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Ghosts/Apparitions/Spirits etc

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    #32
    krd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    maccored wrote: »
    when you're dealing with people who have experienced these things, they generally dont say things like "If you cannot present convincing and reasonable arguments for your belief then your belief may not be convincing or reasonable."

    Wait a second.

    This isn't people saying. "I've had an experience, and I have no way of explaining it". That' not what they're doing. They're couching the experience in terms of a scientific explanation. They quote the first law of thermodynamics - energy can neither be created nor destroy. That's the sciencey bit. Then it moves on to declare that all thought is energy, so thoughts can't be destroyed.

    All psuedoscience follows a similar pattern. First an established scientific law is quoted, then followed by an unsubstantiated extrapolation - using the established scientific law as its basis.

    Bit of quantum physics are twisted around too. The reality of quantum physics is as strange and hard to believe as the paranormal. Quantum particles seem to be in more than one place at once - they can seem to be everywhere, and only when they're measured in a very specific way, do they appear one place. This has been twisted around by some psuedoscientists to mean all reality is just a projection of the mind.

    The thing is. If ghosts and spirits really do exist. The half baked "scientific" explanations some people come up with do not explain them at al.


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    #33
    gillad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 368 ✭✭gillad


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    As a scientifically minded person, I demand some kind of evidence! :pac:
    Even a story of what happened, if that's OK.
    If you don't want feedback just say so, but I am very interested to hear your experience.



    That came a across as kinda condecending you know. :(
    (That means it sounded like you were talking down to me :P)

    I didnt mean to be condecending,id just love everyone to know what i know, but what i know has to be experienced to understand and believe and their are plenty of people who do know because im coming into contact with these people now.
    A lot of different stuff has happened to me and its private so i`ll just say one thing and i`ll leave it at that because i know i cant convince anyone without proof.
    What started all this was two different people at two different times joined their conscious mind with my conscious mind.That proved to me that consciousness is not trapped in the brain/body.It can go anywhere and its infinite.


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    #34
    gillad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 368 ✭✭gillad


    krd wrote: »
    Wait a second.

    This isn't people saying. "I've had an experience, and I have no way of explaining it". That' not what they're doing. They're couching the experience in terms of a scientific explanation. They quote the first law of thermodynamics - energy can neither be created nor destroy. That's the sciencey bit. Then it moves on to declare that all thought is energy, so thoughts can't be destroyed.

    All psuedoscience follows a similar pattern. First an established scientific law is quoted, then followed by an unsubstantiated extrapolation - using the established scientific law as its basis.

    Bit of quantum physics are twisted around too. The reality of quantum physics is as strange and hard to believe as the paranormal. Quantum particles seem to be in more than one place at once - they can seem to be everywhere, and only when they're measured in a very specific way, do they appear one place. This has been twisted around by some psuedoscientists to mean all reality is just a projection of the mind.

    The thing is. If ghosts and spirits really do exist. The half baked "scientific" explanations some people come up with do not explain them at al.

    Ya,i shouldnt be using the laws of science to try to explain this because what im trying to explain doesnt use the laws that we know of.Its a completely different reality and may have its own laws but im starting think that it may not have any laws at all and that anything is possible.


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    #35
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    gillad wrote: »
    What started all this was two different people at two different times joined their conscious mind with my conscious mind.That proved to me that consciousness is not trapped in the brain/body.It can go anywhere and its infinite.

    Thanks, I have a much better idea of what you believe now.

    Don't worry about the condecending bit, I don't get easily offended :p


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    #36
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Yeah I was hoping this wouldn't turn into the kind of thread where people have to justify their beliefs...I give full respect to followers of all the different faiths, & to hose who simply believe what they believe.

    I was hoping to discuss the paranormal & how it does or doesn't fit with with established laws/theories of physics & science. Stuff like gravity, energy, thermodynamics etc.

    Some great posts from both sides though


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    #37
    krd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    EnterNow wrote: »
    Yeah I was hoping this wouldn't turn into the kind of thread where people have to justify their beliefs...I give full respect to followers of all the different faiths, & to hose who simply believe what they believe.

