First Irish born Golden Eagle for 100 years found poisoned in Sligo

Tester46 · 03-03-2010 6:28pm

Alun wrote: »

So, in a case like the one described, what level of proof would you consider reasonable to achieve a prosecution? It's hardly the kind of case where you're either likely to catch someone red handed or have witnesses, after all, so unless you accept a certain degree of circumstantial evidence, you're never going to prosecute anybody, and in that case what's the point of having a law that's effectively unenforceable?

The answer is simple. If the poisoned bait found on a farm is matched to the poisoned bait in the eagle's stomach, that should be enough to "prove" the crime. The legislature can then reverse the burden of proof so that the onus is then on the farmer to prove that he is not responsible for the poisoned bait on his land.

This is done already for many other criminal offences, and can be done for this. If a farmer is worried about being unjustly convicted, he could pay for tests to show the dead lamb/afterbirth/other containing the poison did not come from any of his stock.

Alternatively, would the farming community agree to chemical tagging of all poisons bought by farmers?

I also would have thought that local communities (and the farmers themselves) would bring an end to this practice because as best it won't attract new tourists and at worst it might put many tourists off visiting the area. "Poisoned Eagles in Sligo" won't look good in the next Lonely Planet Guidebook.

snowstreams · 03-03-2010 6:43pm

greeneyedspirit wrote: »

That would be the start to a solution, yes. I have a feeling, though, that (some) farmers still feel threatened by the eagles and are convinced that they will take their lambs. So it's probably a fair amount of ignorance, combined with fear, that's keeping the farmers from taking simple measures like covering the poisoned carcass.

Hopefully the farmers from Donegal can show the benefit the Golden eagle has for keeping Hooded crows away. Apparently they are having better lambing seasons now in areas where the golden eagle live because there are less attacks on lambs from hooded crows.
The farmers Journal should be mentioning that in any future article on protecting Eagles.

Birdnuts · 03-03-2010 6:55pm

snowstreams wrote: »

Hopefully the farmers from Donegal can show the benefit the Golden eagle has for keeping Hooded crows away. Apparently they are having better lambing seasons now in areas where the golden eagle live because there are less attacks on lambs from hooded crows.
The farmers Journal should be mentioning that in any future article on protecting Eagles.

Exactly - The irony is that this eagle was fed as a youngster by its parents on the likes of fox cubs and crows which highlight the fact that these birds are very much the farmers friend. Reading the papers today it really is shocking that it increasingly appears that over half the 53 eagles released in Donegal appear to have been lost to human persecution - with poisoning being the main culprit. Seems that elements of the farming community in the West are still living in the Dark ages despite in many cases getting most of their income from the Irish and EU taxpayer:mad:

Birdnuts · 03-03-2010 7:49pm

Tester46 wrote: »

But hang on, isn't the point that this type of poisoning is now illegal? So isn't the Farmers Journal actively advising its readership on methods of committing a crime?

Just like the head of the ICSA tried to cover up this disgraceful, illegal and backward behaviour by saying that the Golden Eagle Trust should have advised farmers in the Sligo area of the presence of the eagle and then they might have temporarily stopped their illegal activities - so now it's the Golden Eagle Trust's fault.

The only way to deal with these law-breaking farmers is to hit them where it hurts. Even though they wail and moan and whinge about how they are the unappreciated and underpaid custodians of the countryside, the reality is that they don't give two shi*es about the countryside if they can make more cash by abusing it. So, when an eagle is found poisoned, have immediate inspections of all farms in the vicinity. And any farmer caught will have his single farm payments removed for a year. Another poster has already pointed out that the stomach contents of a poisoned eagle can be matched to a poisoned carcass found in the inspections. That should be sufficient proof and avoid good farmers being unjustly punished. It'll stop the poisoning. No point appealing to the backward farmers' better nature - they don't have one.

