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Driving Unaccompanied on Learner Permit?

  • 08-02-2011 10:36am
    #1
    epiphone
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭


    I'm just wondering are there many people driving unaccompanied on a learner Permit?

    My son just failed his test and I feel he is a competent driver. I have never allowed him out unaccompanied but from what I can see a lot of young drivers are driving unaccompanied. I feel I should allow him drive locally now on his own. He is 18.

    Is anybody here driving unaccompanied? Are the guards checking for this?


Comments

  • #2
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    Plenty are driving unaccompanied, and relatively few are prosecuted

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfmheyeykfoj/rss2/

    However, if your son failed his test he is not qualified to be on the road alone, irrespective of your opinion that he is "competent"


  • #3
    JoeySully
    Registered Users Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭JoeySully


    There was a guy speaking on newstalk yesterday evening that was going to Mount Joy today for driving Un-accompanied! He however did not pay the €150?? fine handed to him by the Judge. Sentenced to 6 days imprisonment.

    I cannot find any reference to this story online though.


  • #4
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056173144


  • #5
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    OP, are you really asking for peoples blessing because you are considering letting your son break the law?

    Would you let your son rob a bank, or snort cocaine?


  • #6
    Tordelback
    Registered Users Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Tordelback


    The ridiculous part of this is that someone who has failed their test gets to drive away from the test centre. I failed my first test for (in the words of the examiner) going "way, way too fast" (my instructor had a mantra of 'make progress, make progress' which I took too literally), and then he watched me get into my Micra and (presumably) speed away. Madness.

    The requirement on being accompanied is the only thing that puts any kind of a brake on potentially lethally incompetent drivers being spat back out onto the roads. Not suggesting the OP's son is in this bracket, but that's why the attempt-at-a-law is there.


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  • #7
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    epiphone wrote: »
    I'm just wondering are there many people driving unaccompanied on a learner Permit?

    My son just failed his test and I feel he is a competent driver. I have never allowed him out unaccompanied but from what I can see a lot of young drivers are driving unaccompanied. I feel I should allow him drive locally now on his own. He is 18.

    Is anybody here driving unaccompanied? Are the guards checking for this?

    If he cannot pass a very basic driving test he is not competent.
    If he is so competent, apply for a new date and a cancellation.
    Do not let him drive unaccompanied until then.


  • #8
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Tordelback wrote: »
    The ridiculous part of this is that someone who has failed their test gets to drive away from the test centre. I failed my first test for (in the words of the examiner) going "way, way too fast" (my instructor had a mantra of 'make progress, make progress' which I took too literally), and then he watched me get into my Micra and (presumably) speed away. Madness.

    I'm going to assume you didn't actually drive away unaccompanied...


  • #9
    Humans eh!
    Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭Humans eh!


    I drive on a learner permit,
    I got a car last May because the Irish weather and my age don't mix any more.
    I currently cannot afford to pay to take my test as every penny counts and I cannot spare the seventy five quid at this moment.
    My insurance on a 1.4 -99 golf is 1450 euro which is a lot to me. I ensure my vehicle is taxed and insured at all times.
    I am 42 years old.
    I hold a full valid clean motorcycle licence for 14 years (+ 1 year on provisional) and had two provisional licences on my parents car before I emigratred when I was 20. Never had a speeding or even a parking ticket in my life.

    Do you think having a 17 year old who passed their test last week beside me will help me improve? or make me safer?

    I drive a small car carefully, and dilligently, I appreciate my car and its comfort (compared to biking @42) and hate dangerous drivers and my roadcraft has been honed by over 17 years driving on Irish roads. I used my bike(s) every day traveling to work etc, I was a motorcycle courier in Dublin for a year (seen it all) and have traveled through every county in Ireland, large parts of England (when I lived there) France, Belguim, and Germany. I find it funny that I cannot drive my car on a motorway (neither should many people from what I see) but can go home, hop on my 750cc sports bike and drive where I like.

    My defence if caught and convicted (not that our unpredictable judiciary will care) will be that I hold a full Irish driving licence for a vehicle more powerful than my car and I count myself as a qualified driver. If I am caught it will be at a static checkpoint and not for acting the b*ll*c*s or dangerous driving.

    My nearest bus stop which is serviced once a day to my nearest town which is 10 miles away is three miles away and I need my car to get around. From being a lifelong biker I have a good knowledge of mechanics and can do a lot of work on my car myself. I know it inside out and can spot a fault almost before it develops, several friends of mine would look in the boot of a Golf for the engine if asked.

