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Aircoach Dublin-Cork express

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    As soon as this X8 service starts up I'll be switching to Bus Éireann for my trips to Cork.

    Reasons being for me door to door will be just as quick as Aircoach because of the Heuston Station pick up point. BÉ drivers also never have a problem letting me off at Palmerstown footbridge on the way into Dublin.

    Also the new Irizar i6 coaches are an in my opinion an "intercity" coach, the levels of comfort just beat Aircoach on all levels. Admittedly the legroom could be better, but as an 5"8 bloke it doesn't bother me at all.

    Finally the price with the Internet discount beats all other operators on the route.


    On the topic of Abbeyliex/Durrow, I don't really understand BÉs reasoning at all. I was on the 008 last Sunday and 8 people alighted at Abbeyliex and 3 boarded. BÉ should run a service every hour on this route, on odd hours the service could call all stops Dublin to Urlingford and then non-stop to Cork, on even hours it could run Dublin to Urlingford non-stop and then all stops to Cork. In my experience the patronage is there, especially with Aircoach out of the picture.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    BenShermin wrote: »
    Reasons being for me door to door will be just as quick as Aircoach because of the Heuston Station pick up point. BÉ drivers also never have a problem letting me off at Palmerstown footbridge on the way into Dublin.

    I would be interested to know what would happen if there is an accident whilst letting people off a bus stop which has not been authorized as being safe by the Garda. All bus stops on scheduled services have to be approved. by the Garda. BE letting people off at bus stops which are not scheduled is a minor beach of a license.

    It's not Aircoach that are being awkward by not stopping at Palmerstown Bridge, it is them sticking to the rules that they have to adhere to as part of the licensing process. If they set down people at a non marked bus stop for the service, they risk having action taken against they by the NTA or the Garda, so of course they wouldn't risk this.
    Also the new Irizar i6 coaches are an in my opinion an "intercity" coach, the levels of comfort just beat Aircoach on all levels. Admittedly the legroom could be better, but as an 5"8 bloke it doesn't bother me at all.

    I would consider quite the opposite. Give me a leather seat with leg room any day of the week. I know you had a bad experience before and for you obviously the more limited legroom is not a problem, but for many people it would be. The new Bus Eireann coaches have plug sockets, but legroom is the most basic thing to get right in relation to comfort on a coach.
    Finally the price with the Internet discount beats all other operators on the route.
    But only by 15 cent (return) and is more expensive for walk up passengers for a return fare, and a very limited range of departures just six a day, nothing before 8am and nothing after 6pm. So the timetable is hardly useful for people who are attending events etc, without involving a hotel stay somewhere along the route. That is my gripe with BE, I think most people would rather pay 15c extra for a return and have a choice of 17 buses each day rather than 6 with very limited departure time spread.
    On the topic of Abbeyliex/Durrow, I don't really understand BÉs reasoning at all. I was on the 008 last Sunday and 8 people alighted at Abbeyliex and 3 boarded. BÉ should run a service every hour on this route, on odd hours the service could call all stops Dublin to Urlingford and then non-stop to Cork, on even hours it could run Dublin to Urlingford non-stop and then all stops to Cork. In my experience the patronage is there, especially with Aircoach out of the picture.

    I would assume Bus Eireann is worried about the possible bleed of end to end customers to Aircoach. If they lose too many customers from the route to Aircoach they would be left with mostly the intermediate passengers. Whilst the intermediate passengers will have gone up since the Aircoach service has been discontinued, I doubt there is enough there if they lose a lot of the direct traffic, so they decided to try and drop a few of the Town's, whilst speeding up the journey to Dublin to stop any possible bleed of customers. A sound business decision in my view.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    All fair enough points. In relation to the Palmerstown stop it is Garda cleared for BÉ coaches to stop at, there is a BÉ pole there. I think Mullingar/Edenderry services drop off there so I see no problem with other coaches making "unofficial" stops there. In fairness it isn't a Westmoreland Street situation we're talking about.

    It also only takes a minute to drop off pax there so it's hardly a situation like Aircoach where they have an unofficial stop at Urlingford for 15mins which can greatly jeprodise an on time arrival at Dublin/Cork.