If you want to complain to the people who matter (and you should) email:

Minister Environment - john.gormley@oireachtas.ie

Minister Agriculture - brendan.smith@oireachtas.ie

Editor, Irish Farmers Journal, Matt Dempsey - mdempsey@farmersjournal.ie

Go on, do one quick email now to all three, you know you want to

I learnt today that Birdwatch Ireland sent a letter to the IFJ calling on them to retract the disgraceful article in question - while they published the letter they have not retracted the offending article that has basically set back conservation in this country years if not decades

In light of this the pressure needs to be kept on the IFJ to do the decent thing - I've have already sent an email to Matt Dempsey that pulls no punches and will publish it when i get a response. I would encourage anyone who cares about this grave matter to do the same:)

Crann na Beatha · 03-03-2010 7:52pm

This post has been deleted.

Birdnuts · 03-03-2010 8:13pm

Iolar wrote: »

It breaks my heart to see such cruelty bestowed on such a majestic bird,why do farmers insist that these wonderful birds threaten their livelihood?

The same reason they wiped them out before - pure ignorance:(

Nerin · 03-03-2010 8:30pm

Posted an article about this on my site, then saw the email addresses, so sent all three an email:

To whom it may concern,

I wish to express my concern over the news that yet another reintroduced bird has been killed.
This news is sad news for those out there, that like myself, enjoy some of the rich beauty the Irish countryside gives us.
I find it very worrying that 10 percent of Irelands Eagles have been killed. The Irish Times reports that "In total, nine white tailed eagles, golden eagles and red kites have been poisoned in the last two- and-a-half years."
This is unacceptable.
The actions of a few, quite frankly idiotic and backwards, farmers have put the wonderful reintroduction project at risk.
Do the Ministers for Agriculture and Environment plan on taking any action?
The careless use of such poisons believed to be the cause of the recent Eagle death are widely condemned by both Rural and Urban dwelling Irish people.
Perhaps checking all farms within a certain radius of lands found to contain such poisons and acting accordingly (with fines etc) would be proper practice?
It is also to my dismay that a publication so widely read as the Farmers Journal would advise farmers to use "Alphachloralose placed in a dead lamb or the afterbirth" to trap foxes.
To quote Goldeneagle.ie : "This appalling advice on the unlawful use of fallen poisoned livestock, is indicative of a glaring disregard for regulations within a small sector of the Agricultural community and more crucially within the main weekly voice of Irish farming. "
I learn today that the Farmers Journal have not retracted the article, even after being notified just how wrong it was by Birdwatch Ireland.

I hope that my email, along with many others, will make you take some sort of action, whatever your position may be, as Minister for the Environment, Minister for Agriculture and Editor of the Farmers Journal.

Birdnuts · 03-03-2010 8:32pm

Nerin wrote: »

Posted an article about this on my site, then saw the email addresses, so sent all three an email:

Good stuff:)

artieanna · 04-03-2010 12:52am

I think things need to be levelled out here a bit.

Are Eagles a threat to sheep and young animals? Give me the facts please
I have read a few articles and would be inclined to think that there is quite a high risk of attack.

Even grey crows will pick out lambs eyes (fact) it has happend locally and its not nice.

If there is no threat to farm animals why aren't the local farmers notified of the release of the birds and sent the correct information to inform them of the risks or advising them that there is no risk.

Eagles are beautiful birds.
But the farmer must protect his own animals cattle, sheep, pigs or chickens, if they are at risk.

I also think posioning is the most despickable way of killing any animal because of the suffering caused.

I know very little about golden eagles like the majority of people. so why aren't people informed by the media etc when a release takes place???

If there are risks to farm animals then maybe they shouldn't be released?

I am just trying to get a balanced view, as alot of people feel the farmers don't care which is not the case. Don't tar them all with one brush..

Sorry for the long post....

Birdnuts · 04-03-2010 2:04am

artieanna wrote: »

I think things need to be levelled out here a bit.

Are Eagles a threat to sheep and young animals? Give me the facts please
I have read a few articles and would be inclined to think that there is quite a high risk of attack.

Even grey crows will pick out lambs eyes (fact) it has happend locally and its not nice.

If there is no threat to farm animals why aren't the local farmers notified of the release of the birds and sent the correct information to inform them of the risks or advising them that there is no risk.

Eagles are beautiful birds.
But the farmer must protect his own animals cattle, sheep, pigs or chickens, if they are at risk.

I also think posioning is the most despickable way of killing any animal because of the suffering caused.