    I think that mandatory driving craft should be taught in schools, and safe driving culture fostered from an early age instead of thrusting a dangerous weapon into the hands of young inexperienced people when they reach 17, but would an Irish government dare do such a sensible thing?

    No, there is more money to be had from fining people and using our overstretched Gardai and courts to enforce reactionary laws than actually dealing with the real issue which is really about attitude change and education before somebody takes to the road. An Irish solution again.

    Am I a danger to society? From what I see on the roads from "qualified" drivers - I think not. But for now I will be a criminal in the eyes of the law and the self righteous. :eek:


  • #10
    Tordelback
    Registered Users Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Tordelback


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I'm going to assume you didn't actually drive away unaccompanied...

    Of course I did, which was the ridiculous part - and for a year before and 6 months after that. I drove with a licensed driver for the first few months of owning a car, which was a total pain in the arse to arrange (I had to basically kidnap workmates and force them to accept lifts to and from work), then realised that nobody was even looking as long as my car was taxed and insured. Even when I was stopped at checkpoints, no-one even asked to see my non-existant license - even in Northern Ireland. It wouldn't be too much for Gardaí to ask to see a licence every now an then - the only time I've been asked for my licence in 12 years of driving is when I was checkpointed while driving a work vehicle that (I was unaware) was out of tax.

    Nobody should be allowed drive a car on the roads at all without passing some kind of practical test. As there seems to be no will to try this approach, a requirement to be accompanied seems like the only cost-free way of putting some tiny vestige of control into the equation.


  • #11
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,468 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    epiphone wrote: »
    I'm just wondering are there many people driving unaccompanied on a learner Permit?

    My son just failed his test and I feel he is a competent driver. I have never allowed him out unaccompanied but from what I can see a lot of young drivers are driving unaccompanied. I feel I should allow him drive locally now on his own. He is 18.

    Good for you, but you are not qualified to make that assumption and thats why we have a test in the first place. He may be perfectly able to drive well but if he is not passing test then there could be a serious deficiency in part of his driving, anything from observation to clutch control which could lead to an accident.

    It only takes about 6 weeks to get a test these days, not exactly a huge wait to do it again, why take the risk in the meantime.
    Humans eh! wrote: »
    I count myself as a qualified driver.
    I count myself as the greatest driver in the universe, but that doesn't really matter to anyone else unless I have proof of it ;) :pac:


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  • #12
    Humans eh!
    Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭Humans eh!


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »

    I count myself as the greatest driver in the universe, but that doesn't really matter to anyone else unless I have proof of it ;) :pac:

    I have a pink licence (my second) that proves that I can negotiate a vehicle safely on Irish roads, its just for a faster more powerful vehicle. :o

    I think you are a great driver too...;)

    Seriously, I would take my test in the morning if I had the money to spare, I had hoped to take it before Christmas. The saving on my insurance would pay for almost seven tests but I just don't have the cash to spare at the moment as I am snowed under with bills etc. I really fail to see how having an driver who has passed their test beside you can help in an emergency, having someone next to you screaming and defecating themselves while stamping on an invisible brake pedal as you career over a cliff/ into a group of pedestrians cannot be helpful.
    Distracting if anything ;)


  • #13
    ztoical
    Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    Humans eh! wrote: »
    Do you think having a 17 year old who passed their test last week beside me will help me improve? or make me safer?

    No they wouldn't but they legally couldn't be the accompanying driver as they must have held their full licence for two years in order to full that role.


  • #14
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Humans eh! wrote: »
    I currently cannot afford to pay to take my test as every penny counts and I cannot spare the seventy five quid at this moment.
    My insurance on a 1.4 -99 golf is 1450 euro which is a lot to me. I ensure my vehicle is taxed and insured at all times.
    You can afford insurance on a provisional and tax and petrol but you can't afford a test fee?
    Do you think having a 17 year old who passed their test last week beside me will help me improve? or make me safer?
    No, but an accompanying driver must have held their licence for 2 years so that's irrelevant
    I count myself as a qualified driver.
    Nobody cares what you call yourself, either you have a licence or you don't.
    I wouldn't let any person off the street do an operation with no licence because they "count themselves" as qualified


    Tordelback wrote: »
    Of course I did, which was the ridiculous part - and for a year before and 6 months after that.
    What do you mean of course you did? Were you on a second provisional before the rule was revoked? Because otherwise you were breaking the law and there's no "of course" about it :confused:


  • #15
    Humans eh!
    Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭Humans eh!


    ztoical wrote: »
    No they wouldn't but they legally couldn't be the accompanying driver as they must have held their full licence for two years in order to full that role.

