EGAR
    Registered Users Posts: 2,874 ✭✭✭EGAR


    Contact your DVO, mine has been more than helpful in the past when it comes to cruelty/neglect of horses and livestock.


  • #16
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,821 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    doctor evil wrote: »
    Sometimes the partnership does not work out and the horse may be sold and the money that would have gone on its upkeep will then be spent elsewhere. Horses are large expensive animals that can kill you.

    It is fairly irrelevant to compare a horse to a child. They may be both carbon based but they have different needs.

    To be sent to slaughter/pts/whatever you want to call it is much kinder and in some instances shows more loyalty than selling it or dumping it on a charity.

    "The partnership does not work out" What partnership ?. The horse didn't have any choice in the matter.

    If a horse tries to kill you, trust me he will have a very good reason. The news is full of people that have been killed by horses ! ???.

    Slaughter PTS shows a lot less loyalty than facing up to the obligation you made when you decided to get a horse.

    Good advice regarding the County/City Veterinary Officer. You will find their contact information in the listings for your County Council Departments.


  • #17
    doctor evil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭doctor evil


    Discodog wrote: »
    "The partnership does not work out" What partnership ?. The horse didn't have any choice in the matter.

    If a horse tries to kill you, trust me he will have a very good reason. The news is full of people that have been killed by horses ! ???.

    Slaughter PTS shows a lot less loyalty than facing up to the obligation you made when you decided to get a horse.

    I'll hazard a guess that your not horsey.

    By partnership I mean that the horse may be too much for the rider or the rider may have progressed from what the horse can give.

    It is dangerous to be overhorsed and not fair to expect an animal to engage in a level of work that it is just not capable of due to age/conformation/old injury/general ability. Horses are very expensive to keep as a lawnornament especially when you don't own your own land.

    Ever hear of rotational falls? Doesn't have to happen over massive x country jumps. The horse sure as hell doesn't intend to do.

    Horse riding/handling horses can be dangerous, to deny that is to be stupid.

    'Obligation you made when you get a horse' also includes an obligation to do what is best for the horse. Sometimes this means being sold or put to sleep. Or do you think elderly or unwell animals should rot and starve to death in fields as this is more 'natural' than being sent to slaughter.


  • #18
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,821 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    I was riding at the age of 3.

    With respect you are just justifying my point. Apart from a very few exceptions horses do not work, as in doing work to make their owner money. When an equestrian refers to work they mean the horse doing what they instruct it to do, for their pleasure or sport.

    It is totally wrong to move an animal on, just because it no longer meets your purpose, unless you can ensure it's total care. To the many dog lovers here it would be inconceivable that they would get rid of their dog because they fancy something different. It has always amazed me how people will express such great love for their horse & then happily ship it out because they want a better model. It is also ridiculous that dog owners have to have a license but horse owners do not ( if a dog license is €12 a horse license should be €100 ).

    What is best for the horse is to repay the "work" that the horse had done for you & care for it. If that means vet bills, feed etc then tough luck - one should of thought about that before getting a horse in the first place. If you don't own the land then you should be very sure of your financial future & make provision for the future needs of your horse.

    Today I can go out, buy a very cheap horse, & stick on a bit of roadside verge. No one will give a damn. The horse "industry" & "farmers" have massively overbred just to make money. The fields are full of horses that no one wants. The fact that prices have plummeted is no excuse for not looking after "stock". If that means selling the 08 Jeep or not going on a holiday - tough. These horses didn't choose to be one's "tool" or "stock". There are worrying signs that many will be shipped abroad as meat.

    How about a compulsory insurance where one pays say €250 per year to cover the future needs of the horse ?.


