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Schools called to accommodate Isalamic beliefs

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 186 ✭✭mphalo1


    coolbeans wrote:
    That's not an argument. Who are they and us anyway? Think about what you're saying before you type and throw in a bit of punctuation while you're at it. It shows that you've actually considered what you've said.


    they are Islam yes the ones that behead Christen children think of every other religion as infidels an are moving into other country's and demanding we ( the native Irish chatolics) change the way we run our schools to suit them( Muslims ) you want to live in Ireland and call yourself Irish but yet you are far from it, you want to live in our land (,our land = rep of ireland which our grandfathers fought for ) not for people of foreign lands ( middle east) but for us the true Irishmen and women catholic to be precise so stop trying to push your ways of living on our land it doesn't go down to well if history is anything to go by


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,676 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    mphalo1 wrote: »
    they are Islam yes the ones that behead Christen children think of every other religion as infidels an are moving into other country's and demanding we ( the native Irish chatolics) change the way we run our schools to suit them( Muslims ) you want to live in Ireland and call yourself Irish but yet you are far from it, you want to live in our land (,our land = rep of ireland which our grandfathers fought for ) not for people of foreign lands ( middle east) but for us the true Irishmen and women catholic to be precise so stop trying to push your ways of living on our land it doesn't go down to well if history is anything to go by

    Ah here, catholicism is only a recent branch of christianity, which in itself is not a true Irish religion in any form. If you want to play that game, then it's no more "Irish" than Islam or Flying Spaghetti Monster-ism. christianity is about 1500 years in Ireland, pre-christian native Irish religions extend for over 7000 years before that. So thanks, but we've had enough of being pushed around and dictated to by foreign religions.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    mphalo1 wrote: »
    they are Islam yes the ones that behead Christen children...

    ...our land = rep of ireland which our grandfathers fought for ... not for people of foreign lands ( middle east) but for us the true Irishmen and women catholic to be precise so stop trying to push your ways of living on our land it doesn't go down to well if history is anything to go by
    They are Islam?
    old_aussie wrote: »
    Next they'll say that all kids must stop eating when it ramadam as it offends the muslim kids
    Ya think?


    Both of you need to consider my earlier warning before posting here again.
    Dades wrote: »
    It's not okay to respond with silly hyperbole and xenophobia.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,035 ✭✭✭coolbeans


    mphalo1 wrote: »
    they are Islam yes the ones that behead Christen children think of every other religion as infidels an are moving into other country's and demanding we ( the native Irish chatolics) change the way we run our schools to suit them( Muslims ) you want to live in Ireland and call yourself Irish but yet you are far from it, you want to live in our land (,our land = rep of ireland which our grandfathers fought for ) not for people of foreign lands ( middle east) but for us the true Irishmen and women catholic to be precise so stop trying to push your ways of living on our land it doesn't go down to well if history is anything to go by

    Such nonsense I don't know where to begin. What if I'm protestant, do I not fit into your theocratic ideal of the Catholic Irish state? What about the Muslim girl at my workplace who works well and gets on with everyone? Should I fear her because according to you they all want to behead us.
    What about those of us who've had it with all religion in the public realm? They don't fit into your catholic state so what to do with them?
    Do you even know the difference between sunnis and shias because it's a very broad brush you've got there? Actually, do you have any idea what you're talking about at all because it seems to me you're just shooting from your (ignorant) hip?


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    mphalo1 wrote: »
    the native Irish chatolics

    Those people who can't stop talking?
    Hate them.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Christians kill gay people in some African countries, therefore gay people should be allowed to kill Christians here. Am I doing it right?

    It is quite possible for an Irish person to be anything other than Catholic, including Muslim.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,438 ✭✭✭TwoShedsJackson


    If only our grandfathers had fought for some full-stops.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭nc19


    The way I look at all things related to Islam and Muslims looking for people to accommodate them is what would the result be if you went to their country and asked for your culture and religious beliefs to be given equal footing. Not a chance.

