3,000-year-old road being destroyed

Qualitymark · 05-09-2015 9:33am

@Del.Monte Would you be able to formulate an outline policy (short, direct, simple) and submit it as an article to the newspapers and online sources - suggesting specific transport heritage that urgently and immediately needs preservation, and which deserves to be shown to Irish people and tourists as part of our national treasure? Just a suggestion.

Del.Monte · 05-09-2015 12:58pm

Qualitymark wrote: »

@Del.Monte Would you be able to formulate an outline policy (short, direct, simple) and submit it as an article to the newspapers and online sources - suggesting specific transport heritage that urgently and immediately needs preservation, and which deserves to be shown to Irish people and tourists as part of our national treasure? Just a suggestion.

I could/have many times but it's completely pointless.
http://irishrailways.blogspot.ie/2015/09/the-need-for-national-transport-museum.html

or this article written by somebody in 1948!!!!

“A Transport Museum?”

by Gerard St.John

(First published in the May 1948 edition of Cuisle na Tíre – CIE’s staff magazine)

The article which appeared in the March 1948 issue of Cuisle, about the antique loco No.36, illustrated yet again the desirability of establishing a Transport Museum. Far too many links with the romantic past have been lost already, and I sincerely hope that steps will be taken before some foreign society jumps at the offer to give this one away free!
Admittedly, there is no room at the National Museum, but surely it should be possible to rig up a comparatively inexpensive structure in say, the Phoenix Park. Once installed, the vehicles would require little care and the crudest of accommodation would be sufficient until we have enough pride to finance an adequate building.
The ever dwindling number of relics available still warrants the effort and I am confident that apart from those, of which I know, there are many others rusting in farmyards or cob-webbed sheds.
Only a few weeks ago I heard that a garden shelter in Lancashire was discovered to be the prison van attacked by a party of Fenians in Manchester in 1867. The lock and door carry marks of the shot which accidentally killed the police sergeant and led to the unjust hanging of Allen, Larkin and O’Brien. A former Lord Mayor of Manchester has offered to have the van sent to Ireland.

It should be possible with existing material to arrange a display dating from pre-historic times, starting with primitive dug-out canoes found in the bogs throughout the country. From descriptions in ancient manuscripts the first clumsy carts could be imitated and then the magnificent chariots of the tribal kings. Dummy horses could be fitted with the trappings of each period.
Of Sedan Chairs we have at least one specimen in Kildare Street. The Dublin coach-makers achieved a world-wide renown for their workmanship and artistic skill. An unbelievably graceful specimen of their craft is one of the proudest possessions of the British Royal Family and was used at a recent wedding. There must be others which could be preserved in our own country. The same skill was applied to the early “horseless carriages” or motor cars and, judging from Old Crock Rallies, there are quite a few lurking in private garages.
Perhaps it might still be possible to acquire a horse tram and the more interesting of the steam and electric types. CIE may have a host of historic treasures scattered in various disused sheds and sidings! I would dearly love to see one of the twin-boilered engines constructed for the Listowel-Ballybunion Railway.

Losses through the culpable neglect of former years could be remedied by the construction of small models, following the praiseworthy example of the British Museum. I can think of no group in the world more competent for this work than the Dublin Society of Model & Experimental Engineers, now in its forty-sixth year. Indeed, we could also feature examples of the inventions made by men of Irish parentage, e.g., the submarine and the steam-boat.
At Inchicore they may be some remnants of the armoured train used by the British against the Volunteers in Wexford in 1916. It comprised three shell trucks and an engine protected with iron plates painted a slate grey colour.
During the War of Independence the “Green Lizzie” became famous as a will-o-the-wisp weapon of the Dublin Battalion. Apparently an ordinary Ford van, its interior was lined with captured British body armour. Cruising innocently through the city streets it would arrive at the point chosen for an ambush, the doors swinging open to reveal a party of men armed with a Thompson gun and automatics.

There is much of historic interest which might yet be rescued from irretrievable loss and at the very least a store shed, however simple, should be constructed. The collection would be of incalculable value, sentimental and educational to coming generations, not to mention our own!