  • #19
    janvrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭janvrin


    Your council should respond to a issue like this. Had similar situation last year and asked to speak to female in agricultural dept and bingo she had it sorted for me! Horse was PTS but better than starving to death


  • #20
    convert
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 9,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭convert


    Discodog wrote: »
    It is totally wrong to move an animal on, just because it no longer meets your purpose, unless you can ensure it's total care. To the many dog lovers here it would be inconceivable that they would get rid of their dog because they fancy something different. It has always amazed me how people will express such great love for their horse & then happily ship it out because they want a better model.

    So if a child outgrows their pony, they should keep it rather than selling it on to another child/family who would provide it with an equally good home? I think it's cruel to see a pony being ridden by a child who has outgrown it and is far too heavy for it than seeing the pony sold on to a suitable home where it will be loved, appreciated and well cared for by another child/family.
    Discodog wrote: »
    What is best for the horse is to repay the "work" that the horse had done for you & care for it. If that means vet bills, feed etc [sic]then tough luck - one should of [sic] thought about that before getting a horse in the first place. If you don't own the land then you should be very sure of your financial future & make provision for the future needs of your horse.

    IMO, if a horse is severly ill/arthritic/badly injured and has a very poor quality of life then it's much kinder to put them out of their misery than leave them living in pain. Painkillers and medication can only do so much. When they stop working, then it's not fair to leave the horse in distress. However, I agree with you that people did not provide for the future of either themselves or their animals (not just horses) and seemed to live for day-to-day rather than the future.
    Discodog wrote: »
    Today I can go out, buy a very cheap horse, & stick on a bit of roadside verge. No one will give a damn. The horse "industry" & "farmers" have massively overbred just to make money.

    I think there has been some overbreeding of animals during the 'boom' period, but to intimate that it's just in the horse industry is a little rich: what about all the dogs that have ended up in pounds due to overbreeding? To that list can be added cats, rabbits, fowl, reptiles, rhodents, etc., etc., etc. The country is full of unwanted animals, that people thought they would like to keep, and once the crunch came, decided they didn't want them anymore. Just focusing on one type of breeder is irresponsible.

    Discodog wrote: »
    If that means selling the 08 Jeep - tough.

    You seem to have the impession that 'horsey people' all drive brand new big jeeps and lorries. You seem to be completely mislead in your opinion. All you have to do is go to some of the agricultural shows and see the large number of trailers which are towed by cars and small jeeps with registration plates from the late 1980s and the 1990s.

    And just incase you think I am condoning the abandonment of animals across the country, I would like to state that I am not. It is the worst thing that one can do and displays one of the worst elements of human nature. And unfortunately it's something that's becoming much more prevalent recently. At the moment I have a family of 5 cats outside who were abandoned and who I adopted. It was awful to see them in such a poor condition and equally as awful to see them abandoned just because the mother had kittens.


  • #21
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,821 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Selling a pony to on to a good home is fine, read the post, as you are ensuring it's ongoing care. If the child has outgrown the pony then stop the child riding it !.

    I totally agree that any animal that is beyond veterinary care may need to be put down but ideally that should be an animal health issue not a financial one. Dog vet bills can be big but horse vet bills can be horrific so don't get a horse unless you make provision to pay if the need arises.

    I didn't say "just the Horse industry" - again please read my post.

    I used the term 08 Jeep because there was one at the end of my lane towing a horse box. Of course I know that the equestrian community own a range of vehicles - I have lived in the Country all my life. The point was that the care of your horse should be a top priority. I wonder how many horse, dog etc owners who dump them actually cannot afford to keep them or simply choose not to do so.


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    convert
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 9,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭convert


    Discodog wrote: »
    The horse "industry" & "farmers" have massively overbred just to make money. The fields are full of horses that no one wants. The fact that prices have plummeted is no excuse for not looking after "stock".

    That to me read as if you were only talking about the horse industry.

    There's no excuse for abandoning or neglecting an animal, regardless of one's situation.

    OP, continue to contact your SPCA and, as was mentioned above, perhaps try to contact headoffice and let them know that you haven't received a satisfactory response to your report and want to know what else you should/can do. Contacting the council to see if there's a horse warden in your area may also be a route to follow, either.


