Attack on female Garda in Dublin

23-06-2009 8:28am

Zambia232 wrote: »

Because if you are in uniform and you try an restrain someone there is no end of running commentry.

"He cant breathe" - Newsflash if they can scream abuse at me they can breathe
"Youse are hurting him" - really ... Jesus lads the massage career is ruined
"Look at youse it take three of you" - If we had another 3 there would be 6 of us this is not a boxing ring
"Youse are breaking his arm, youse bleedin scumbags" - Sorry doctor didnt recognise you in civvies..

You know what, I actually heard all four of those at the weekend.

Trojan911 · 23-06-2009 9:10am

civildefence wrote: »

Do you REALLY think thats why they were filming it?

Can you say otherwise? Can you categorically say nobody offered up a statement after?

Terrontress · 23-06-2009 11:03am

foreign wrote: »

You know what, I actually heard all four of those at the weekend.

I once saw the PSNI try to restrain someone. There were about 4 or 5 PSNI with one holding each of the guys hands to stop him writhing. There was a third guy standing in front of him saying "You're going to have to calm down. Come on now, just calm down." The restrained lad was trying to break free and a crowd had built up. The two police doing nothing but hold on to him.

There were two older women saying to each other "look at that, those peelers are a disgrace, look at what they're doing to that poor fella".

I thought the Police were showing tremendous restraint, regardless of what he had done. But I suppose it comes back to training.

civdef · 23-06-2009 11:17am

Once upon a time, I was thought that if strikes are needed, it's far better for an officer to hit someone really hard once, rather than escalating the force used in successive blows, because that can look like a Rodney King effort to bystanders.

Morlar · 23-06-2009 11:30am

Terrontress wrote: »

, there was obviously quick back-up, given that the injuries were relatively minor and three people were arrested. Maybe that is why nobody stepped in.

I would say not quick enough and things can almost always be worse - this fact doesnt mean that assistance was 'obviously quick'.

Had someone stepped in (regardless of how close the 'obviously quick back-up' was) it could have reduced the level of injuries that the female garda suffered. It is possible that people thought that backup would arrive soon & this could have been a factor.

Terrontress wrote: »

Maybe people watching didn't fancy getting their faces bitten either.

No one (garda or not) would like to have their 'faces bitten'.

The question is not 'were there possible dangers with intervening' but why did no one intervene ?

Of course there are potential & serious dangers in intervening.

Terrontress wrote: »

Maybe if they had got injured like the cop their employer would not be so sympathetic with sick leave like the State is to Gardai.

I think there are statutory sick leave entitlements - but again this would come under the point above about potential dangers.

No one is doubting there are potential dangers to a person who intervenes in a situation like that to assist a Gardai. There are serious dangers of being attacked with an infected syringe, stabbed etc etc. No one is arguing that there are no potential dangers and therefore people should have automatically stepped in.

Terrontress wrote: »

Maybe they thought they could be liable to prosecution if they used force on the criminals and didn't know the extent to which they could use force.

This is possibly a factor. My own opinion would be leaning more in the direction of the crowd being made up of say for example ; tourists who are not going to intervene. People in families who would not intervene. People in shock who were too stunned to react. People who are afraid that this can happen in broad daylight to a Gardai. People who were cheering the scumbags on. People who didn't decide quickly enough and people who were more afraid for themselves than they were concerned for the garda. I still find it hard to believe & dissappointing that nobody did anything regardless of all of the above (including the potential dangers). Possibly another factor is that one of the attackers was female and most men would be reluctant to physically get involved there. If the other 2 were male then its a bit harder to understand.

Zambia · 23-06-2009 1:36pm

foreign wrote: »

You know what, I actually heard all four of those at the weekend.

Your public f**king loves you...

itsallaboutme!! · 23-06-2009 2:23pm

Terrontress wrote: »

First of all, I did not mention anything about it being someone I know. I am sure nobody at the scene knew the Garda in question personally.

As for what I'd be prepared to do, I have given three situations above where I think it best to await people with expert training and could think of dozens more. History is littered with people who have endangered themselves and others or have made the situation worse by blundering cack-handed into a situation that they are not qualified to.

