How do you perceive the overall work of the Gardai

TheNog · 02-11-2008 1:40am #1

Topic of discussion - Do you trust the Gardai to do the job that is necessary to protect the public and investigate crime?

Ok this is probably going to be a contentious thread so some rules first

1. No full time or part time members are allowed to vote

2. If you feel you have a grievance then post a clear picture of the event where you felt you were treated badly

3. Ensure you are open to honest opinions 'cos that is what you will get

4. Charter rules apply. Any breach of the Charter will get a warning first. Second breach will earn you a few days holidays from this forum. This applies to first time and regular posters alike.

Boston · 02-11-2008 1:59am

TheNog wrote: »

oh come on Hagar show me a profession that doesn't have some bad apples in it.

In my profession I'd be the first the shaft a colleague who was abusing their position in any way shape of form. Most of those I work with would be the same. I don't feel thats the same with the gardai. Theres a huge "them and us" mentality and the blue wall of silence is a common thing whenever there is an outside investigation into gardai actions. The gardai have extensive and wide reaching powers, far more then in allot of other countries, but at the same time no where near the same level of public oversight. I'll trust the gardai when I have faith in the system which claims to hold them accountable.

Boston · 02-11-2008 2:07am

You really want people to post up story about what X gardai did?

seanybiker · 02-11-2008 2:09am

every job has a few knob heads in it. Overall though i think majority of cops are grand and do a good job

TheNog · 02-11-2008 2:11am

Yeah I don't see why not. People who post may be able to get the other side of the story of how we percieve it i.e. getting viewpoints from the other side of the fence.

Boston · 02-11-2008 2:13am

seanybiker wrote: »

every job has a few knob heads in it. Overall though i think majority of cops are grand and do a good job

In fairness, the question isn't "how many knobs" are in the gardai, or the type of job they do, it's "do you trust them". I'm well aware of the job they do, and the people they deal.

Firetrap · 02-11-2008 2:22am

I can only comment on the experiences I've had with my local gardai. I wish they'd do more to help the public with minor things - I'm not talking here about homicides or corruption or anything.

Simple example: a few weeks ago a relative of mine discovered there were cattle out on a busy main road (a national secondary route with a 100km/h speed limit) so they rang the guards. The guard on the other end of the line was less than helpful - he suggested my relative should look up the owner of the cattle themselves.

I appreciate they've got a tough job to do and that the system doesn't always support them but when your local guards don't bother to do something about getting loose cattle off a busy road or to even answer the phone in the local station, there's something wrong.

peanuthead · 02-11-2008 2:26am

I have always thought that they were idiots and would have once said that I dont trust them, but of late I have noticed them around more, seen them getting involved more, and I have to say these days yes I would trust them to do the job they are supposed to do.

seanybiker · 02-11-2008 2:29am

Boston wrote: »

In fairness, the question isn't "how many knobs" are in the gardai, or the type of job they do, it's "do you trust them". I'm well aware of the job they do, and the people they deal.

I know what the question was. I answered it.

Eru · 02-11-2008 2:33am

I didnt vote as per the rules. Simple reality, policework must be secretive. Police must have a certain amount of suspicion when dealing with everyone in order to catch criminals.

We are governed and limited by law in many cases and what people percieve as open and shut cases may not be so black and white legally. If you want us to remain inside the law when dealing with you then we must stay inside the law when dealing with your complaint and any suspects. You cant have it both ways. This goes for a whole list of crimes that people make assumptions about with possible the most obvious one being drug dealing. Folks, only certain drugs qualify as 'drug dealing' and the requirements to prove the case in court is not as simple as "I saw him hand the other guy a bag" which is often what trial by media uses.

People often genuinely believe, hand on heart, that Johnny broke their car window (or whatever) and maybe he did but we cant arrest Johnny unless we have genuine evidence that will stand up in court. Now this may be upsetting to people but at the end of the day the stats are there. Thousands of crimes are being solved, assaults murders, etc. drugs and weapons being found in record numbers, countless drunk drivers being stopped and people are going to jail so evidently the Gardai must be doing their jobs to some extent.