  • #23
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,821 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    You, as an equestrian mod, know that sale prices hit record highs a few years ago. I am surrounded by Connemara breeders who were rubbing their hands with glee at Clifden, Ballinasloe & Maam. For some it is a hobby but for others it is money.

    They made money in the good times now it is about using some of that to care for horses that they can't sell. Most look after them fairly well. But there will be others who want rid & don't care how they achieve it.


  • #24
    doctor evil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭doctor evil


    Discodog wrote: »
    Apart from a very few exceptions horses do not work, as in doing work to make their owner money.

    I imagine there is a lot of animals in RS and treking/training centres/hirelings etc.
    It is totally wrong to move an animal on, just because it no longer meets your purpose, unless you can ensure it's total care.

    By selling it to a good home you may ensure this but all emotional connection must be severed and you have no idea if the new owner is going to keep it or make radical changes in management. Plenty of dodgy folk about. Some horses can have a screw loose and may look absolutely fine no the outside but may flip out at times with no self preservation, this can be caused by the likes of a brain tumour. There is also the liability of selling/loaning an animal that is known to be dangerous or exhibits dangerous behaviours (rearing/bolting, real ones not bunny hops and pissing off). Dumping an animal on a charity/sales/roadside when it is better to be put down is wrong.
    It is also ridiculous that dog owners have to have a license but horse owners do not ( if a dog license is €12 a horse license should be €100 ).

    Where have you been? All horses/ponies/donkeys now have to have a passport and any animal looking for a passport after Jul 2009 must have a microchip as well. Passports to specific societies can cost more. Failure to do so can result in a fine up to €5000. Why on earth should there be more tax? The food of food is beginning to come down but nothing relating to equines is coming down in price.
    What is best for the horse is to repay the "work" that the horse had done for you & care for it. If that means vet bills, feed etc then tough luck

    Plenty of owners do all they can for their animals but when times are hard what do you think should come first, roof over the head for the family/kids or to keep animal that is financially unwise to do so.
    These horses didn't choose to be one's "tool" or "stock". There are worrying signs that many will be shipped abroad as meat.

    As long as they are transported on the hook or properly in boxes/horse lorries (not transported when lame/sick) and killed at a professional place does it matter? Or do you think horses are cuter/fluffier than the likes of pigs who are more intelligent.


  • #25
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,821 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    How many of the roadside horses have passports ! ?. Like everything else it is pointless unless enforced. You have yet again reinforced my point by confirming that you have no real idea if the new owner will care for the horse properly.

    I did not say impose a tax. I said that there should be a license & all of the funds used for horse welfare. That way there would be a state funded system that people could apply to for help. Every horse would be chipped & inspected once a year (one's own vet could do this). I would happily pay €100 each for my two dogs if the same rules applied. Then the change of ownership would be tracked. It would then be for a vet to decide if an animal needed putting down & no one else. €250 per year would be a small part of the total cost of properly caring for a horse. It would be easy to collect a large amount quickly from the passport details so we could soon start rescuing the neglected horses & the ones from those who abandon them rather than paying the license fee.

    Some owners do all they can & clearly many don't otherwise we would not have so many cruelty & neglect cases.

    As you well know horses sold for meat are often exported live. The conditions here are monitored but when they arrive on the continent it is a different picture.

    Whether it is a horse, pig or cow live exports should be banned.


  • #26
    doctor evil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭doctor evil


    Discodog wrote: »
    yet again reinforced my point by confirming that you have no real idea if the new owner will care for the horse properly.

    So do you think a better system is to leave them to rot in a field or to come up with a ludicrous overly elaborate tax system. Licensing is another form of tax.
    state funded system that people could apply to for help.

    Very rich and out of touch with reality to say that in this climate. I really hope you never go beyond the theoretical.