    The french have it right imo


    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/call-for-state-schools-to-accommodate-islamic-beliefs-1.1915810



    Well, I saw this coming. Will be interesting to see how it goes though. I personally think nothing will happen. If it's taken so long for non denominational schools to get any sort of input, I can't see this getting any traction. If anything though it's just another form of Pastafarianism to me. It's a religion the majority outright reject but have to realise that it is nonetheless a religion, meaning the only way to rationally deal with it is to eradicate all religions. This Ali Selim could do more for secularism than anyone else :p.

    Getting to his requests though, they seem pretty brutal. Girls would have a separate gym to stop men looking at them when they have their head scarves off? No inadvertent touching of boys and girls, meaning school plays would be difficult if not impossible? I'm glad he's going the full hog and requesting such ridiculous things. It shows it up for the nonsense that it is and that's why I'm confident that nothing will happen other than a more secular education sysem be sought after.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    mphalo1 wrote: »
    they are Islam yes the ones that behead Christen children think of every other religion as infidels an are moving into other country's and demanding we ( the native Irish chatolics) change the way we run our schools to suit them( Muslims ) you want to live in Ireland and call yourself Irish but yet you are far from it, you want to live in our land (,our land = rep of ireland which our grandfathers fought for ) not for people of foreign lands ( middle east) but for us the true Irishmen and women catholic to be precise so stop trying to push your ways of living on our land it doesn't go down to well if history is anything to go by

    What a load of complete gobbledygook!

    In the context of the age of the earth and the timeline of human existence, we are not that far removed from the time of the Spanish Inquisition when 'Chatolics' were going about behaving in a way that is pretty much identical to how Islamic State are carrying on presently!


  • Registered Users Posts: 663 ✭✭✭masonchat


    Is it islamic/muslim teaching that the rest of us are infidels who are only to be toletated untill they are strong enough to kill us ?
    I ask because i really dont know, i know that is the extremist view but how do the non extremists view us


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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Another dose of bollixology from Dr Selim.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/muslims-in-ireland-seek-integration-not-assimilation-1.1917937
    He continues: “school is a public place, where no one has the right to dictate or impose their views or beliefs on another.”

    Hah!

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,450 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    Where the wearing the hijab by Muslim girls in Irish schools is concerned he says this “shouldn’t cause any more debate than other religious symbols worn by either male or female students in Irish schools do.”
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, take the religious aspect out of it and it becomes really simple.
    Want to wear rosary beads? Can you where necklaces? If so, then yes, of course you can. If not then no.
    Want to wear a hijab in class? Can you wear a hat in class? If so, then of course you can. If not then no.

    The rest of it validates my OP, he's really arguing for a completely secular system without him realising it. Careful now Ali.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    Ah here, catholicism is only a recent branch of christianity, which in itself is not a true Irish religion in any form. If you want to play that game, then it's no more "Irish" than Islam or Flying Spaghetti Monster-ism. christianity is about 1500 years in Ireland, pre-christian native Irish religions extend for over 7000 years before that. So thanks, but we've had enough of being pushed around and dictated to by foreign religions.

    It's a feckin' Italian bastardisation of a feckin' middle-eastern bastardisation of a religion practiced by Jews. Nothing Irish about it.

    I often wonder how people who equate Irishness with Catholicism can't see that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    masonchat wrote: »
    Is it islamic/muslim teaching that the rest of us are infidels who are only to be toletated untill they are strong enough to kill us ?

    No.


  • Registered Users Posts: 663 ✭✭✭masonchat


    Nodin wrote: »
    No.
    Thanks for clearing that up for me, i understand now


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    nc19 wrote: »
    The way I look at all things related to Islam and Muslims looking for people to accommodate them is what would the result be if you went to their country and asked for your culture and religious beliefs to be given equal footing. Not a chance.

    The french have it right imo
    I (a non Muslim)did live in "their country":rolleyes: and i can assure you my culture and beliefs were respected.

    Despite what I assume some on this thread might tell you Obama isn't a Muslim. He was raised for part of his life in the largest (by population) Muslim nation in the world, Indonesia. He attended St Francis of Assisi school in Jakarta. How does this fit in with your assumptions?


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    masonchat wrote: »
    Thanks for clearing that up for me, i understand now
    ???