I know very little about golden eagles like the majority of people. so why aren't people informed by the media etc when a release takes place???

If there are risks to farm animals then maybe they shouldn't be released?

I am just trying to get a balanced view, as alot of people feel the farmers don't care which is not the case. Don't tar them all with one brush..

Sorry for the long post....

In the nearly 10 years of the eagle projects in Ireland there has been no documented case of any live, healthy lamb or any other kind of livestock being killed by these birds - its simply a myth based on ignorance that eagles are a threat to sheep - there is so much sheep carrion on irish hills and mountains due to neglect, poor hubandry, overgazing, bad weather etc. that losses from other sources such as Grey crows are miniscule and certainly do not justify the action of the criminal elements behind these eagle deaths . Indeed there is strong evidence to suggest that Grey Crows simply feed on sheep/lambs that are already dead or dying and I've yet to meet any farmer who claims to have seen these crows actually set apon a healthy sheep and pluck out its eyes.

Indeed the only reason scrawny unfortunate sheep are put out to ek a living on Irelands boggy mountainsides is because this totally uneconomic activity is heavily susbsidized by the Irish and EU taxpayer which make the events of the last few days all the more sickening:mad:

PS: On the subject of information, both in Donegal and Kerry were many eagles have already been illegally poisoned farmers have been made well aware of the situation by a host of state agencies and publicity drives - most farmers in the West are now in REPS which is meant to promote environmental responsibiblity so this kind of gombeen attitude to birds of prey like eagles simply won't wash anymore

snowstreams · 04-03-2010 10:19am

artieanna wrote: »

I think things need to be levelled out here a bit.
.....
Even grey crows will pick out lambs eyes (fact) it has happend locally and its not nice.
....

I mention above in the thread that Golden eagles are known to keep grey crows away because the actively hunt them. They turn out to be a benefit for the farmer because there are less attacks on lambs by grey crows & so less lambs need to be put down.
I agree, that if farmers really knew the benefits involved & that the risks to livestock is non existent, then the poisonings would stop over time.
Donegal farmers have said that they have had their best lambing seasons due to the eagles keeping vermin away.
This needs to be more widely publicised, particularly by the Farmers journal after that disgraceful article it published a few weeks back.

Tester46 · 04-03-2010 10:55am

Like any effective measure, there needs to be a carrot and stick approach.

The carrot could include education on the benficial effects for farmers and the wider community of these natural birds of prey, continuation of the REPS payments, the ability of farmers and the local community to promote their area as "eagle country", etc.

The stick should be severe - loss of REPS/Single Farm Payment.

This should not be a farmer -v- conservationist debate. In this this case, it is in everyone's interests to have these magnificent animals successfully reintroduced. There is simply no downside.

Birdnuts · 04-03-2010 12:35pm

Tester46 wrote: »

Like any effective measure, there needs to be a carrot and stick approach.

The carrot could include education on the benficial effects for farmers and the wider community of these natural birds of prey, continuation of the REPS payments, the ability of farmers and the local community to promote their area as "eagle country", etc.

The stick should be severe - loss of REPS/Single Farm Payment.

This should not be a farmer -v- conservationist debate. In this this case, it is in everyone's interests to have these magnificent animals successfully reintroduced. There is simply no downside.

+1

greeneyedspirit · 04-03-2010 12:59pm

Tester46 wrote: »

Like any effective measure, there needs to be a carrot and stick approach.

The carrot could include education on the benficial effects for farmers and the wider community of these natural birds of prey, continuation of the REPS payments, the ability of farmers and the local community to promote their area as "eagle country", etc.

The stick should be severe - loss of REPS/Single Farm Payment.

This should not be a farmer -v- conservationist debate. In this this case, it is in everyone's interests to have these magnificent animals successfully reintroduced. There is simply no downside.

+1 - absolutely right. On the scottish Isle of Mull, they're making good money out of their eagles, and protecting them fiercly. Why can't we do that here?

thehairyone · 04-03-2010 2:13pm

Hi All,

Just after sending this email to both John Gormley and Brendan Smith, if you have time I would encourage you to send your own, feel free to use this as a template if you wish;

Dear Minister,

I am writing to you to express my shock and concern at the recent death of the Irish born golden eagle "Conall" at the Sligo/Leitrim boarder due to poisoning by Nitroxynil poured on the fleece of a dead lamb.