    The thing is to never mix the two up. Science is not a religion. (Even though some people act as if it is). It's really about measuring things. What can't be measured is not science. It doesn't mean something is wrong - means it's not in the domain of science. Funnily, I know a very religious scientist. He keeps both his science and religion very separate from each other.

    Religion can get itself into trouble if it involves itself with science. Galileo was locked up for making the Catholic Church look like jack asses - they claimed the earth was the centre of the universe, and that the sun orbited earth. Galileo, proved them to incorrect. So they locked him up for making them look like eejits.

    The minute religious leaders begin expounding on scientific matters, they're on a hiding to nowhere.
    I was hoping to discuss the paranormal & how it does or doesn't fit with with established laws/theories of physics & science. Stuff like gravity, energy, thermodynamics etc.

    See, there's a few things - and don't take any of these as me confirming a belief in the paranormal.

    There is no scientific proof that the paranormal exists. But it might. It might be somewhere, where science just hasn't found. And if it does exist, it might follow all the laws of physics - gravity, quantum mechanics, etc.

    Science is strange enough as it is. 13.7 billion years ago. The universe appeared out of nothing - literally thin air. It was the size of a pinhead, then it exploded in a massive big bang. That isn't just a scientific theory, there is a lot of proof that this actually happened. Amazingly, there is a way to see back in time - back billions of years ago to the beginning of the universe - just by pointing telescopes into outer space, and knowing what to look for. The light from the big bang was so huge, it's still there - amazingly they can see a picture of the universe as it was billions of years ago.

    Energy cannot be created or destroyed.......But there is one major fluke - the creation of universe broke the law.


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    #38
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Cheers KRD :)

    Taking the discussion back down to Earth for a bit :p, the question of how non corporeal entities can interact with the corporeal world still hasn't really been touched on. How, if a spirit is non corporeal, do we hear stories of hauntings/poltergeist activity etc?

    Surely, if something like a spirit isn't made of matter, it can't interact with normal matter? And if a spirit id made of matter, where is the energy for its existence being got from & what form of matter it is?


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    #39
    gillad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 368 ✭✭gillad


    Science is strange enough as it is. 13.7 billion years ago. The universe appeared out of nothing - literally thin air. It was the size of a pinhead, then it exploded in a massive big bang. That isn't just a scientific theory, there is a lot of proof that this actually happened. Amazingly, there is a way to see back in time - back billions of years ago to the beginning of the universe - just by pointing telescopes into outer space, and knowing what to look for. The light from the big bang was so huge, it's still there - amazingly they can see a picture of the universe as it was billions of years ago.

    Energy cannot be created or destroyed.......But there is one major fluke - the creation of universe broke the law.[/QUOTE]

    There is no flaw in Albert Einsteins theory.
    Energy was not created in the the Big Bang.Energy expanded(not exploded)from a singularity(not thin air).Science does not know how or why this energy was compressed.Maybe it was compressed because of the expansion of another opposite universe(an anti-universe,just a thought).Our own universe may be now expanding into another universe that is collapsing.We dont know yet but we will one day.

    Energy cannot be created or destroyed


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    #40
    krd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    gillad wrote: »
    There is no flaw in Albert Einsteins theory.
    Energy was not created in the the Big Bang.Energy expanded(not exploded)

    Expanded, exploded, tomahto, tomayto.
    from a singularity(not thin air).

    If there isn't really any word I hate more in science, it's singularity. It doesn't really mean anything.
    Science does not know how or why this energy was compressed.Maybe it was compressed because of the expansion of another opposite universe(an anti-universe,just a thought).

    There are a lot of theories, but the only thing that is known - that can be seen for certain, is the early universe, 300,000 years after the big bang, when it cooled down enough to release light.
    Our own universe may be now expanding into another universe that is collapsing.We dont know yet but we will one day.

    We don't know that either. There are different theories. As of the minute we can't see another universe coming towards us. Our universe is so huge, you could travel it at the speed of light for millions of years and you still wouldn't cross it.
    Energy cannot be created or destroyed

    That's not completely true. We can't create energy out of thin air - but in thin air - or the vacuum, energy is being created all the time, out of nothing, energy and anti-energy, that happens so fast and cancels itself out so quickly we don't notice it.

