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Whats your view's in the death penalty for..

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭prendy


    id say no to the death penalty..i agree with earlier post that noone has the right to take a life....
    HOWEVER prison should be tough and not a holiday camp.
    these people IMHO gave up their rights when they broke the law so make them pay back society when there in there.
    surely there are jobs they could do...make stuff like in US jails and pay them like €1 a day or something.

    i feel prison terms are
    1) way too short
    and
    2)way too easy


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭Bren1609


    Check out this site.

    http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/offendersondrow.htm

    It the texas dept of criminal justice death row list.

    It gives details of crime and pics of the con.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,340 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    the death penalty will never work because unless you catch the person in the act of killing there is always a chance that person on death row is actually innocent.

    Look how many death row inmates in the states have been released over the years because they were wrongly convicted. I remember reading about this one guy who was only a few weeks from being put to death until new evidence came to light and he was freed :eek:

    Nobody has the right to kill another no matter what the crime, christians are taught this from an early age; atheists like me are smart enough to know this :cool:

    Most of the countries where the death penalty is permitted (bar the states, japan, south korea) are like a who's who of hellholes: Afghanistan, Botswana, Burundi, Equatorial Guinea, Iran, Iraq, North Korea, Rwanda, Yemen, Sierra Leone, Libya, Sudan, Swaziland, Syria. I for one would love Ireland to join that fine list of nations :p


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    police, prison guards etc etc are the same as everyone else


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭prendy


    Check out this site.

    http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/offendersondrow.htm

    It the texas dept of criminal justice death row list.

    It gives details of crime and pics of the con.

    jesus theres some nutjobs on there...wasnt expectin the list to be that long tho.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 841 ✭✭✭Muff_Daddy





    I don't think that 15 years is a short time in prison. It's an eternity. You go in when you're 20, you're out when youre 35. You could go in being a cold merciless killer, and go out wishing you hadn't wasted your life. Imagine the best years of your life were spent tucked up with your chamberpot and only the occasional rape by an AIDS infected junkie to keep you company.




    You might think 15 years is a long time for a murderer, but I do not. Not even close. To even suggest that 15 years for murder is a just sentence... quite frankly that's insane. 35 years of age is still young enough to live in luxury in another country where you wont be recognised. I don't believe murderers should be given a second chance either, you commit murder, you suffer the concequences. And I don't mean to sound like Hitler, I'm not saying we utilize the DP randomly to anyone, only to punish certain criminals.

    Rossie, I understand the arguement of an innocent person wrongly accused of the DP....and if there's a hint of doubt as to who purportrated the crime, then the DP shuould not be used in my view. I realise that 95% of murder cases are like this, and therefore, the DP should only be used when it is known for definate exactly who committed the crime of murder.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭bill_ashmount


    I'm against the death penalty but i think there should be longer sentences. Someone convited of murder should get life without parole.


    but the average length of time served before first release on licence in Ireland is, I understand, approximately 14 years.

    This to me is a disgrace and an insult to the victims. 14 years on average for murder, i'm just surprised there isn't more murder when this is the average penalty.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 SureThisIsIt


    Well, I guess you'd have to be a victim or know a victim of one of these horrible crimes to really know if you're opposed to the death penalty.

    Also, I think that calls for the death penalty are an over-reaction to the ridiculously lenient sentencing in Ireland. If the criminals convicted of the most serious crimes were seen to be removed from society until they were no longer a danger or had at least shown some remorse then the law abiding public would be feel a lot safer.

    The attempted murder of a Garda as mentioned at the start of this thread will probably result in an 8 year sentence, if even that. Forget about the death penalty and bring in the 3 strike rule.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,421 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    That paradox is crap. If someone supports the death penalty for murderers, then by definition they don't support it for non murderers, and if a non murderer was put to death, they didn't support it.