    Fair enough.
    Do you think having a 17 19 year old who passed their test last week 2 years ago beside me will help me improve? or make me safer?

    Or an older driver who received their licence in "the amnesty" in October 1979?


  • #16
    Humans eh!
    Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭Humans eh!


    bluewolf wrote: »
    You can afford insurance on a provisional and tax and petrol but you can't afford a test fee?

    Funny how people latch onto certain points that have nothing to do with the topic. Why would I say it if there wasn't a reason??

    Bought in full, insured and taxed car last May.smile.gif
    Insurance and tax lasts for a whole year. cool.gif
    Had money then, no money now. frown.gif
    Financial circumstances changed. Shock Horror! eek.gif

    Please feel free to pay for my test if it is such a paltry amount. I will pay you back out of my insurance saving in May.
    Honest ! rolleyes.gif


  • #17
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Humans eh! wrote: »
    Funny how people latch onto certain points that have nothing to do with the topic. Why would I say it if there wasn't a reason??

    Bought in full, insured and taxed car last May.smile.gif
    Insurance and tax lasts for a whole year. cool.gif
    Had money then, no money now. frown.gif
    Financial circumstances changed. Shock Horror! eek.gif


    And how much is your petrol?
    Please feel free to pay for my test if it is such a paltry amount. I will pay you back out of my insurance saving in May.
    Honest !
    You're the one trying to justify breaking the law, not me. No skin off my back.

    Rolleyes to you too.


  • #18
    Humans eh!
    Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭Humans eh!


    bluewolf wrote: »
    And how much is your petrol?

    €1.44 per litre
    And yours?


  • #19
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Humans eh! wrote: »
    €1.44 per litre
    And yours?

    I'm not the one saying I can't pay for an exam fee.
    What's stopping you taking the bike for a few weeks to save up like you did before?

    Anyway this is off topic from OP.


  • #20
    **Timbuk2**
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 7,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭**Timbuk2**


    I mentioned this in the other thread, but if you can't pass a test that involves only 30 minutes driving, mainly in 50km/h zones, without making 8 or less serious errors, then how can you possibly deem yourself good enough to drive by yourself? As for those that drive unaccompanied away from a test they've just failed - you are a danger to other people on the roads.

    I'm 18 like your son, OP, and also like your son, I failed my first test - lack of progress turning right mainly. But I still never drove unaccompanied. It's a pain to find somebody, but it's life. Bank opening hours are a pain, but I don't break in at 8am in the morning because it suits me - I try and make time so I can get there when it's open.


  • #21
    Humans eh!
    Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭Humans eh!


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I'm not the one saying I can't pay for an exam fee.
    What's stopping you taking the bike for a few weeks to save up like you did before?

    Anyway this is off topic from OP.

    With all due respect, you are the one who questioned and seem interested purely in my finances in the first place. I posted to the thread as I do drive unaccompanied as the OP. asked, you however just came along to seem incredulous that I don't have €75 or thereabouts to spare at the moment.

    Bike insurance lapsed in January.
    What next, why don't I sell the bike? etc etc .... ad infinitum

    'Gets keys and drives off........Unaccompanied. :pac: '
    - Get a swat team here now, and take out that lawbreaker! -


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  • #22
    Tordelback
    Registered Users Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Tordelback


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Were you on a second provisional before the rule was revoked? Because otherwise you were breaking the law and there's no "of course" about it :confused:

    I was indeed on my 2nd Provisional (this was 1999), but so what? Someone had just judged me dangerously unfit to drive a car on the public road, patted me on my back and sent me on my way. Is that a sane way to do things?

    Until someone has been assessed as safe to drive by someone other than their immediate family, they shouldn't be let out in a car on their own.


  • #23
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Tordelback wrote: »
    I was indeed on my 2nd Provisional (this was 1999), but so what? Someone had just judged me dangerously unfit to drive a car on the public road, patted me on my back and sent me on my way. Is that a sane way to do things?
    No, which is why they changed the law in the last year, can't do it anymore :)
    Until someone has been assessed as safe to drive by someone other than their immediate family, they shouldn't be let out in a car on their own.
    Exactly, which is why the rules say so


  • #24
    Tordelback
    Registered Users Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Tordelback


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Exactly, which is why the rules say so

    Yes, but I was trying to address the OP's question - should he let his son do it? The question of legality is a big issue, but one which the OP presumably understands, and as noted I've only had to present my licence once in a dozen years of driving, so I don't think detection of this crime is a big risk. The bigger issue is surely the practical potentially life-threatening aspect of letting your son drive unsupervised when an instructor has judged that he shouldn't.