Lets also not forget that Ireland still has a low crime rate on a global setting and far fewer police officers per head of population so evidently were stopping the crimes from happening in the first place. Obviously there are no figures for 'crimes prevented' but that doesnt mean its not happening.

Now, obviously by the same token there are Gardai not pulling their weight but for the life of me I dont understand where people get this 'Gardai protect their own' thing or indeed that were not accountable. Were far more accountable than most police forces with the exceptions being possible the London MET and the PSNI. Were one of the few countries with both an internal affairs department and an independent investigation agency. The Ombudsman also has more powers to investigate Gardai than Gardai have themselves to investigate criminals.

And an interesting little fact, Garda internal affairs have conducted more investigations and resulted in more sackings / charges against corrupt Gardai than either the Ombudsman here, the complaints board and indeed the PSNI ombudsman has (against PSNI officers). For gods sake, the last 10 Gardai arrested was as a result of GARDA investigations. Out of them 6 went to court, 4 were convicted and 4 sacked.

I will tell you this though, we cant investigate the crime if you dont report it and we sure as hell cant prosecute it if you wont give evidence!

Eru · 02-11-2008 2:38am

Firetrap wrote: »

I can only comment on the experiences I've had with my local gardai. I wish they'd do more to help the public with minor things - I'm not talking here about homicides or corruption or anything.

Simple example: a few weeks ago a relative of mine discovered there were cattle out on a busy main road (a national secondary route with a 100km/h speed limit) so they rang the guards. The guard on the other end of the line was less than helpful - he suggested my relative should look up the owner of the cattle themselves.

I appreciate they've got a tough job to do and that the system doesn't always support them but when your local guards don't bother to do something about getting loose cattle off a busy road or to even answer the phone in the local station, there's something wrong.

I understand this is a common problem in rural areas but in fairness, were police officers not farmers. Were no more capable of rounding up sheep or cows than you are. Secondly, surely dealing with crime is a better way to spend their time? Unless of course you wanted the cattle arrested for obstructing traffic?

(thats a joke)

Boston · 02-11-2008 2:40am

Karlitosway1978 how many of those persecutions where as a results of Gardai reporting their colleagues?

djtechnics1210 · 02-11-2008 2:49am

There is a confidential process for reporting colleagues.. so there is no way of finding out how many investigations were as a result of people reporting members that needed reporting... needless to say though i don't think that internal affairs picked 8 names out of 14,000 and just happened to be right!!! of course they were reported but there has to be confidentiality in reporting members and rightly so too.

Eru · 02-11-2008 2:51am

Boston wrote: »

Karlitosway1978 how many of those persecutions where as a results of Gardai reporting their colleagues?

we dont report crime we investigate it.

Of the ten I believe 4 were as a direct result of a Garda arresting another Garda there and then. 5 were because of complaints made to Gardai by the public and 1 was a sting operation against a suspected corrupt officer which may or may not have been reported by another Garda (its confidential).

If I break it down more, 4 were for assault, 2 for theft, 2 for drink driving and 1 for posession of drugs.

There may have been more that I dont know about and theres probable dozens of internal discipline cases that I wouldnt know about.

Cunning · 02-11-2008 2:52am

i think the guards have a difficult job, are under resourced and i have the perception that they are required to spend way too much time on admin tasks.

my dealings with the guards have always been on the right side of the law.
i have found older guards to have a more measured and considered response to situations, i have found them pragmatic, reasonable and fair.

on the other hand, i have very little confidence in younger gardai / reserves.
In once instace i expressed a concern to a younger guard about potential damage to his squad car, his response was "**** it, its not my car".
i have also observed (as i'm sure many have) younger guards completely absorbed by their mobile phones. they seem to lack a bit of common sense.

with age comes wisdom.
i think they do their best.

edit:
final thought,
i think response time is abismal.

arson atttack response time:
fire brigade (5miles away) response circa 10 minutes
gardai (2 miles away) response 1 hour + !!!!
(i know an arson attack may not be as much a priority for gardai as fire brigade but still)

djtechnics1210 · 02-11-2008 2:53am

If you look an at another post there's currently a female member before the courts for making a false accusation against a taxi driver.. again this was investigated by the gardai and she is being prosecuted by a garda

Boston · 02-11-2008 2:55am

Why the need for a confidential process? A member of the public has no anonymity when complaining against a gardai, but gardai do when complaining about each other? Either way, the source of the complains (internal Vs external) would be known. Typically do gardai fully cooperate with this internal investigations?