This has not been the first case of poisoning of reintroduced birds of prey in this country and has even led to bad press internationally and as of yet no prosecutions have taken place. This situation has damaged Ireland's reputation as a tourist destination and threatens Ireland's commitments made under the Convention of Biological Diversity to "Rehabilitate and restore degraded ecosystems and promote the recovery of threatened ecosystems, inter alia, through the development and implementation of plans or other management strategies".

Golden eagle, the white tailed sea eagle and the red kite are all listed under Annex I of the Birds Directive, in addition the golden eagle is red listed on the Birds of Conservation Concern in Ireland while the red kite is on the amber list. As such, these birds are in need of strict protection which is sadly not the case at the moment.

Ireland has been brought to task by the European Union in the past due to a lack of action on nature conservation issues with considerable cost to the tax payer. With cases currently pending and surely more to come due to this current poisoning debacle is it not time that the Government stopped wasting tax payers money and sort out these issues without the need for the European Union to intervene. Surely money spent solving these issues now would save money in the long run by reducing the need to pay legal fees and any associated fines that we may receive.

It is time for your Government to introduce strict and easily enforcable laws banning the use of all poisoned baits in the Irish countryside. The current situation is unacceptable and the lack of action shown by the Government is appalling. It is time we honoured our national, international and moral commitments to protect these magnificent birds so that they can take their rightful place in the Irish countryside and be protected for future generations to enjoy.

Kind Regards,

XXXXXXX
A Concerned Citizen

Birdnuts · 04-03-2010 2:29pm

thehairyone wrote: »

Hi All,

Just after sending this email to both John Gormley and Brendan Smith, if you have time I would encourage you to send your own, feel free to use this as a template if you wish;

Dear Minister,

I am writing to you to express my shock and concern at the recent death of the Irish born golden eagle "Conall" at the Sligo/Leitrim boarder due to poisoning by Nitroxynil poured on the fleece of a dead lamb.

This has not been the first case of poisoning of reintroduced birds of prey in this country and has even led to bad press internationally and as of yet no prosecutions have taken place. This situation has damaged Ireland's reputation as a tourist destination and threatens Ireland's commitments made under the Convention of Biological Diversity to "Rehabilitate and restore degraded ecosystems and promote the recovery of threatened ecosystems, inter alia, through the development and implementation of plans or other management strategies".

Golden eagle, the white tailed sea eagle and the red kite are all listed under Annex I of the Birds Directive, in addition the golden eagle is red listed on the Birds of Conservation Concern in Ireland while the red kite is on the amber list. As such, these birds are in need of strict protection which is sadly not the case at the moment.

Ireland has been brought to task by the European Union in the past due to a lack of action on nature conservation issues with considerable cost to the tax payer. With cases currently pending and surely more to come due to this current poisoning debacle is it not time that the Government stopped wasting tax payers money and sort out these issues without the need for the European Union to intervene. Surely money spent solving these issues now would save money in the long run by reducing the need to pay legal fees and any associated fines that me may receive.

It is time for your Government to introduce strict and easily enforcable laws banning the use of all poisoned baits in the Irish countryside. The current situation is unacceptable and the lack of action shown by the Government is appalling. It is time we honoured our national, international and moral commitments to protect these magnificent birds so that they can take their rightful place in the Irish countryside and be protected for future generations to enjoy.

Kind Regards,

XXXXXXX
A Concerned Citizen

An excellent email there - I will send it to family and friends for the purpose:)

johngalway · 04-03-2010 4:04pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

that losses from other sources such as Grey crows are miniscule........ I've yet to meet any farmer who claims to have seen these crows actually set apon a healthy sheep and pluck out its eyes.

Ignorance is a word you throw about quite a lot, yet you're guilty of it yourself by seemingly hating farmers you take no interest in the subject and spend no time asking.

I've had tongues and eyes of healthy, but defenseless, lambs and ewes picked out by greycrows. A heavily pregnant ewe rolled onto her back and could not right herself, the crows took one eye out of the side of her head. A young lamb had 3/4's of it's tongue pulled out by greycrows after it got separated from it's ewe and twin.