    The debate is really whether given the legal system, would someone support the death penalty, and given the joker's we have in this country, then no, we'd be far behind even the US on matters of justice (DP aside). I think we need to get away from the idea of jail time as rehabilitation time, when it's not, it's there to punish people and ultimately take revenge on that person by taking away their freedom.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,340 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    astrofool wrote:
    That paradox is crap. If someone supports the death penalty for murderers, then by definition they don't support it for non murderers, and if a non murderer was put to death, they didn't support it.

    that ain't what the paradox says, read it again it makes no mention of what you claim:
    If you support the death penalty, and only one single innocent person (on death row) is killed, and killing an innocent person is murder, then you are a murderer, so you deserve to be killed

    There have been documented cases of people being put to death in america despite being innocent of their crimes e.g Ruben Cantu.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,421 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    What you're arguing is implementation of the sentencing, which is a seperate issue to whether you support something or not. It's not as black and white as supporting it fully and in all it's forms throughout the ages of man and not supporting it at all.


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 16,186 ✭✭✭✭Maple


    Against the Death Penalty but think harsher sentences and tougher prison conditions should be implemented.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    What about that Texas list, there's hundreds of names on it! The state of Texas has a shocking record on execution. More people were executed in Texas during the Bush governership than in all in the rest of the country put together, with not a single pardon (quite unusually). Hardly a surprise really given subsequent events.

    Knowing the fallibility of the justice system it stands to reason that a few of those hundreds are innocent of the crime they've been convicted of.

    In many ways I'd be happy to see all the lowlife scumbags in Ireland (and there seems to be an ever-increasing number) rounded up and shot in the head one by one, or at least sterilise the lot of them so they can't produce the next generation of sh1t. Now there's a Hitleresque solution.

    Not saying I'd actually go through with that but I do think that some of the fcukstains deserve no better. No respect for anybody or anything, stab their own granny if she got in the way.

    BUT, I cannot agree with the death penalty in ANY circumstance, it's just not my right (or anyone else's) to call time on somebody else's life, even if I'd like to sometimes. We just have to say no to it in ALL cases, regardless of the crime, which thankfully has happened in most of the civilised world (Texas still fries people in the electric chair, so we can't really class them as 'civilised')


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,367 ✭✭✭✭watna


    Well, I guess you'd have to be a victim or know a victim of one of these horrible crimes to really know if you're opposed to the death penalty.

    Also, I think that calls for the death penalty are an over-reaction to the ridiculously lenient sentencing in Ireland. If the criminals convicted of the most serious crimes were seen to be removed from society until they were no longer a danger or had at least shown some remorse then the law abiding public would be feel a lot safer.

    The attempted murder of a Garda as mentioned at the start of this thread will probably result in an 8 year sentence, if even that. Forget about the death penalty and bring in the 3 strike rule.

    I agree that the talk of the death penalty is due to how ridiculous sentences are in Ireland. I son't agree with the death penalty in any circumstance. What's that saying, an eye for an eye leaves us all blind? Life in prison, should mean that, no parole, EVER. As much as I don't think prisoners should have privileges but they can still contribute to society by working in prison. They should pay for their upkeep.

    Interestingly, I asked my other half does he agree in the death penalty, he grew up in a township in South Africa where crime is out of hand. He said he grew up afraid that someone would break in to the house, his mum was stabbed in a robbery once. He agrees with the death penalty there, but not here or in NZ (where he moved to at 16). I'm not sure that argument fully makes sense but I do see his point I suppose. Maybe we need to sort out the justice system here by being stricter on punishments before the death penalty is necessitated.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    DonJose wrote:
    The family of the murder victim have a life sentence, 15 years is nothing. Life should mean life.
    Muff Daddy wrote:
    You might think 15 years is a long time for a murderer, but I do not. Not even close.

    As I posted earlier, life does mean life. You are detained at the mercy of the Minister for Justice. If he wishes to keep you in prison all that time he can, if he wishes to release you, he can, if he decides you should go back in again for a spell, you can. There's no avoiding it. Your liberty is in his hands for the rest of your natural life.

    It's easy to say that 15 years is nothing, it's easy to say 240 years (like the Americans hand out from time to time) is nothing, but the reality is that even a short spell in prision is not pleasant, and a stretch of years is much harder than it sounds. Think about everything you've done over the last 15 years and imagine it never happened to you. Think about how differently you saw the world back then. And think about spending 15 long years in a place like mountjoy. For the wrongly convicted it must be torture (see Papillon), for the remorseless it can wear them down, and for a fair few people, it's a long time to reflect on the mistakes of your youth.