I have but skimmed the subject – so anxious am I to register an appeal for poor old weather-beaten No.36. Every possible relic must be preserved in our own country. National honour demands it. Posterity will be justifiably bitter if we fail in our duty.

DanielODonnell · 05-09-2015 2:11pm

Westmeath was quite an important region because of the Southern Ui Neill, it is just because it is wee in GAA terms that it is viewed as inferior in modern Ireland, Louth would also be an important area in regards to mythology.

dubhthach · 06-09-2015 12:10pm

Westmeath was the original Miḋe (Meath), them lads in (East)Meath were actually the sub-kingdom of Brega within the province of Miḋe

StonyIron · 06-09-2015 9:58pm

I'm a bit "iffy" about the whole concept of Bord an Mona and industrial scale peat extraction.

Just seems odd they're odd prosecuting local small scale stuff while a state body is out scooping vast swathes of unique Irish landscape and burning it in power plants to produce a pittance worth of power compared to other sources that don't involve wetlands and bogs.

It seems extremely environmentally destructive for what is a very cumbersome and low energy fuel and relatively low value garden products that are easily replaced with normal compost from more sustainable sources.

When you see the scared landscapes where they've completed peat extraction, it's just very sad looking.

Seems like a huge price for very little gain other than a few local votes probably.

Qualitymark · 06-09-2015 10:14pm

The 1948 article is a bit vague. It would be great to see a sedan chair on display (possibly with Barrington's joke about sedan chair men carrying all the gossip of Dublin). And have the 1916 and Manchester Martyrs and Green Lizzie been preserved? I know Collins' armoured car was recently unveiled as a museum piece:

http://www.msoi.eu/journal-archives/143-journal91/1218-restoredarmouredcarsliabhnambanunveiled

StonyIron · 06-09-2015 10:31pm

I'd actually like to see two industrial / tech museums in Cork

1. National Maritime Museum maybe on Haulbowline taking in the heritage of the navy, merchant shipping, ship building and modern shipping.

2. An Irish industry & science museum looking at the very extensive history of large scale manufacturing - textiles, food/drink/brewing and even cars and modern stuff.

Take in all the science that went in here over the centuries and also take in maybe a modern element of what's happening now.

Something like that could easily include a transport section.

I'd pick Cork simply because it's a major maritime centre, has a big history of industrial manufacturing and it has some decent potential for developing a big venue - the old Marina Power plant for example ?

A national aviation museum would be cool too. Maybe at Shannon Airport ?

I just think we've a very narrow view of "heritage" sometimes.

Things like these bog roads are quite likely evidence of much earlier industrial organisation than we sometimes give ourselves credit for.

Lord Riverside · 13-09-2015 11:21am

Qualitymark wrote: »

If you'd like to look at it purely in financial terms, a 3,000-year-old road has almost magical significance for US and other tourists; it could be a major income provider for a poor county, properly managed and marketed.

Look at Kilmainham Gaol. The government of the time when it was brought back into use for tourism were adamantly against the project, which was completed by volunteers. Now it's one of the country's main tourist sites; it would be in first place except that the current government won't allow more guides to be hired and more tourists to be admitted, and in fact wishes to dispense with the learned and expert guides and replace them with earphones droning the preferred PC version of the story.

Kilmainham Gaol is a fantastic historical learning experience for all family.
I was greatly surprised and impressed on a recent visit.
Why am I not surprised successive Irish governments want to suppress and wreck it, probably for that very reason.

Lord Riverside · 13-09-2015 11:24am

Del.Monte wrote: »

This thread is in danger of descending into the usual 'An Taisce should be wound up' nonsense.

Good point.

I wonder in who's interest does trying to slander and get An Taisce closed serve best?

StonyIron · 13-09-2015 12:55pm

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Good point.

I wonder in who's interest does trying to slander and get An Taisce closed serve best?

The usual suspects:

Unfortunately, because there's no good track record of protecting heritage here An Tasice is probably more confrontational than would be necessary in many other EU countries.

We've a history of not appreciating what we've got at official level. The insane Wood Quay incident to build Dublin City Council's "beautiful" blocks on the quays is a prime example of how much of a problem we have.

I mean for example, DCC could have found umpteen 1980s brownfield site.

As annoying as An Taisce might be, it's a bit like a nagging national heritage conscience.