    It's only fair I brought the legroom situation, it is a big minus for tall pax. I agree, BÉ have made a big cock up here just to have a few extra seats on the coach. I've been on Irizar services run by Lux Express in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia that have bags of legroom and at seat fold down tables that would give you enough room to have a cavery on!! I'm getting off the point but I don't see how anybody could prefer a Aircoach seat to an Irizar seat if there's enough legroom. I've a 6"2 friend who agrees.

    Can't agree on the intermediate stops at all I'm afraid, I believe BÉ running hourly services serving half the towns on odd hours and half the towns at even hours would prove profitable and it would actually speed up services city centre to city centre overall. This business of coming off the motorway to serve Portlaoise and then going back on the motorway to Urlingford is ridiculous. Even if they only got one pax from Portlaoise to Abbeyliex it would pay for the Portlaoise M8 toll.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    Can't multi quote on the phone I'm afraid but it's also a fair point on the timetable. I usually depart/arrive in Cork between 8am and 6pm anyway so it makes no difference to me. Obviously having no arrival in Dublin Airport before 12 midday is absolutely useless to a vast majority of customers.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Got the 3am Aircoach from Cork last night!!

    What a pleasure to stumble out of a club after a night partying with my friends in Cork and straight on the bus up to Dublin!! :)

    Something that was never possible with BE/IR. I always hated having to go home early on a Sunday and miss lots of fun with my friends.

    10 people on board, so not too bad for a brand new 3am service. Most seemed to be going to the airport, so higher fares too.

    Arrived in Dublin after just 2 hours 45 minutes :) Also the driver was super nice and friendly. Really I can't believe the guy was so fresh and perky working a night shift like that!!

    We passed one of the new BE buses on the quays, man these aircoaches have way more leg room then the new BE coaches. The Aircoach buses even have way more legroom then the trains. No comparison at all. Great for tall people. You don't need to get up and walk around with this sort of leg room.

    The Aircoach coach was super clean, nice and comfortable.

    The 12 am ex-Dublin arrived at 2:50, looked like quiet a crowd on board it, I'd say at least 25 to 30 people, surprised for such a late service.

    I passed the quays in Cork at 7pm earlier and there was a massive crowd waiting to board, I'd say 80% full. Unfortunately it looked like they were using the older 2004 bus, which looks a little rough around the edges and tatty. Also shows the big need for shelters along the quays.

    It is a pity there is such a big gap in schedule between 7pm and 1am ex-Cork.

    Coming from Dublin on Friday at 5pm things not looking so good. Coach didn't arrive until 5:10 and took 15 minutes to board. It was about 95% full. Also someone asked to stop at Urlingford along the way. Didn't get into Cork until 8:30. But I think this is the worst it would ever get, peak time traffic and all that, so really not bad.

    Also there was almost chaos on Westmoreland St, with three Aircoaches arriving around the same time (two to Dublin Airport while the Cork bus was taking so long to load) on top of the usual 16's etc.

    There seems to be a lot of confusion with people heading to Cork trying to board a bus to Dublin Airport and vice versa. With lots of forigners, the drivers looked annoyed having to hold up a large sign saying Dublin airport to get the point across.

    I also notice that when there is a big crowd, it takes a long time to board. In particular I notice that it takes significantly longer to board a passenger with a reserved online ticket then a cash customer!! Seems the driver needs to type a long code number in for each pre-paid customer!! Really shouldn't be needed.

    So on the whole a really excellent service. It seems passenger numbers are doing really well, looks like it really is taking off despite the lack of advertising and the website.

    There are however operational issues to be resolved and improved upon. Really think it needs toilets to cut out the Urlingford stop. Also need to improve boarding times of busy buses and the situation at Westmoreland St really needs sorting.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭KCAccidental


    the overnight services really are excellent. I've had quite a few foreign friends of mine happy to go out in Cork until closing time and then hop on to the aircoach to catch their flight the next morning. convenient for the party crowd ;)


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    bk wrote: »
    We passed one of the new BE buses on the quays, man these aircoaches have way more leg room then the new BE coaches. The Aircoach buses even have way more legroom then the trains. No comparison at all. Great for tall people. You don't need to get up and walk around with this sort of leg room.