Boston · 02-11-2008 3:02am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

we dont report crime we investigate it.

That comment and the attitude which goes with it, is exactly why I don't trust Gardai.

djtechnics1210: Karl there says he wouldn't report her. I'm sure others felt the same. How someone like that could last in a job without every person they worked with knowing exactly the type of loon they where is beyond me.

Like, fair play to the gardai, they dismiss or charge their own when the corruptions of incompetence becomes too blatant to hide.

TheNog · 02-11-2008 3:23am

Cunning wrote: »

edit:
final thought,
i think response time is abismal.

arson atttack response time:
fire brigade (5miles away) response circa 10 minutes
gardai (2 miles away) response 1 hour + !!!!
(i know an arson attack may not be as much a priority for gardai as fire brigade but still)

You have to remember that for non emergency calls such as the arson, we are restricted by traffic as are you. Also the scene of an arson does not necessarily become a matter for the Gardai until after the Fire Brigade have finished with the fire and making the scene safe.

To compare the fire brigade and Garda response times is a little unbalanced because the Fire brigade don't get anywhere near as many calls as the Gardai do. That's my experience of it in the country, don't know about the city but guessing it similar.

TheNog · 02-11-2008 3:30am

Boston wrote: »

Why the need for a confidential process? A member of the public has no anonymity when complaining against a gardai, but gardai do when complaining about each other? Either way, the source of the complains (internal Vs external) would be known. Typically do gardai fully cooperate with this internal investigations?

If you complained about a colleague, wouldn't your name be withheld?

If a person reported me then shouldn't I be afforded the chance to look up the incident on the computer or my notebook so to refresh my memory?

An example of this is actually a complaint that was made against me. A woman wrote into my Super to complain that there was a very strong smell of alcohol from my breath. Now if the Super was to ask me what the story was, how would be able to respond with just the above info. I couldn't. The Super told me her name and the date I stopped her for speeding. I'm not a person to drink often and the complaint was thrown out.

djtechnics1210 · 02-11-2008 3:36am

Boston wrote: »

That comment and the attitude which goes with it, is exactly why I don't trust Gardai.

djtechnics1210: Karl there says he wouldn't report her. I'm sure others felt the same. How someone like that could last in a job without every person they worked with knowing exactly the type of loon they where is beyond me.

Like, fair play to the gardai, they dismiss or charge their own when the corruptions of incompetence becomes too blatant to hide.

Now fair is fair karlitos post was before mine so he didnt comment on her case as you stated he did. i believe that members of AGS will report wrong doing, but in nearly all cases the member does not have to report it because most supervisors will have reported it already. No member wants to loose their job/house etc etc over a wrongdoing = so members don't do wrong. i know i wont do wrong when i'm working because i believe in it.. being professional is the best way, no one can complain when your attitude is professional, i treat everyone as i would like my own family to be treated, the members i know and have had the pleasure to work with are the same.

Bren1609 · 02-11-2008 4:11am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

we dont report crime we investigate it.

Of the ten I believe 4 were as a direct result of a Garda arresting another Garda there and then. 5 were because of complaints made to Gardai by the public and 1 was a sting operation against a suspected corrupt officer which may or may not have been reported by another Garda (its confidential).

If I break it down more, 4 were for assault, 2 for theft, 2 for drink driving and 1 for posession of drugs.

There may have been more that I dont know about and theres probable dozens of internal discipline cases that I wouldnt know about.

What about Donegal? Retired on full pension.

TheNog · 02-11-2008 4:14am

Bren1609 wrote: »

What about Donegal? Retired on full pension.

Anyone is any job is allowed to retire if facing a dismissal and there is no company or organisation in this country that can take your pension off you.