Ignorance, yeah, it's the right world alright.

knealecat · 04-03-2010 4:14pm

email sent to John Gormley.

I sugest everybody does the same.

anneboleyn · 04-03-2010 4:20pm

There's got to be ways of protecting animals that don't involve poisoning scarce birds of prey surely?

megadodge · 04-03-2010 4:55pm

There's got to be ways of protecting animals that don't involve poisoning scarce birds of prey surely?

Protecting what animals ?

Eagles don't prey on sheep/lambs !!

They will feed on carcasses, but when it comes to hunting, they DO NOT hunt sheep/lambs and among their regular prey are grey crows and fox cubs, both of whom ARE a threat to sheep/lambs.

I'm not attacking you 'anneboleyn', I'm just sick and tired of this ignorance in relation to eagles. It's this ignorance that leads to poison being laid.

And on that point, is it actually illegal to lay poison in this country ? I thought farmers could get permission in certain circumstances ? (which I think is morally reprehensible)

thehairyone · 04-03-2010 5:32pm

Just after receiving the following response from Brendan Smiths (Minister for Ag.) secretary;

"As this issue falls within the remit of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Mr John Gormley TD, your correspondence has been forwarded to his Private Secretary for attention and direct reply to you."

This lack of joined up thinking is what is wrong with this country, surely both of these Departments have an interest in this issue. By failing to deal with the issue together a solution will be harder to find and implement.

snowstreams · 04-03-2010 6:56pm

johngalway wrote: »

...
I've had tongues and eyes of healthy, but defenseless, lambs and ewes picked out by greycrows. A heavily pregnant ewe rolled onto her back and could not right herself, the crows took one eye out of the side of her head. A young lamb had 3/4's of it's tongue pulled out by greycrows after it got separated from it's ewe and twin.
....

Since its in the interest of farmers to keep the grey crow population down, shouldnt farmers take some interest in the welfare of these eagles if they will help to keep vermin away and under control? (rather than the attitude the IFJ had recommending to leave poison out on dead new born lambs for fox control)

johngalway · 04-03-2010 7:07pm

snowstreams wrote: »

Since its in the interest of farmers to keep the grey crow population down, shouldnt farmers take some interest in the welfare of these eagles if they will help to keep vermin away and under control? (rather than the attitude the IFJ had recommending to leave poison out on dead new born lambs for fox control)

I do my own grey crow, plus other pest and vermin, control, which does not involve poison. Not up to me what the IFJ write TBH.

Kess73 · 04-03-2010 7:10pm

johngalway wrote: »

I do my own grey crow, plus other pest and vermin, control, which does not involve poison. Not up to me what the IFJ write TBH.

Not asking what your methods are, but I am curious as to what falls under the heading of pests and vermin for you? And what impact do they have on your land/livestock?

Just asking as it is always good to hear more than one side of a story.

johngalway · 04-03-2010 7:36pm

Kess73 wrote: »

Not asking what your methods are, but I am curious as to what falls under the heading of pests and vermin for you? And what impact do they have on your land/livestock?

Just asking as it is always good to hear more than one side of a story.

Pests and vermin is just a general type of throw away term for me to be honest. Specific birds and animals cause me specific problems.

Greycrows, I have seen then remove eyes and tongues. I've also seen pairs of them chase song birds, didn't see the end result but I'm doubting it was fun for all at the end. Young lambs are at risk here, ewes lamb out and get supplementary feeding. So, when the farmer comes to feed the ewes, they usually leave their lambs where they are to run, get a quick bite, and then run back to them. Believe you me, crows are smart. I've fed ewes, went around looking for ones that have just lambed to drop them a bite to eat and I've seen young lambs lying down, bleating for the ewe that's gone to the trough and disturbed crows "stalking" them. Lamb doesn't know the crow is a danger, all the crow see's is food, easy for a perfectly healthy, but defenseless animal to loose an eye and worse.