    I would happily pay €100 each for my two dogs

    Would rescues have to pay this tax for every single dog they have (let alone any other animal).
    Then the change of ownership would be tracked.

    Past ownerships can already be traced using the passport system.

    http://www.horsepassportagency.ie/
    It would then be for a vet to decide if an animal needed putting down & no one else.

    So you think no one else is qualified to make this decision? Would this be any vet or equine vets (one speciality among many). Do you know vets don't appear out of thin air at the drop of a hat. So if a horse breaks its leg in a field you think only a vet should put it down? How much longer would the horse have to suffer while you wait for the vet. Much quicker to get someone with a gun (farmer/knacker man/hunts person).
    €250 per year would be a small part of the total cost of properly caring for a horse. It would be easy to collect a large amount quickly from the passport details

    I can imagine so many people telling you where to go with that. €250 for each equine/donkey/pony on top of €100 for each dog let alone any other tax on animal.
    As you well know horses sold for meat are often exported live. The conditions here are monitored but when they arrive on the continent it is a different picture.

    Just to play devils advocate, refrigerated trucks are not green at all. Bring back small local abattoirs.


  • #27
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,821 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    The "idea" is far from theoretical. Some of the proposals are in the submissions made as part of the Animal Welfare Bill - why don't you read them.

    A €100 dog license would have built in discounts for neutering, chipping etc. So a chipped, vacc'd, neutered dog would be more like €40 per year. Rescues & anyone taking a rescue dog would be exempt.

    A horse license is not elaborate but really simple to impose as the details are already on file. I would of thought that you would welcome any system that provides for abandoned horses - or don't you care about them.

    Rescuing & rehabilitating horses is extremely expensive. Your answer is to kill them. There is a really simple choice. If you don't want to pay for the care of a horse don't get one.


  • #28
    doctor evil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,114 ✭✭✭doctor evil


    I am not advocating animals to be abandoned but to be snippy about people who decide to sell/have their animals pts solves nothing. Who are you to judge without knowing all the facts?

    People work very hard and make great sacrifices to pay for their animals.


  • #29
    Paul91
    Closed Accounts Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Paul91


    Discodog wrote: »
    A €100 dog license would have built in discounts for neutering, chipping etc. So a chipped, vacc'd, neutered dog would be more like €40 per year. Rescues & anyone taking a rescue dog would be exempt.

    bit OT - so my two rescue dogs would not need to be licensed - or am i getting it wrong again? where can i find the bill to read by the way?


  • #30
    puppy cat
    Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭puppy cat


    Thanks to everyone that gave helpful responses. I'll try to keep you updated with what happens.

    Having said that, there a few replies that went completely off topic as far as I'm concerned, so I'm in two minds about giving any sort of reply to be honest.

    Mods, maybe this thread should be locked as it seems to be getting a bit too arguementative for my liking. I was just looking for some advice, not an arguement.


  • Advertisement
  • #31
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,821 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Paul-91 wrote: »
    bit OT - so my two rescue dogs would not need to be licensed - or am i getting it wrong again? where can i find the bill to read by the way?

    The Bill has not been written yet. Earlier this year interested parties for example like the ISPCA, ANVIL, Field Sports Groups, basically anyone involved with animals, were invited to make submissions.

    I believe that their were a number of proposals regarding licensing including a one off lifetime license. Some thought that the license should be a high amount but then with substantial discounts to encourage, neutering, chipping & vaccs. There have also been thoughts that one should either not need a license for a rescue dog or that it should be at a lower cost. The biggest concern is that if the fee were increased that ALL the funds would go to animal welfare.

    The Bill will not be able to be viewed until a draft is issued & in truth it may never see the light of day. Already Matty McGrath has refused to accept the Coursing Ban proposed by the Greens & I suspect that even Puppy Farming will have some supporters.

    I would happily pay €100 each for my two if it meant that Pounds were a thing of the past.


Advertisement