    If he/she had of just said yes that would have been good enough for you to think that every Muslim in the world is just biding their time until they can slit your infidel throat for the glory of Allah? Seriously?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    What I find most amazing and amusing is the number of posters coming onto this thread, proclaiming Ireland a catholic theocracy as intolerant and opressive as the worst Muslim countries, and all this on the Atheism & Agnosticism forum!

    Isn't it just grand that all we have to do to prove our case is open a thread about a not-catholic religion and let in the fundies to play?


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Savage93 wrote: »
    No mention of butchery of non muslims in Iraq or condemnation of same by this eminent religious official of the muslim faith

    From the article:
    Dr Ali Selim, of the Islamic Cultural Centre in Dublin’s Clonskeagh
    Urgent Press Release Concerning ISIS Practices


    In full conformity with the Islamic teachings, the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland vehemently abhors and deplores terrorism of all kinds regardless of the perpetrators’ race and faith. Murder, the most horrendous act of terrorism, is strictly forbidden in Islam. In a deterring way Allah states that the murder of one person is as evil as killing all people. In the Qur’an it is stated: “whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.” (Trans. 05:32)
    On this basis, the ICCI unequivocally condemns the atrocities perpetrated in Iraq in the name of Islam. The ICCI stresses that these crimes can by no means be classified as a just struggle. ISIS is causing damage to image of Islam and Muslims all over the world. We share the shock and the horror of what was shown on the internet and television.
    As it condemns all types of terrorism; state, individual and extremist groups, the ICCI appeals to the entire world to live in peace, respect human rights and shun violence and create a just society where atrocities like these can not flourish.
    Ends
    21/08/2014
    http://www.islamireland.ie/news/urgent-press-release-concerning-to-isis-practices/
    Satisfied now?


  • Registered Users Posts: 663 ✭✭✭masonchat


    ???

    If he/she had of just said yes that would have been good enough for you to think that every Muslim in the world is just biding their time until they can slit your infidel throat for the glory of Allah? Seriously?

    If the poster said yes then obviously no further explanation would be required,

    I was more interested in the general muslim views as i dont know them which was the second part of my post .

    And no in reality i dont think that, but on the other hand that is the theme we get from the media so i hoped someone who knew might maybe elaberate


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,035 ✭✭✭coolbeans


    What I find most amazing and amusing is the number of posters coming onto this thread, proclaiming Ireland a catholic theocracy as intolerant and opressive as the worst Muslim countries, and all this on the Atheism & Agnosticism forum!

    Isn't it just grand that all we have to do to prove our case is open a thread about a not-catholic religion and let in the fundies to play?

    Total misrepresentation of what was said but don't let facts get in the way of your rant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    coolbeans wrote: »
    Total misrepresentation of what was said but don't let facts get in the way of your rant.

    Well he has a good point. Some of the same people who advocate for the continuing privilege of the Catholic religion within the education system appear to be horrified at the suggestion that concessions be made in schools for other religions. It is highly amusing!

    School is not the place for children to be indoctrinated with, or coerced into practicing any religion, but other religious groups have a very good argument due to the current system which allows special treatment for Catholicism. All religions should be treated equally within state funded institutions by law. Therefore the only way to go is secular.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    What I find most amazing and amusing is the number of posters coming onto this thread, proclaiming Ireland a catholic theocracy as intolerant and opressive as the worst Muslim countries, and all this on the Atheism & Agnosticism forum!

    Isn't it just grand that all we have to do to prove our case is open a thread about a not-catholic religion and let in the fundies to play?
    I have no idea what point you're trying to make here, or who you're directing it at. Sorry.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Think it was aimed at the large number of 'this is a catholic country' and 'build yer own schools' posters who have entered here in the last few days... they're as intolerant towards other religions and atheists as some muslim countries are.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    masonchat wrote: »
    If the poster said yes then obviously no further explanation would be required,

    I was more interested in the general muslim views as i dont know them which was the second part of my post .

    And no in reality i dont think that, but on the other hand that is the theme we get from the media so i hoped someone who knew might maybe elaberate
    Fair enough, I respect your honest answer.

    Far be it from me to preach to you and reluctantly I am using broad strokes here but one of the last places to find unbiased information on a given religion would be a place like this where people join together to discuss their hatred of religion.