  • #25
    Mycroft H
    Registered Users Posts: 9,316 ✭✭✭Mycroft H


    I wouldnt encourage it, but I personally know people who are driving on their learner permit unaccompanied.

    You won't get stopped for it, as long as your NCT, Tax and Insurance is in order and don't act stupid on the road.

    Go tell your test to redo his test test asap, cancellations come up all the time, its worth it for the reduction in insurance alone


  • #26
    ztoical
    Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    Humans eh! wrote: »
    Fair enough.
    Do you think having a 17 19 year old who passed their test last week 2 years ago beside me will help me improve? or make me safer?

    Given that I haven't seen you drive I can't comment on how much or little an accompanying driver would help you improve your skills as a driver. I would guess not much as it seems likely you wouldn't listen to them if they did try to offer any advice.


  • #27
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    OP...having failed to meet the required standard, what if he kills or injures someone? I hope your conscience could live with it.


  • #28
    epiphone
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭epiphone


    Thanks for your replies. I understand the legality of allowing him to drive.

    I was at the driving test centre with him. He was the only person waiting for his test who was accompanied. I saw the other drivers arrive unaccompanied and I saw a girl drive home unaccompanied crying (presumably she failed.)

    So I was curious to know if everybody is driving unaccompanied or not. He has never driven unaccompanied. I was considering letting him drive locally to get experience before the test again. They should either enforce the law of forget about it.

    It would be better if the learner had to produce proof of completion of 10 to 20 driving lessons instead.


  • #29
    ztoical
    Registered Users Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    epiphone wrote: »
    It would be better if the learner had to produce proof of completion of 10 to 20 driving lessons instead.

    compulsory lessons are coming in for anyone getting a permit from April. It will not replace the accompanied driver but the role of the accompanied driver is to be enforced with a signed log book to be presesnt before the driving test. From september they are also bringing in R plates.


  • #30
    **Timbuk2**
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 7,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭**Timbuk2**


    epiphone wrote: »
    So I was curious to know if everybody is driving unaccompanied or not. He has never driven unaccompanied. I was considering letting him drive locally to get experience before the test again. They should either enforce the law of forget about it.

    Why locally? He may know the roads better, but that doesn't make the hazards any less real. Actually, he has more of a chance of killing / injuring / being involved in a crash with, somebody that he knows.

    You are his father. I assume that you have held a full B licence for more than 2 years? Go out driving with him more. I'm sure it's not the funnest job in the world - I literally had to drag my parents out at times. My mother couldn't spare a lot of time (she's extremely busy all the time due to various reasons) so I became the chauffeur when she drove into town to do the shopping - times she'd be driving anyway. It sounds odd, but I found odd, short, frequent journies around turn much more beneficial than a moderate length drive on main roads - you learn a lot of control of the car in traffic, hazards are much more frequent, it's the setting that you will be tested in, you get a good sense of when to take gaps and when not to, etc.

    It really baffles me how a parent could sit back and knowingly let their child drive alone, knowing they haven't been driving long enough to develop much hazard-aversion skills, further confirmed by the fact that he didn't pass his driving test.


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  • #31
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,980 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Humans eh! wrote: »
    With all due respect, you are the one who questioned and seem interested purely in my finances in the first place. I posted to the thread as I do drive unaccompanied as the OP. asked, you however just came along to seem incredulous that I don't have €75 or thereabouts to spare at the moment.

    Bike insurance lapsed in January.
    What next, why don't I sell the bike? etc etc .... ad infinitum

    'Gets keys and drives off........Unaccompanied. :pac: '
    - Get a swat team here now, and take out that lawbreaker! -

    With all due respect, if you had bothered to do your test at any stage over the last year you would have saved the 75 Euro immediately upon informing your insurance company that you now hold a full license. By your logic you should be entitled to hop in a 8 axle truck just because you hold a A license.

    At the OP. That fact he failed but in your eyes is competent might mean many things. The test sheet should give you a good idea of how he failed. Considering the test can be had in a week or two through cancellations, if he wants it that badly he can calm his nerves and pass the next test.


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