    One main theory for the creation of universe was matter appeared out of nowhere - made of matter and anti-matter. Most of it cancelled itself out, but there was some imbalance and there was enough matter left over for our universe to exist.


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    #41
    krd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    EnterNow wrote: »
    Taking the discussion back down to Earth for a bit :p, the question of how non corporeal entities can interact with the corporeal world still hasn't really been touched on. How, if a spirit is non corporeal, do we hear stories of hauntings/poltergeist activity etc?

    We don't know if any of these stories of hauntings or poltergeists are true. Some stories are completely made up. Some incidents of poltergeist activity have been faked.

    Surely, if something like a spirit isn't made of matter, it can't interact with normal matter? And if a spirit id made of matter, where is the energy for its existence being got from & what form of matter it is?

    It is said when a ghost appears, they "materialise". They become matter - they could maybe grab whatever they can get their hands on, like the air. Certain theories in physics believe there are other dimensions that we cannot see. String theory. There's no reason the spirits couldn't be hiding out in those dimension...........but there isn't any reason why they could.

    The things is, scientists have been running all kinds of experiments for years, trying to find things. They find things by accident. They've found lots of things. One thing they haven't found is any trace of the paranormal.

    The first law of thermodynamics - energy can neither create nor destroyed, has been around a long time. But early theories of the universe - like the steady state theory, where the universe has always been there - Einstein initially believed this - in that theory, it was believed in parts of the universe the law didn't apply and stars and galaxies were being created all the time. There wasn't any theoretical reason why this should be happening, it was just the idea that it must be happening.


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    #42
    gillad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 368 ✭✭gillad


    EnterNow wrote: »
    Cheers KRD :)

    Taking the discussion back down to Earth for a bit :p, the question of how non corporeal entities can interact with the corporeal world still hasn't really been touched on. How, if a spirit is non corporeal, do we hear stories of hauntings/poltergeist activity etc?

    Surely, if something like a spirit isn't made of matter, it can't interact with normal matter? And if a spirit id made of matter, where is the energy for its existence being got from & what form of matter it is?

    Its vibrations and frequencies that seperate the different dimensions.
    Here is a very interesting article that explains it all.
    http://www.worlditc.org/f_02_macy_spirit_world_realms_0.htm


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    #43
    krd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    gillad wrote: »
    Its vibrations and frequencies that seperate the different dimensions.
    Here is a very interesting article that explains it all.
    http://www.worlditc.org/f_02_macy_spirit_world_realms_0.htm

    I read Mark Macy's piece. There's a few things wrong with it. Radio, and television signals are understood - they're made of electro-magnetic radiation. They're waves, they vibrate and have frequencies. But it's just the same as sun light. We don't really see these things with the naked eye - we can see light, but we can't see the waves, unless we set up certain scientific experiments - then we see them. Everything is radiating these waves all the time - but mostly it's just noise. I wouldn't be surprised if one day, computers could read thoughts - it may be possible - it may not. But a lot is known about the waves/vibrations all around us. As of the minute, no one can tune into human thoughts like they're a television signal.

    Though, every radio broadcast ever made on earth, some escapes into space - and will travel on for probably billions of years. There probably is alien life out there - one day, they'll point a telescope at our solar system, and they will hear music. But, for someone in the nearest galaxy to hear a radio broadcast from today, it will take 25,000 years. And the strange thing to, is if they had the right telescope they could look at you walking around, but it would be you 25,000 years in the past. And if they had even more advanced equipment - and if the brain gives off thoughts that can be read as radio signals, then they could read your thoughts. Even though you'd have been gone for close to 25,000 years.

    He claims there is a physical realm, and then goes on to say there's a quantum realm - where he gives a description of this quantum world. He's making stuff up. The real quantum world, is part of the physical world. It's the stuff that happens down at the atom scale - but it happens all around us. It is part of our physical reality. Whatever he's describing he shouldn't be calling it the quantum realm.

    See, this where everything starts going wrong - people grab a word like quantum and use it, because it's mysterious and sciencey.


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    #44
    Silvics
    Closed Accounts Posts: 128 ✭✭Silvics


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    ... to the quantum vibrational energies of ...
    please explain:confused:


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    #45
    Dramatik
    Registered Users Posts: 899 ✭✭✭Dramatik


    EnterNow wrote: »

    If something appears & is visible, it must be subject to the laws of nature & gravity.