    The last place of all to find unbiased information on Muslims and Islam is the media, who have their own agendas as well.

    For example, take Richard Desmond of Channel 5 a the Daily Star. He is a literal "friend of Israel". http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/steerpike/2013/11/shapps-and-desmond-bond-at-conservative-friends-of-israel-lunch/

    And consider then consider the admissions of one of his reporters who revealed that they make up and print Islamophobic stories as news.
    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2011/mar/04/daily-star-reporter-letter-full

    What you could do if you want to find out more is visit yur local Mosque, you will be warmly welcomed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 663 ✭✭✭masonchat


    Think it was aimed at the large number of 'this is a catholic country' and 'build yer own schools' posters who have entered here in the last few days... they're as intolerant towards other religions and atheists as some muslim countries are.


    I think there is a lot of confusion and its not borne out of any malice , if you go back 30 years this country was almost 100% catholic, i mean apart from the cities maybe and of course protestants (spelling sry) . And you wouldnt find much or any diverse cultures.

    Most people over 30 probably view ireland as a catholic country at its core , of course that is no longer the case , and kids growing up today are living in a very different country than i did.

    Of course now you have irish citizens of all color and creeds and that brought lots of different religions , and they all have the right to their faith, so you have to cater for them all in schools or none at all.

    Problem here is a lot of the schools here are probably owned by the catholic church , so it would be a nightmare for the government to suddenly change to a secular education system


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,532 ✭✭✭swampgas


    masonchat wrote: »
    I think there is a lot of confusion and its not borne out of any malice , if you go back 30 years this country was almost 100% catholic, i mean apart from the cities maybe and of course protestants (spelling sry) . And you wouldnt find much or any diverse cultures.

    Most people over 30 probably view ireland as a catholic country at its core , of course that is no longer the case , and kids growing up today are living in a very different country than i did.

    Of course now you have irish citizens of all color and creeds and that brought lots of different religions , and they all have the right to their faith, so you have to cater for them all in schools or none at all.

    Problem here is a lot of the schools here are probably owned by the catholic church , so it would be a nightmare for the government to suddenly change to a secular education system

    I agree with much of that, except the last part. If there were political will, it would be fairly easy. After all, the state already defines the curriculum and pays for the staff and much of the infrastructure. It's not like hundreds of new schools need to be built, we just need to make some small but significant changes to the way the current schools are managed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    masonchat wrote: »
    I think there is a lot of confusion and its not borne out of any malice , if you go back 30 years this country was almost 100% catholic, i mean apart from the cities maybe and of course protestants (spelling sry) . And you wouldnt find much or any diverse cultures.

    Most people over 30 probably view ireland as a catholic country at its core , of course that is no longer the case , and kids growing up today are living in a very different country than i did.

    Of course now you have irish citizens of all color and creeds and that brought lots of different religions , and they all have the right to their faith, so you have to cater for them all in schools or none at all.

    Problem here is a lot of the schools here are probably owned by the catholic church , so it would be a nightmare for the government to suddenly change to a secular education system

    No, it would be hard work, which is why they do what every government does, and kick it into touch as much as possible. Same with anything considered "difficult". Eventually there'll be a case of discrimination, the state will be taken to the European court, and they'll have to do something.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    From the article:
    Dr Ali Selim, of the Islamic Cultural Centre in Dublin’s Clonskeagh
    whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely
    TBH I don't find that quote from the Koran very comforting.
    There are two justifications for murder there;

    1. Revenge; "a soul for a soul". One possible fundamentalist interpretation of that is "the west" has killed thousands in the middle east and so a jihadist revenge is called for.

    2. "For corruption"; One possible fundamentalist interpretation of that is that infidels and particularly atheists are corrupted and so a jihadist clean-up is called for.

    Also bearing in mind that there is no central authority in Islam to interpret these things, so the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland does not speak for all muslims in the world. Not even all muslims in Ireland, or even all muslim clerics in Ireland.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,815 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    krudler wrote: »
    I laughed at this way more than I should have:

    Well, that rules out the imam winning a Ford Mondeo in his own raffle a la Father Ted! :pac:


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