Given your responses so far, I hope you never, ever come upon anyone in trouble.

first of all i know you didn't mention anything about there being anybody that personally knew the girl being attacked my question was to you. what would YOU do if someone YOU did KNOW was being attacked and you were there? would you stand back and wait on "the Professionals" or try help out(me thinks the latter!)

second of all i AM one of those TRAINED PROFESSIONALS you talk about and id say you would be the very one who stands by and watches when i am the one who would try to help someone out regardless of whether i am on or off duty. as regards the TRAINING i have received trust me when i say i will not be using any of the wrist holds etc that someone above has already mentioned.

given your attitude i would hope that YOU never ever happen upon someone in trouble.

Terrontress · 23-06-2009 3:59pm

itsallaboutme!! wrote: »

first of all i know you didn't mention anything about there being anybody that personally knew the girl being attacked my question was to you. what would YOU do if someone YOU did KNOW was being attacked and you were there? would you stand back and wait on "the Professionals" or try help out(me thinks the latter!)

second of all i AM one of those TRAINED PROFESSIONALS you talk about and id say you would be the very one who stands by and watches when i am the one who would try to help someone out regardless of whether i am on or off duty. as regards the TRAINING i have received trust me when i say i will not be using any of the wrist holds etc that someone above has already mentioned.

given your attitude i would hope that YOU never ever happen upon someone in trouble.

Of course I'd react differently if someone I knew was in danger compared to someone I don't know. I think that's human nature.

But you are talking about a very emotional situation. I think my heart would rule my head but it might not be the right thing to do.

I find it amazing that people on here who claim to be members are encouraging people to take the law into their own hands and intervene in trouble when a highly trained professional is unable to control a situation.

luckat · 23-06-2009 4:03pm

Haven't read all the replies, so forgive me if someone's already pointed this out: it's possible that people were recording a) because people sometimes moderate their behaviour if they realise they're being recorded by a witness, and b) because it will later be used as evidence in court.

That given, it's a pity - a disgrace - that no one intervened. They didn't have to get rough, all they had to do was protect the person being attacked and try to calm down the person attacking.

itsallaboutme!! · 23-06-2009 4:27pm

Terrontress wrote: »

Of course I'd react differently if someone I knew was in danger compared to someone I don't know. I think that's human nature.

But you are talking about a very emotional situation. I think my heart would rule my head but it might not be the right thing to do.

I find it amazing that people on here who claim to be members are encouraging people to take the law into their own hands and intervene in trouble when a highly trained professional is unable to control a situation.

Highly trained professional or not fact of the matter is that girl was overpowered by three scum and nobody did a thing about it. Are you honestly saying that if you were overpowered by someone and a crowd gathered you would not want someone to help you out?you would prefer to continue being assaulted or whatever the case may be,and wait for gardai, ambulance ,coast guard etc?

Im not saying people should take the law into their own hands but in my opinion its ordinary decency and not against the law to help someone helping does not mean running in like a lunatic and swinging digs left right and centre.Go over and let a roar at them to give it up, tell them the gardai are on the way anything is better than standing by and watching.If someone needs help to at least try to help and not just stand there and hope someone else will.

I do not CLAIM to be anything all I said was I am a trained professional I did not say I was in any way attached to AGS.

Odysseus · 23-06-2009 5:00pm

Just my own opinion on those raised where, I think the attack on the Garda was appalling, but even more so the lack of people who failed to intervene. I can understand the reasons, but that doesn't cut it with me.

However, if I stood by and watched something like that I would find it difficult to sleep at night, and it take alot for that to happen.

I'm not a Garda, but I would with some very dangerous in a therapeutic environment, I also do some psychlogical work with staff who are assualted with their working enviorment, a minor qualification I have in this area is around critical incedents. My point in stating this is the people in other profession get attacked to, however, nobody whatever their profession gets paid to take a hiding. One of my own team members was assualted a few weeks ago.

To me it doesn't really matter that she was a Garda [no disrspect meant], to stand by and allow this to happen just wrong, again even the fact that she is female doesn't come into to.

People are talking about training, for me it would even come into the fact is people did not intervene, I am quite experience in Martial Arts, but that still means nothing to me, I have been trained by a lot of military and some cops from the states. However, that doesn't mean that I'm suoer-man, I don't know I could have been dropped with 10 secs, but I know that, if I had intervened; however, If I was still alive that night I would believe I had done the right thing, and believe me I'm not macho man. However, I do people that everyone shouls have some self defense skills as well as a good standard of first-aid.