    Personally I think that it's subject to the laws of the dimension in which it resides, not our own. In my opinion it's more like our dimension sometimes overlaps with it's dimension and sometimes under the right conditions, information from their dimension leaks through to our dimension, I'm not sure how or why this happens but that's the way I look at it.

    A dimension doesn't have to be like ours either eg. something with physical objects, gravity ect. It could be an infinate space completely made of different forms of energy/entitys. There could be nothing existing in it, it could be a blank canvas waiting for the big bang to happen. I try not to think about these kinds of things though as it completely frys my brain!


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    #46
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    krd wrote: »
    The thing is. If ghosts and spirits really do exist. The half baked "scientific" explanations some people come up with do not explain them at al.

    I totally agree.


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    #47
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    maccored wrote: »
    I totally agree.

    I also agree, but more so because science cannot account for something that doesn't exist.


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    #48
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    EnterNow wrote: »
    I also agree, but more so because science cannot account for something that doesn't exist.

    thank goodness you arent a scientist or else we'd never find out anything. Science is a learning, evolving thing. Not a static book with unchangable rules in it.
    something that doesn't exist

    You're meant to leave your cynicism at the door ... this is a skeptics forum.


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    #49
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    maccored wrote: »
    thank goodness you arent a scientist or else we'd never find out anything. Science is a learning, evolving thing. Not a static book with unchangable rules in it.

    True, but after all thats been invested in researching the paranormal, is there a single shred or scrap of evidence to prove it exists? Anything?
    You're meant to leave your cynicism at the door ... this is a skeptics forum.

    I'm skeptical about the existence of ghosts & apparitions. Do I need to have written scientific papers on the subject to be allowed have an opinion now?


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    #50
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    EnterNow wrote: »
    True, but after all thats been invested in researching the paranormal, is there a single shred or scrap of evidence to prove it exists? Anything?

    Sorry ... but who's been studying the paranormal? not too many people thats for sure. Lots of 'ghost busting' but very, very little research. There have been and there are people researching the paranormal but theres no way research has been ongoing long enough. Not unless you believe the paranormal starts and ends with mediums and ESP.

    I'm skeptical about the existence of ghosts & apparitions. Do I need to have written scientific papers on the subject to be allowed have an opinion now?

    saying something doesnt exist is not skeptical. thats a cynical statement. if you believe its all bull**** then you no longer have any doubts ... ie you are no longer skeptical.


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    #51
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    maccored wrote: »
    saying something doesnt exist is not skeptical. thats a cynical statement. if you believe its all bull**** then you no longer have any doubts ... ie you are no longer skeptical.

    So what are you saying, if I've made up my mind then I'm not entitled to be posting here? Give me a break


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    #52
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    maccored wrote: »
    saying something doesnt exist is not skeptical. thats a cynical statement.

    The luminous ether doesn't exist. God what a cynic I am. :rolleyes:

    http://physics.about.com/od/physicsitol/g/Interferometer.htm


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    #53
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Dramatik wrote: »
    Personally I think that it's subject to the laws of the dimension in which it resides, not our own. In my opinion it's more like our dimension sometimes overlaps with it's dimension and sometimes under the right conditions, information from their dimension leaks through to our dimension, I'm not sure how or why this happens but that's the way I look at it.

    A dimension doesn't have to be like ours either eg. something with physical objects, gravity ect. It could be an infinate space completely made of different forms of energy/entitys. There could be nothing existing in it, it could be a blank canvas waiting for the big bang to happen. I try not to think about these kinds of things though as it completely frys my brain!
    If something is visible in our dimension then it is having an effect on our dimension which should be measurable.


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    #54
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    kylith wrote: »
    If something is visible in our dimension then it is having an effect on our dimension which should be measurable.

    I can buy the 'dimensional overlap' theory to a point, but when you get down to reports of spirits physically affecting things in this reality, such as poltergeists & possessions etc...thats when it goes out the window for me.

    And again, if you can see something, it must be affected by the Earths gravity given the Earth is rotating at 1000mph & orbiting the Sun at 60,000mph.