Firetrap · 02-11-2008 11:49am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I understand this is a common problem in rural areas but in fairness, were police officers not farmers. Were no more capable of rounding up sheep or cows than you are. Secondly, surely dealing with crime is a better way to spend their time? Unless of course you wanted the cattle arrested for obstructing traffic? (thats a joke)

My relative didn't know whose cattle they were. How on earth were they supposed to know? That's why they'd rung the guards in the first place. The cattle have tags on their ears =>Guards could find out from there who owned them.

Yes, I know guards are not farmers and shouldn't be out in their wellies rounding up stray cattle but the fact that they couldn't be bothered to do anything about it is serious in my book. The owner should have been told that their cattle were on the road and could have caused a serious accident. Like i said, it's a busy road these animals were on, not a winding country lane.

Boston · 02-11-2008 12:13pm

TheNog wrote: »

If you complained about a colleague, wouldn't your name be withheld?

If a person reported me then shouldn't I be afforded the chance to look up the incident on the computer or my notebook so to refresh my memory?

An example of this is actually a complaint that was made against me. A woman wrote into my Super to complain that there was a very strong smell of alcohol from my breath. Now if the Super was to ask me what the story was, how would be able to respond with just the above info. I couldn't. The Super told me her name and the date I stopped her for speeding. I'm not a person to drink often and the complaint was thrown out.

Nope, why would it be withheld? Why the need for a confidential system? Could it be that our of fear that corrupt gardai would seek reprisals reporting them?

djtechnics1210: Karl stated he doesn't report colleagues. You're stance that no one does any wrong because no one wants to loose a job is naive.

Hagar · 02-11-2008 12:15pm

TheNog wrote: »

Here is a link to a public perception survey that was done by the guards in 2004 which shows an 85% approval rating. www.garda.ie/pub/pas2004.doc

Your thinking makes no sense at all. You have no reason to trust them and therefore are have no reason not to trust us either. I think you are listening to too many people who self claimed experts in policing.

The rest of your comments are pure and utter tripe of the highest order and bordering on flaming to boot.

I have been disrespected and shown disdain by people from all walks of life whether they work in the guards, banking, retail etc. Doesn't mean I make a generalisation and assume that they are all useless.

Here's a link to today's Irish Times poll.

Question: Do you think the Garda Síochána has the confidence of the public?

Response:
43% YES
57% NO

Here's a link to the 2008 Garda Public Attitudes Survey published by the Irish Times about two weeks ago.

72% want improvements in Garda service

CHARLIE TAYLORMost people remain satisfied with the service provided by the gardai but as many as 72 per cent of respondents to a new survey feel that improvements need to be made.
The 2008 Garda Public Attitudes Survey, which focuses on satisfaction with Garda service as well as policing
priorities and experiences and fear of crime, shows that 81 per cent of the population are satisfied with the
overall service provided to the community. This is the same percentage as in 2007. However, there were wide
disparancies with satisfaction rates ranging from 71 to 89 per cent within different Garda divisions.

Some 44 per cent of respondents said they had contact with the gardaí last year and Satisfaction with overall
contact with the Gardaí was 79 per cent.

According to the survey,72 per cent of respondents felt that the Garda service needed to be improved with the most frequent suggestions calling for greater manpower, more foot patrols, more contact with the community and longer station opening hours.

The study, which was conducted by Millward Brown IMS between January and April of this year, involved interviews with 10,000 individuals.

Some 91 per cent of respondents described Gardaí at their local station as either ‘very approachable’ or
‘approachable’.

In addition, 82 per cent of respondents felt that the Gardaí did a good job in the locality, although satisfaction
rates were found to belower among local authority tenants compared with other housing tenure categories.

As many as 53 per cent of the public reported seeing a Garda in their locality in the previous week. Sixty-five per cent of respondents said they were satisfied with the level of Garda visibility in their locality, a rise of 3 per
cent on the preceding year.
On a divisional basis, ratings for how good a job the Gardaí do in the locality ranged from 73 per cent in Donegal to 93 per cent in Cork West

Responses about the relationship between the Gardaí and the community showed high degrees of confidence that anyone in Garda custody would have their rights fully respected, that the Gardaí would help if a person’s rights were infringed and that the Gardaí carry out their role in a fair and impartial manner.
Commenting on the survey findings, Garda commissioner Fachtna Murphy said he was pleased that overall satisfaction with An Garda Síochána remains strong.