It an unfortunate situation, but curently we have this culture of not getting involved, every looking out for themsleves, however, I wonder what it would be like for thos who stood around and watch, it they were in the same position.

That's me I hope it makes some sense.

itsallaboutme!! · 23-06-2009 5:06pm

+1 from me. it does not mater how well trained you are it is still possible to be overpowered be you male female garda or not. To me to stand by and watch and do nothing to try and help is almost as bad as being the attacker. i would not be able to live with that on my conscience.

TheNog · 23-06-2009 5:47pm

itsallaboutme!! wrote: »

given your attitude i would hope that YOU never ever happen upon someone in trouble.

Take a deep breath and calm down. This is a discussion so differing points of view will come up and remember "attack the post, not the poster".

Terrontress wrote: »

I find it amazing that people on here who claim to be members are encouraging people to take the law into their own hands and intervene in trouble when a highly trained professional is unable to control a situation.

No one here is talking about taking the law into their own hands. We have a zero tolerance policy for obvious reasons.

We are simply saying that someone could have intervened by whatever means possible without breaking any law.

Terrontress · 23-06-2009 5:47pm

itsallaboutme!! wrote: »

+1 from me. it does not mater how well trained you are it is still possible to be overpowered be you male female garda or not. To me to stand by and watch and do nothing to try and help is almost as bad as being the attacker. i would not be able to live with that on my conscience.

Well next time you come upon such a situation, you pile on in.

Zambia · 23-06-2009 6:08pm

Ah now hold on doing nothing is no way in the same league as performing the assault. :eek: . Some people would actually be very frightened at the sight of a Garda being overpowered as that is a huge shock to the order of normal society.

But in a crowd of that many there should have been one person capable of helping.

Odysseus · 23-06-2009 6:27pm

Zambia232 wrote: »

Ah now hold on doing nothing is no way in the same league as performing the assault. :eek: . Some people would actually be very frightened at the sight of a Garda being overpowered as that is a huge shock to the order of normal society.

But in a crowd of that many there should have been one person capable of helping.

Hi mate, I don't think anyone actually said they there are in they same league as the act of assualt, unless I missed I something. I think some people like myself disagree quite strongly with not intervening with the incident.

Zambia · 24-06-2009 4:12am

itsallaboutme!! wrote: »

+1 from me. it does not mater how well trained you are it is still possible to be overpowered be you male female garda or not. To me to stand by and watch and do nothing to try and help is almost as bad as being the attacker. i would not be able to live with that on my conscience.

It was close enough :rolleyes:

seamus · 24-06-2009 6:03am

Terrontress wrote: »

I find it amazing that people on here who claim to be members are encouraging people to take the law into their own hands and intervene in trouble when a highly trained professional is unable to control a situation.

Nobody would be taking the law into their own hands. You're entitled to use reasonable force to protect yourself or someone else, simple as.

Your attitude in relation to this probably illustrates perfectly why nobody intervened here. You're trying to paint intervening to be akin to picking up a high-vis jacket and jumping in when you notice a local county council worker didn't fill in a pothole properly.

A fellow human being is in danger and cannot escape. You should help them regardless of who they are. What's so difficult about that to understand?

Just run through 3 little questions in your head:
1. Is the person in control of the situation?
2. Are they (or someone else) in immediate danger?
3. Can you make a difference?

Now, I know your contention is really on question 3, but scumbags are effectively cheap-shot merchants, they usually have no interest in getting into a brawl, particularly one they can't win. All it would take is two guys to approch the incident and push them out of the way and they'd run. If you come upon such an incident, you find the biggest bystander (fat or muscular, doesn't matter), grab him by the arm, look him in the eye and say, "Give me a hand here".

itsallaboutme!! · 24-06-2009 6:32am

TheNog - apologies, I was just replying to the same comment i was given a few posts previously.

I was also just stating MY opinion on what I thought of the fact that nobody bothered to help that girl out. Obviously it is NOT the same as being the attacker,just the opinion I am entitled to.

I will of course not "pile on" as I am not a stupid individual however I will not stand by and watch and hope for somebody else to do something. As I have said helping does not mean going in like a lunatic and swinging digs.