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    #55
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    EnterNow wrote: »
    I can buy the 'dimensional overlap' theory to a point, but when you get down to reports of spirits physically affecting things in this reality, such as poltergeists & possessions etc...thats when it goes out the window for me.

    And again, if you can see something, it must be affected by the Earths gravity given the Earth is rotating at 1000mph & orbiting the Sun at 60,000mph.

    Also trying to fit ghosts into the evolutionary theory of biology is almost impossible. On the other hand we have a very clear understanding of why humans would think they are seeing apparitions when they really aren't.


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    #56
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    EnterNow wrote: »
    So what are you saying, if I've made up my mind then I'm not entitled to be posting here? Give me a break

    what?

    Im saying if you dont believe something, stop pretending you are skeptical about it. skeptical is when you doubt something.


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    #57
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Zombrex wrote: »
    The luminous ether doesn't exist. God what a cynic I am. :rolleyes:

    http://physics.about.com/od/physicsitol/g/Interferometer.htm

    jesus christ ... cop the fúck on.

    You arent in here telling the world how skeptical you are of luminous ether.

    If you are going to have a debate, Im on for it. If on the other hand you're going to come up with non nonsensical, idiotic one liners trying to make yourself look intelligent then you're on your own on that one.


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    #58
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Zombrex wrote: »
    On the other hand we have a very clear understanding of why humans would think they are seeing apparitions when they really aren't.

    We do? Please tell us what your very clear understanding is. Make sure its 'very clear', and that it can apply to anyone who thinks they have seen an apparition and try not to say 'sleep paralysis'. Good to see the 'paranormal' now extends from mediums and psychics and now includes 'apparitions'. once you've managed to explain all the other bits of the paranormal, wake me up.


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    #59
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    maccored wrote: »
    We do? Please tell us what your very clear understanding is. Make sure its 'very clear', and that it can apply to anyone who thinks they have seen an apparition and try not to say 'sleep paralysis'. Good to see the 'paranormal' now extends from mediums and psychics and now includes 'apparitions'. once you've managed to explain all the other bits of the paranormal, wake me up.

    A short list of things that can cause people to think they've seen ghosts when they haven't
    Sleep Paralysis - You half wake up, your body is paralysed, (which is completely normal and stops you from acting out your dreams), and your brain is still half asleep. Common sights are old women, demons, aliens, or even just 'a presence', accompanied by feelings of fear and being trapped.
    Hypnogogic hallucination - Being on the cusp of sleep, either waking or nodding off, and having dreams bleed over into the waking mind.
    Charles Bonnet Syndrome - a condition that causes patients with visual loss to have complex visual hallucinations. I.e; some people, as their eyesight worsens, start to hallucinate.
    Pareidolia - the human brain is a pattern seeking machine, to the extent that it will see faces or figures in anything from toast, to trees, to clouds.
    Being mistaken. There's no wikipedia link for this because it doesn't need one; sometimes people think they see something and they are mistaken.


    Interestingly there's a thread on the parnormal on another forum I frequent; someone recounted a very entertaining story of a friend seeing a ghostly white figure walking toward them before vanishing only to reappear at its original location a few minutes later. I'm going to quote the rest of his post here:
    Several other people had by this time seen it, and after some discussion he and another guy plucked up the courage to go and investigate.

    It was a cow. A black and white cow. It happened to be white down its front and legs, and black everywhere else. It was wandering up and down in a field just beyond the graveyard. Its white front was visible when it walked towards the graveyard, but when it turned around its black rump was not.

    What struck him most about the incident was that, if he hadn't investigated, he would never in a million years have come up with the explanation. Moreover if anyone had suggested that explanation he would have laughed in their faces. "A cow? With only two legs?".

    Just because you can't think of an explanation doesn't mean there isn't one. Sometimes you simply don't have the information you need to work it out.


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    #60
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    maccored wrote: »
    what?

    Im saying if you dont believe something, stop pretending you are skeptical about it. skeptical is when you doubt something.

    I'm not pretending anything here :) Whats your point?


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    #61
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    maccored wrote: »
    what?

    Im saying if you dont believe something, stop pretending you are skeptical about it. skeptical is when you doubt something.

    Why would I believe something I doubt?


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