Magpies, mostly to protect the local songbird population. Finally had enough of them seeing 9+ fly about together on my farm one day, with the added bonus of seeing a LOT of small broken eggs scattered about. I've also seen magpies try to add damaged to stock already attacked by grey crows. The magpies don't have the strength to do as much initial damage as the grey crows do, but they will go for bits around the eye (you know where your "sleep" gathers?) and tug at that.

Mink! They'll kill fowl, wild and reared, they've also killed lambs and I believe hoggets in this area.

Foxes. No doubt the emotive one for this forum. Wonderful creature but an extremely efficient killer at lambing time. One farmer about 6 mile from me called me over as I have a lamp and rifle. She has good land, lots of grass, good quality stock, in short a well managed farm. 16 or 18 lambs had been killed the past week. Shot one vixen (not in pup or rearing) the next night. In the next week, one lamb was lost. Shot one more vixen the next Saturday night, no more lamb losses.

Rats & mice. Can be problematic in relation to eggs in hen houses, wiring, and anything "chewable".

They're pretty much all the species I'd be looking to control. Note I don't say eradicate.

Greater black backed seagulls are also known to give lambs problems. I believe it's mostly for the afterbirth they come around, but like the fox, if they get something easy, they'll eat what they can.

I've had a few calls about deer, mostly damaging young trees, decimating saved grass on which freshly lambed ewes would be let out on. But, not owning a legal deer calibre I'm not yet involved in stalking.

Two protected species also cause some problems, namely badgers and ravens. Badgers will kill fowl and young lambs if they get an opportunity. I have seen ravens "stalk" young lambs, like how the greycrows do it as described above. But, as said, they're both protected so besides scaring them off, there ain't a whole lot I can do with them.

Valmont · 04-03-2010 7:45pm

JohnGalway, as a sheep farmer yourself, do you think that this golden eagle was enough to cause one farmer a lot of trouble? Surely the government would reimburse him for any lambs taken by the eagle considering it's a reintroduction program? I've seen them in the wild swooping down on marmots and ferocious is an understatement!

johngalway · 04-03-2010 7:58pm

Valmont wrote: »

JohnGalway, as a sheep farmer yourself, do you think that this golden eagle by itself was enough to cause one farmer a lot of trouble? Surely the government would reimburse him for any lambs taken by the eagle considering it's a reintroduction program? I've seen them in the wild swooping down on marmots and ferocious is an understatement!

Quick answer to your question is, I don't know. I have no experience of them, their habits, prey or hunting techniques.

Personally I have a problem in the theory that a farmer was to blame, I don't think that can be said with 100% certainty. The substance used is readily and easily available to the general public, I'm sure a lamb carcass wouldn't be impossible to come by either. It was not smart or clever either to publish the name of the substance used. I've seen people do bizarre things, including attempt to burn down their own house, occupied, just for attention.

The problem with the reimbursement idea is how do you implement it practically? A ewe lambs, the lamb goes missing. What happened to it? Fox? Dog? Eagle? Little green men from Mars? I think only someone of the raw thinking ability of a Donald Rumsfeld could answer that, known unknowns... I think it would be a nightmare, as Governments generally want a paper trail, in triplicate, and then rechecked up on to prove the most basic of things. If you can't prove the initial loss, where does that leave everyone involved?

Birdnuts · 04-03-2010 7:59pm

Valmont wrote: »

JohnGalway, as a sheep farmer yourself, do you think that this golden eagle was enough to cause one farmer a lot of trouble? Surely the government would reimburse him for any lambs taken by the eagle considering it's a reintroduction program? I've seen them in the wild swooping down on marmots and ferocious is an understatement!

There were no lambs on the mountain were the Golden eagle was found and there have been no documented cases of any eagle taking live lambs in Ireland. It really is sad how this myth of eagles as a threat to sheep is still out there :rolleyes:

Birdnuts · 04-03-2010 8:02pm

johngalway wrote: »

seemingly hating farmers you take no interest in the subject and spend no time asking.

.

Come on mods - Why is this person allowed to post rubbish like this

:mad:

johngalway · 04-03-2010 8:03pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

Come on mods - Why is this person allowed to post rubbish like this:mad:

Quick search and read of your posts will show your attitude towards farmers I'm sure

First Irish born Golden Eagle for 100 years found poisoned in Sligo

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