    Murder is a very serious crime, but I would say that no 2 murders are alike. You can't tar them all with the one brush, and the minister must do what he thinks is best for society. I think that the current system strikes a good balance - some sentences are too lenient, some are too harsh, but most are about right.
    DonJose wrote:
    I've read stories of scumbags getting off with murder and getting a couple years for manslaughter. Only to be locked up again for murder at a later stage.

    That they committed murder at a later stage does not mean that they committed murder the first time. It's a jury of 12 normal people who decide convictions, and their decision is, although not infallable, at least more reliable than any one person's opinion.
    This to me is a disgrace and an insult to the victims. 14 years on average for murder,

    With respect, I think it is an even greater disgrace and insult to the victims of crime or the families of murder victims, when the people kick them about like political footballs in order to make the point that sentences are too lenient. I would venture to suggest that the majority of victims and families do not call for blood or demand massive sentences/death penalty etc. This is because they have to at some point get on with their lives, and the healthiest way to do this is to accept that no mortal punishment will undo the crime.

    It is very difficult for the victims of crime to understand or even forgive their assailant, but many do, or at least try to, and that is a very admirable quality. Some victims want harsher sentences, they are entitled to address the court for this purpose, and I think this is a very important part of the criminal justice system. But the feelings of other victims, who want to move on from the crimes, should also be considered.

    I respect the views of the victims of crime and the families of victims. Which is why I wouldn't use them to advocate my general view on sentencing. Their views are taken into account in particular instances, but I very much doubt that the daily calls for blood in the Herald come from the actual victims/families - I see this as political exploitation.
    i'm just surprised there isn't more murder when this is the average penalty.

    That's exactly it - very few if any murders think about the potential penalty when they are committing the murder. It's not like stiffer penalties for road traffic offences or unpaid tv licences where people make rational choices about whether to commit the offence or it - murder doesn't work like that.
    Muff Daddy wrote:
    To even suggest that 15 years for murder is a just sentence...quite frankly that's insane.

    It is a sentence, what else is it?
    Muff Daddy wrote:
    35 years of age is still young enough to live in luxury in another country where you wont be recognised. I don't believe murderers should be given a second chance either, you commit murder, you suffer the concequences.

    If someone is convicted of murder, gets a life sentence, spends 15 years in prison and when released goes on to live a quiet, unassuming life, maybe occasionally getting drunk or illegally parking, but otherwise doesn't get into trouble or hurt anyone, then what is to be gained by killing them instead. Apart from any moral considerations, society benefits from the person not being executed, especially if he warns others off a life of crime. It seems to me that calls for stiffer sentences and the death penalty are people's way of voicing dissatisfaction with the rate of crime in Ireland. But while it's easy to demand tougher sentences, it's much harder to get more gardai and take action against crime. Hence politicians, newspapers etc want people to believe that the problem lies with sentencing, and then present stiff sentences as though they were a minor annoyance (15 years is nothing etc).
    police, prison guards etc etc are the same as everyone else
    The idea behind stiffer penalties for attacking a policeman while on duty is that it is an attack on the state. The real reason for the criminal justice system is to maintain law and order in the country, and all the other reasons (rehabilitation, punishment, revenge etc) are just a sideshow.


  • Registered Users Posts: 841 ✭✭✭Muff_Daddy




    It is a sentence, what else is it?

    I think you missunderstood me......I meant 'just' as in fair.

    First of all johnnyskeleton, I do agree with you that no two murders are the same, and that every individual case of murder should be treated differently and fairly. Like I said in my original post, I believe the death penality should only be used to punish the absoloute worst of criminals. People who have intentionally and maliciously robbed another of the precious gift of life, and should never be allowed to enjoy the privilages, rights or freedoms you or I enjoy.

    My opinion is not influenced by media. I don't read any of the rags, and I don't believe sob stories in the Evening Hearld either. But when I see a murdering gangster walking away from a place he should never be allowed leave, I'm able to say to myself "Hang on a minute......this is not right". The Death Penality would have ensured that the criminal would never walk free again. You may call it draconian, but I call it a fair price to pay for murder.