    That is pretty much the problem I've heard a few people have with the New Bus Eireann coaches, they do seem to be a step above on the interior compared to coaches they had before, but like I found out when I took one on another route, the seat spacing is possibly worse than some of the other coaches that Bus Eireann have in their fleet.
    I passed the quays in Cork at 7pm earlier and there was a massive crowd waiting to board, I'd say 80% full. Unfortunately it looked like they were using the older 2004 bus, which looks a little rough around the edges and tatty. Also shows the big need for shelters along the quays.

    Which coach was it? One of these or one of these? I
    It is a pity there is such a big gap in schedule between 7pm and 1am ex-Cork.

    You may see that filled later in time and if there is competition from GoBus and possibly Bus Eireann.
    arriving around the same time (two to Dublin Airport while the Cork bus was taking so long to load) on top of the usual 16's etc.

    That seems to be bad luck that two coaches on the airport run stopped at the same time as the Cork one, I doubt that would be a very frequent situation, although whoever allowed the Dublin Coach service to stop there a well ought to be shot really because that street was already overflowing and allowing an extra service there was nonsense.
    There seems to be a lot of confusion with people heading to Cork trying to board a bus to Dublin Airport and vice versa. With lots of forigners, the drivers looked annoyed having to hold up a large sign saying Dublin airport to get the point across.

    The problem is generally people do not read the displays, I've been waiting for the Cork bus before, and despite the fact CORK is written in big writing on the front, back and side of the coach, they still start putting their luggage in and cannot understand the coach does not go to the airport. You also have the same with people wanting to go to Cork, who get on the airport bus, unfortunately nobody can help passengers who simply ignore displays.
    I also notice that when there is a big crowd, it takes a long time to board. In particular I notice that it takes significantly longer to board a passenger with a reserved online ticket then a cash customer!! Seems the driver needs to type a long code number in for each pre-paid customer!! Really shouldn't be needed.

    They do ask on all tickets booked online that you are present 10 minutes before the coach arrives, in my experience people turn up to get on the coach about 1 minute before it is due to depart and these are the same people that moan if it leaves a few minutes late, which is rather ironic as of course if everyone turns up at such a time then of course the service is going to be delayed. This is not specific to Aircoach however, it effects quite a few matters.

    Unfortunately the problem with validating online reservations is people I know for a fact have been printing out email confirmations that are fake, which is quite easy to do. Therefore they now only allow tickets to be booked up to 5pm on the day before travel so the driver is given the information from the booking system so he can validate if the actual ticket is genuine. Previously Aircoach did text barcode tickets, but the company who supplied this service went bust, owing the company around 30,000 euro at the time as well as the fact Aircoach had to buy all of the scanning machines and technology to power the system which became useless overnight as it was bespoke by textus. Without investing in a whole load more technology for such validation, this is their only choice.
    There are however operational issues to be resolved and improved upon. Really think it needs toilets to cut out the Urlingford stop. Also need to improve boarding times of busy buses and the situation at Westmoreland St really needs sorting

    The problem with toilets is that I would say a number of the coaches that Aircoach have are on multi-year leases that still have a while to run, if they were to terminate such vehicles early they'd have to pay a lot of money up front, then they need to lease new ones. Note that all vehicles running the Cork service have come from the existing fleet, they have not acquired any new vehicles to run the service. If they were to lease new ones with toilets, they'd either need to pay the rest of the lease up-front to terminate the existing vehicles, sit them around doing nothing (a non usable asset), or find some other use for them, which I'm not so sure would work out that well.

    The difference with GoBus is that they already have most of their fleet tied up on the Galway service all of the time, so therefore they would need to lease new coaches to run the Cork service, allowing them to be more flexible as all of their assets are currently performing and are in use.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    bk wrote: »

    I passed the quays in Cork at 7pm earlier and there was a massive crowd waiting to board, I'd say 80% full. Unfortunately it looked like they were using the older 2004 bus, which looks a little rough around the edges and tatty. Also shows the big need for shelters along the quays.