"It is important that individuals who seek our help and assistance receive a quality and professional service. At
the core of that service must be our ability to deal effectively with members of the public. While these survey
findings provide some reassurance that this is happening on a daily basis, there is no room for complacency and surveys such as this guide and inform us as we strive to provide an even better service into the future," he said.

According to the survey, crime victimisation rates were down slightly with 9.2 per cent of respondents saying that they or a member of their household had been a victim of crime in 2007, down by 0.6 per cent compared to 2006. The most prevalent crimes were domestic burglary, criminal damage to vehicle, physical assault, criminal damage to home or other property and theft from vehicle.

Over 80 per cent of those who had been victims of crime said they had reported the incident to the Gardai, a decline of 3 per cent on the preceding year. Of these, just 44 per cent expressed satisfaction with being kept informed of progress in the investigation.
With regard to perceptions of crime, one in four people said they were worried about being targeted by
criminals and 21 per cent of respondents said they felt less safe when out walking. In addition, a total of 89 per cent of individuals said they though crime is increasing, while 57 per cent described crime as a very serious problem.
Fine Gael said the survey findings showed that Fianna Fáil has failed to clamp down on crime despite election pledges to make people feel safer.
“This survey sends a very clear message to Justice Minister Dermot Ahern before Budget Day: people want greater Garda manpower, more foot patrols, more contact with the community and longer Garda station
opening hours. They also want a Government that is tough on criminals and tough on crime. That is why Minister Ahern must ensure that frontline Garda services are not slashed in tomorrow’s Budget," said Fine Gael's Justice spokesman Charles Flanagan.
© 2008 irishtimes.com

For emphasis I'll un-spin the results.

72% of respondents felt that improvements need to be made.

19% are not satisfied with the overall service provided to the community.

Satisfaction rates ranging from 71% to 89% within different Garda divisions.

44% of respondents had contact with the gardaí last year and satisfaction with overall contact with the Gardaí was 79 per cent.

72% felt that the Garda service needed to be improved with the most frequent suggestions calling for greater manpower, more foot patrols, more contact with the community and longer station opening hours.

9% desrcibed Gardaí at their local station as neither ‘very approachable’ nor ‘approachable’.

18% felt that the Gardaí did not do a good job in the locality, although satisfaction rates were found to be lower among local authority tenants compared with other housing tenure categories.

47% did not see a Garda in their locality in the previous week.
35% were not satisfied with the level of Garda visibility in their locality, an improvement of 3% on the preceding year.
On a divisional basis, 27% in Donegal to 7% in Cork West did not feel the Gardai were doing a good job.

Responses about the relationship between the Gardaí and the community showed high degrees of confidence that anyone in Garda custody would have their rights fully respected, that the Gardaí would help if a person’s rights were infringed and that the Gardaí carry out their role in a fair and impartial manner.

9.2% said that they or a member of their household had been a victim of crime in 2007, down by 0.6% on 2006.
Basically 1 household in ten is the victim of reported crime.
20% of people who had been victims of crime said they had not reported the incident to the Gardai, a increase of 3% on 2006.
56% expressed dissatisfaction with being kept informed of progress in the investigation.
25% said they were worried about being targeted by criminals
21% said they felt less safe when out walking
89% said they thought crime is increasing
57% described crime as a very serious problem.

“This survey sends a very clear message to Justice Minister Dermot Ahern before Budget Day: people want greater Garda manpower, more foot patrols, more contact with the community and longer Garda station opening hours. They also want a Government that is tough on criminals and tough on crime. That is why Minister Ahern must ensure that frontline Garda services are not slashed in tomorrow’s Budget," said Fine Gael's Justice spokesman Charles Flanagan.

I don't think what I said mis-represented general public opinion by too great a degree.

Flaming - no
Talking tripe - no
Off topic - probably yes, sincere apologies offered, I got a bit caught up in the moment.

02-11-2008 12:51pm

... I've edited this until I'm in a better mood

(just got off nights)

airscotty · 02-11-2008 1:14pm

Young Persons Perspective:

From my experience they are pretty rude and not very helpful. (Huge generalisation there) The problem for the G.S is they get very little respect for young males and i think this is down to the way they treat them.