Sometimes having a bid of intellectual conflict on this is not necessarily a bad thing.

whisky_galore · 13-09-2015 2:46pm

StonyIron wrote: »

I'm a bit "iffy" about the whole concept of Bord an Mona and industrial scale peat extraction.

Just seems odd they're odd prosecuting local small scale stuff while a state body is out scooping vast swathes of unique Irish landscape and burning it in power plants to produce a pittance worth of power compared to other sources that don't involve wetlands and bogs.

It seems extremely environmentally destructive for what is a very cumbersome and low energy fuel and relatively low value garden products that are easily replaced with normal compost from more sustainable sources.

When you see the scared landscapes where they've completed peat extraction, it's just very sad looking.

Seems like a huge price for very little gain other than a few local votes probably.

You answered your own question, because a semi-State body does all the damage and because jobs and because those workers and those in the locality vote it's all ok.
Other than maybe biomass, I don't see any other alterative fuel sources to be extracted here.

tac foley · 13-09-2015 4:41pm

StonyIron wrote: »

Things like these bog roads are quite likely evidence of much earlier industrial organisation than we sometimes give ourselves credit for.

I don't believe that the roads had anything to do with any kind of industry - a precept that was unknown in Ireland [and the rest of the British Isles], until the later part of the 18th Century and the industrial revolution.

They were, however, undoubtedly a means of communication between communities and possibly centres of religious significance to the inhabitants at at time.

tac

galwaycyclist · 17-09-2015 6:23pm

StonyIron wrote: »

The usual suspects:

Unfortunately, because there's no good track record of protecting heritage here An Tasice is probably more confrontational than would be necessary in many other EU countries.

We've a history of not appreciating what we've got at official level. The insane Wood Quay incident to build Dublin City Council's "beautiful" blocks on the quays is a prime example of how much of a problem we have.

I mean for example, DCC could have found umpteen 1980s brownfield site.

As annoying as An Taisce might be, it's a bit like a nagging national heritage conscience.

Sometimes having a bid of intellectual conflict on this is not necessarily a bad thing.

I am not a member of An Taisce but quite often their submissions are based on asking state agencies to uphold state policies - why we should rely on unpaid volunteers up and down the country to do this escapes me.

StonyIron · 17-09-2015 6:39pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

I am not a member of An Taisce but quite often their submissions are based on asking state agencies to uphold state policies - why we should rely on unpaid volunteers up and down the country to do this escapes me.

I suppose because otherwise the state would be building Wood Quays and paving the bogs for car parking.

MadsL · 28-09-2015 7:41pm

Greenmachine wrote: »

If it is worth saving, and "An Taisce" Want to save what is the point of "An Taisce".

Barely There wrote: »

If An Taisce had their way we'd all be still living in caves.

Professional objectors to pretty much every piece of major infrastructure in the country over the last couple of decades.

They have zero credibility.

http://www.thejournal.ie/an-taisce-says-it-saved-state-from-e752m-in-impaired-loans-419128-Apr2012/

752 million reasons to keep An Taisce.

end of the road · 05-10-2015 5:14pm

Barely There wrote: »

If An Taisce had their way we'd all be still living in caves.

absolute bull

Barely There wrote: »

Professional objectors to pretty much every piece of major infrastructure in the country over the last couple of decades.

good. they want to insure any infrastructure is built within the rules and that anything of hystorical and environmental signifficance is included and taken into account. long may they continue faults and all

Barely There wrote: »

They have zero credibility.

they have 100% credibility. one seeing the cost of everything and the value of nothing doesn't change that fact.

whisky_galore · 06-10-2015 8:31am

end of the road wrote: »

good. they want to insure any infrastructure is built within the rules and that anything of hystorical and environmental signifficance is included and taken into account. long may they continue faults and all

If it wasn't for them, gombeen developers would happily flatten everything and anything of historical significance to create 1000's of shoddily built architectural carbuncles. The only problem is they didn't object to more developments.

Qualitymark · 07-10-2015 9:04am

Book on Ireland's industrial heritage http://irisharchaeology.ie/2015/09/industrial-ireland-an-archaeology-1750-1930/

3,000-year-old road being destroyed

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