    Also there was almost chaos on Westmoreland St, with three Aircoaches arriving around the same time (two to Dublin Airport while the Cork bus was taking so long to load) on top of the usual 16's etc.

    There seems to be a lot of confusion with people heading to Cork trying to board a bus to Dublin Airport and vice versa. With lots of forigners, the drivers looked annoyed having to hold up a large sign saying Dublin airport to get the point across.


    I also notice that when there is a big crowd, it takes a long time to board. In particular I notice that it takes significantly longer to board a passenger with a reserved online ticket then a cash customer!! Seems the driver needs to type a long code number in for each pre-paid customer!! Really shouldn't be needed.

    So on the whole a really excellent service. It seems passenger numbers are doing really well, looks like it really is taking off despite the lack of advertising and the website.

    There are however operational issues to be resolved and improved upon. Really think it needs toilets to cut out the Urlingford stop. Also need to improve boarding times of busy buses and the situation at Westmoreland St really needs sorting.

    Firstly (:D),as a CIE group employee,I see the new services as being hugely desirable in a "Float all boats" manner of speaking..

    However,bk's post underlines the most worrying aspect of the issue,the refusal of the various administrative agencies to get the off-bus infrastructure into a safely functional mode BEFORE allowing the services to commence.

    I won't comment on the Cork end,but the situation at Dublin's Westmoreland St Terminus/Stop is well beyond acceptable and IMO is a serious public safety concern knowlngly facilitated by the NTA,Dublin City Council and An Garda Siochana.

    The expansion of Aircoach service's along with Dublin Coach's services added to the pre-existing Dublin Bus services was quite obviously going to make an already dangerous situation far worse.

    It did not need a PhD in anything other than Common Sense to be aware of it,and therefore it is inexplicable to me that the NTA stood by and facilitated a substantial increase in Risk Factor for ALL users on Westmoreland St.

    It is my belief that,currently,the three agencies have left themselves wide open to charges of Corporate or Contributory Negligence in the event of a serious accident at this location.

    I strongly believe that the Health and Safety Authority should intervene on this issue in the Public Interest as the responsible authorities themselves appear to have totally disregarded Public Safety here.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    It's worth noting however the fact is that before O'Connell Street was reorganised, Aircoach never had a stop on Westmoreland Street, the stop was actually at the top end of O'Connell Street nearest the river.

    However because of a lack of space when part of the street was designated as not being able to have any bus stop infrastructure there anymore, it was decided that there was not any room to fit Aircoach in a similar location so they were moved to Westmoreland Street instead.

    So I think we need to look at the fact that DCC also created this situation by carrying out the above actions and Aircoach have already been moved once so I can see why they will not be particularly happy at the prospect of getting moved once more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    It's worth noting however the fact is that before O'Connell Street was reorganised, Aircoach never had a stop on Westmoreland Street, the stop was actually at the top end of O'Connell Street nearest the river.

    However because of a lack of space when part of the street was designated as not being able to have any bus stop infrastructure there anymore, it was decided that there was not any room to fit Aircoach in a similar location so they were moved to Westmoreland Street instead.

    So I think we need to look at the fact that DCC also created this situation by carrying out the above actions and Aircoach have already been moved once so I can see why they will not be particularly happy at the prospect of getting moved once more.

    All well and good,but it does not absolve DCC and the NTA from their obligations to ensure that they provide a Safe environment for the services to operate from...which is patently not the case in Westmoreland Street.

    This shortfall is,sadly,not a recent occurrence as the continuing flagrant disregard for the basics of the Road Traffic Act can be seen every day as Dualway City Tour continue to operate an ad-hoc Stop at the junction of O Connell St/Sackville St which will eventually cause a serious RTA (Not Contribute to,but CAUSE).

    IF the NTA,RSA and An Garda Siochana wish to be taken seriously as best-practitioners in their fields they will have to up their game significantly,in similar manner to some of the operators whom they regulate. :mad:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    devnull wrote: »
    Which coach was it? One of these or one of these?