    I respect your opinion, but I simply cannot comprehend a murderer being let out ever...let alone long enough to live a fulfulling life. I don't believe a murderer deserves a second chance, as nothing he could do for society could make up for his crimes, bar maybe curing cancer and wiping out AIDS......but then again I can't picture 'Dutchie' Holland becoming the next Mother Theresa. Thats all I'll say on the matter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 761 ✭✭✭grahamo


    Build a prison on a small uninhabited island out in the atlantic. Stick the scum in there for life and I mean LIFE! Allow them a visit once a year. When criminals take away people's rights they should lose their own. An added bonus is there will be no mobile phone signal so they won't be able to keep in touch with their cronies!


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    grahamo wrote:
    Build a prison on a small uninhabited island out in the atlantic. Stick the scum in there for life and I mean LIFE! Allow them a visit once a year. When criminals take away people's rights they should lose their own. An added bonus is there will be no mobile phone signal so they won't be able to keep in touch with their cronies!
    Yeah. We could call it Spike island or something.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,067 ✭✭✭L31mr0d


    ?

    Sometimes things like this scare me.

    Does nobody believe in rehabilitation as the cure? People apply emotions to matters like this way too much, using terms like "scum".

    Who has the right to say who should lose their life. Has anyone here who is pushing for the death sentence actually ever watched another humanbeing being killed in real life? It is truly horrific and anyone who thinks it is right for humans to kill other humans, regardless of there crime should watch what happens, and I don't mean watching the pasteurised lethal injection, watch a beheading, because in both instances the person ends up the same... dead.

    We are a civilised society and in such we should be looking for ways to cure the perpetrator of these crimes and institute changes that will act as a future prevention to this. I don't believe locking people up or killing them solves anything. As locking up criminals just acts as a breeding ground to make criminals worse, and killing them doesn't explain to us why these people committed these crimes in the first place.

    We need to be more proactive in curing the cause rather than the effect.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,421 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    A cure to a disease kills the disease :)

    The biggest problem is that there are very few cases where rehabilitation does actually work. Also, what if a murderer could be fully rehabilitated in one week (and proven so), should he then walk free? Prison and the death penalty are both about revenge by society on that person for committing a crime.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭coolhandc


    kill them,whos gona miss them?might make other scumbags think twice in the future.and the gardai need to be armed,they have very little respect by some people,maybe if they were carrying a gun it would be different.prison sentences also need to be hardened.criminals are treated to well in prison in this country its a joke.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    astrofool wrote:
    A cure to a disease kills the disease :)

    The biggest problem is that there are very few cases where rehabilitation does actually work. Also, what if a murderer could be fully rehabilitated in one week (and proven so), should he then walk free? Prison and the death penalty are both about revenge by society on that person for committing a crime.

    No, prison is about punishment, rehabilitation and removal of a potentially dangerous person from society, the death penalty is purely about revenge. Murdering people, either clinically in the name of a government, or by a criminal with a gun, is wrong IMO.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 10,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭Andrew76


    rossie1977 wrote:
    that ain't what the paradox says, read it again it makes no mention of what you claim:



    There have been documented cases of people being put to death in america despite being innocent of their crimes e.g Ruben Cantu.

    rossie that paradox does fail but not for the reason astro mentions. Supporting the death penalty does not make you a murderer, it just makes you a supporter of the death penalty.

    My own opinion is that the DP is wrong because of the innocent victim scenario but more so because it doesn't belong in a civilised society (one day in the far-off future we might get there).


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    Andrew76 wrote:
    rossie that paradox does fail but not for the reason astro mentions. Supporting the death penalty does not make you a murderer, it just makes you a supporter of the death penalty.

    My own opinion is that the DP is wrong because of the innocent victim scenario but more so because it doesn't belong in a civilised society (one day in the far-off future we might get there).
    Hi. Welcome to Ireland.
    The year is 2007.
    It has been 53 years since anyone in this country was executed.

    The death penalty was officially abolished in 2001.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 10,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭Andrew76


    Terry wrote:
    Hi. Welcome to Ireland.
    The year is 2007.
    It has been 53 years since anyone in this country was executed.

    The death penalty was officially abolished in 2001.

    I obviously wasn't clear in my post. Replace the word "society" with "human race". Maybe that might clear it up for you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    I fully support & agree with the Death Penalty. An eye for an eye, in my opinion. Despatch them off this earth as soon and as fast and as cheaply as possible after the guilty verdict is read out.

    This applies to murder in all cases, civilian and emergency services.

    TJ911...


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