I was stopped at a cheak point one night and was breathalised (had'nt had a drop so i knew i was grand) the garda then walked abound my car taking reg, tax, nct n insurance details and asking me my name address age etc as if he was gonna nick me!! I was thinking to my-self "what the hell" is the machine broken...have i failed!! He then says go2 ur local garda station within 7days r wha ever it was....so i asked him.. "sorry why? is there a problem?" And he replies is a cheaky tone "YES, one of ur back lights is broken...get it fixed n show the local garda station!!"

So i get it fixed n go down the show them and the guy in the station laughts at me n says he not gonna waste his time lookin at my back light so sends me on my way!!

Cheers for wasting my time.

Iv heard numerous other stories from friends on mine also 20 something males.

metman · 02-11-2008 1:44pm

*bashes AGS repeatedly* was feeling a bit left out so I thought I'd join in!

:P

TheNog · 02-11-2008 2:27pm

Firetrap wrote: »

My relative didn't know whose cattle they were. How on earth were they supposed to know? That's why they'd rung the guards in the first place. The cattle have tags on their ears =>Guards could find out from there who owned them.

Yes, I know guards are not farmers and shouldn't be out in their wellies rounding up stray cattle but the fact that they couldn't be bothered to do anything about it is serious in my book. The owner should have been told that their cattle were on the road and could have caused a serious accident. Like i said, it's a busy road these animals were on, not a winding country lane.

We cannot find who owns cattle because we are not privvy to that information. The Dept of Agriculture would have it alright but not us and they won't even give the owner of the cattle to us. I have tried myself without success.

I remember being told in my station that a guard put stray cattle into a field (the wrong field). The cattle then ate some of the silage the farmer had stored there. The guard was blamed for it. I don't know if compensation was paid to the farmer or what. Damned if you, damned if you don't.

Boston wrote: »

Nope, why would it be withheld? Why the need for a confidential system? Could it be that our of fear that corrupt gardai would seek reprisals reporting them?

Look I used to work in middle management for 7 yrs before joining the AGS and I know for a fact that any complaints that were made against another employee had to be confidential unless the complainant was directly injured in some way by the other. There is not a company that freely give out information on who complained unless it was needed in the investigation.

airscotty wrote: »

Young Persons Perspective:

From my experience they are pretty rude and not very helpful. (Huge generalisation there) The problem for the G.S is they get very little respect for young males and i think this is down to the way they treat them.

I was stopped at a cheak point one night and was breathalised (had'nt had a drop so i knew i was grand) the garda then walked abound my car taking reg, tax, nct n insurance details and asking me my name address age etc as if he was gonna nick me!! I was thinking to my-self "what the hell" is the machine broken...have i failed!! He then says go2 ur local garda station within 7days r wha ever it was....so i asked him.. "sorry why? is there a problem?" And he replies is a cheaky tone "YES, one of ur back lights is broken...get it fixed n show the local garda station!!"

So i get it fixed n go down the show them and the guy in the station laughts at me n says he not gonna waste his time lookin at my back light so sends me on my way!!

Cheers for wasting my time.

Iv heard numerous other stories from friends on mine also 20 something males.

TBH the taking of your name and address and the car details is standard enough. You were also probably asked to produce your insurance. As for your back light, well its not a minor offence in itself. There are too many people driving around with dodgy lights and when they get pulled over, they get all defensive and claim harassement of some sort.

Just an observation from your post, the guard didn't prosecute you for the broken light which he could have but instead decided to give you a chance to get it fixed and have it legal again. Does that not tell you something?

Also don't fully believe everything you are told even by friends. There is always two sides to the story.

Boston · 02-11-2008 2:32pm

TheNog wrote: »

Look I used to work in middle management for 7 yrs before joining the AGS and I know for a fact that any complaints that were made against another employee had to be confidential unless the complainant was directly injured in some way by the other. There is not a company that freely give out information on who complained unless it was needed in the investigation.

Point -> missed.
Why aren't the public afforded the same benefit?

How do you perceive the overall work of the Gardai

Do you trust the Gardai 135 votes

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