Terrontress · 24-06-2009 6:33am

seamus wrote: »

Nobody would be taking the law into their own hands. You're entitled to use reasonable force to protect yourself or someone else, simple as.

Your attitude in relation to this probably illustrates perfectly why nobody intervened here. You're trying to paint intervening to be akin to picking up a high-vis jacket and jumping in when you notice a local county council worker didn't fill in a pothole properly.

A fellow human being is in danger and cannot escape. You should help them regardless of who they are. What's so difficult about that to understand?

Just run through 3 little questions in your head:
1. Is the person in control of the situation?
2. Are they (or someone else) in immediate danger?
3. Can you make a difference?

Now, I know your contention is really on question 3, but scumbags are effectively cheap-shot merchants, they usually have no interest in getting into a brawl, particularly one they can't win. All it would take is two guys to approch the incident and push them out of the way and they'd run. If you come upon such an incident, you find the biggest bystander (fat or muscular, doesn't matter), grab him by the arm, look him in the eye and say, "Give me a hand here".

Number 4 is whether you are going to make the situation worse by intervening.
Number 5: Will intervening impact negatively on you.

I am 6'2" and 17 stone. If someone asked me to intervene physically, I'd like to think I would have more sense.

Valmont · 24-06-2009 6:50am

nice guy always wrote: »

+1

My best wishes to the members recovery. Hope the youths get some long time inside.

I can't see that happening, not the way this country hands out sentences anyway.

Zambia · 24-06-2009 7:47am

Terrontress wrote: »

Number 4 is whether you are going to make the situation worse by intervening.

Lets assess there is a person on the ground being kicked, as the past has shown a kick to the head can be fatal google "kick head burlington hotel". Any intervention in this case could only have helped the person on the ground.

Terrontress wrote: »

Number 5: Will intervening impact negatively on you.

Quite possibly these are skangers they may have mates standing by ready to attack you. But that does not mean someone has no sense for trying to help out another person. As your below comment implies.

Terrontress wrote: »

I am 6'2" and 17 stone. If someone asked me to intervene physically, I'd like to think I would have more sense.

Zambia · 24-06-2009 7:50am

seamus wrote: »

If you come upon such an incident, you find the biggest bystander (fat or muscular, doesn't matter), grab him by the arm, look him in the eye and say, "Give me a hand here".

You bail in I'll clap

TheNog · 24-06-2009 10:04am

itsallaboutme!! wrote: »

TheNog - apologies, I was just replying to the same comment i was given a few posts previously.

I was also just stating MY opinion on what I thought of the fact that nobody bothered to help that girl out. Obviously it is NOT the same as being the attacker,just the opinion I am entitled to.

Your post started off well but then went downhill into could be taken as 'back-seat modding' so I will warn you this time seeing you are new here. This is the first and last time I will warn you on thread. I advise you to read the charter before continuing to post.

Also if you use caps for certain words like "MY" and "NOT" it is considering shouting or aggression. Neither of which is tolerated here.

Geri Boyle · 24-06-2009 10:12am

Anyone have an update on how the Garda in question is doing? I hope shes doing well and back on the beat and not intimidated from doing her job by a bunch of thugs and cowards. Best wishes to her and her family and thank God it wasnt more serious.

TheNog · 24-06-2009 10:36am

Gardaí in Dublin are appealing for witnesses to a serious assault which has left a young woman in a critical condition in hospital.

The woman was attacked near the entrance to the Rotunda Hospital on Parnell Square at around 2.15pm last Thursday afternoon.

Gardaí at Fitzgibbon Street station say they want to speak to anyone with information about the incident.

And once again but this woman is in critical condition

Source

bigass · 24-06-2009 4:25pm

Terrontress wrote: »

Of course I'd react differently if someone I knew was in danger compared to someone I don't know. I think that's human nature.

But you are talking about a very emotional situation. I think my heart would rule my head but it might not be the right thing to do.

I find it amazing that people on here who claim to be members are encouraging people to take the law into their own hands and intervene in trouble when a highly trained professional is unable to control a situation.

No one "claiming" to be a member is encouraging people to take the law into there own hands and as for a "trained professional unable to control the situation", I dont think there is any such training for biting.
Also considering the amount of people that attacked her.
The point well I'm making is I couldnt watch and walk away.

As we aware you are entitled to protect yourself and that of a person with out breaking the law