    I think it was the Setra, but in white.
    devnull wrote: »
    The problem is generally people do not read the displays, I've been waiting for the Cork bus before, and despite the fact CORK is written in big writing on the front, back and side of the coach, they still start putting their luggage in and cannot understand the coach does not go to the airport. You also have the same with people wanting to go to Cork, who get on the airport bus, unfortunately nobody can help passengers who simply ignore displays.

    True, people should know better, however I think the problem is a combination of the name of the company Aircoach, and then being surprised it is going to Cork, plus the fact that you have two different destinations going from the same stop, which wouldn't happen in most other countries. Not for Airport and intercity services.

    devnull wrote: »
    They do ask on all tickets booked online that you are present 10 minutes before the coach arrives, in my experience people turn up to get on the coach about 1 minute before it is due to depart and these are the same people that moan if it leaves a few minutes late, which is rather ironic as of course if everyone turns up at such a time then of course the service is going to be delayed. This is not specific to Aircoach however, it effects quite a few matters.

    Well with the exception of the 3am service last night, every Aircoach to Cork I've taken so far has either turned up or only started boarding on the hour. So no point in turning up 10 minutes early.

    Actually I and most passengers were standing there from 4:45. Very big crowd on westmoreland st.
    devnull wrote: »
    Unfortunately the problem with validating online reservations is people I know for a fact have been printing out email confirmations that are fake, which is quite easy to do. Therefore they now only allow tickets to be booked up to 5pm on the day before travel so the driver is given the information from the booking system so he can validate if the actual ticket is genuine. Previously Aircoach did text barcode tickets, but the company who supplied this service went bust, owing the company around 30,000 euro at the time as well as the fact Aircoach had to buy all of the scanning machines and technology to power the system which became useless overnight as it was bespoke by textus. Without investing in a whole load more technology for such validation, this is their only choice.

    Well that is unfortunate, hopefully with the fancy new touch screen ticket machines being trialled by Kavanaghs for the NTA, Aircoach can eventually switch to these ticket machines.

    They should allow for cheap barcode scanners and also the ability to accept bookings much closer to the departure time, due to being online via 3G.

    I do find 5pm the day before to be a little to constraining. Obviously it hasn't been an issue on their quieter Airport services, but with the Cork services looking to be so busy, I think it will become an issue and they will have to push more towards online booking to figure out when they might have to put relief services on.
    devnull wrote: »
    The problem with toilets is that I would say a number of the coaches that Aircoach have are on multi-year leases that still have a while to run, if they were to terminate such vehicles early they'd have to pay a lot of money up front, then they need to lease new ones. Note that all vehicles running the Cork service have come from the existing fleet, they have not acquired any new vehicles to run the service. If they were to lease new ones with toilets, they'd either need to pay the rest of the lease up-front to terminate the existing vehicles, sit them around doing nothing (a non usable asset), or find some other use for them, which I'm not so sure would work out that well.

    I completely understand and appreciate that. I only keep bringing it up as I'm hoping that over the next few years, as they renew their fleet, they will take this feedback on board.

    They currently seem to be mostly operating their 2009 fleet on the Cork route and their older 2004 fleet on the Airport routes. Having seen the 2004 buses, they look very worn. I'm only guessing, but I don't think they have much more life left in them on such a highly utilised service. I would guess that they will have to sell off these 2004 coaches in the next few years and buy in new coaches.

    I would hope the new coaches will have toilets on board, power at every seat and a table (I know queue big argument) and that these will be put on the Cork route and the 2009 coaches put on the Dublin airport services where they are perfect for and the lack of toilet isn't a big deal.

    Of course if GoBus enter the Cork route with toilet enabled buses, then they might be forced to buy or lease toilet enabled buses much sooner in order to compete.

    I'd love to know if the new Levante they have has a toilet on board? Anyone know?

    Also what coaches are they using on the new Belfast service? We haven't heard any reports from this new service yet. They were rumours that these coaches would have toilets. Both these pieces of information might indicate the future direction of aircoach fleet.
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    I won't comment on the Cork end,but the situation at Dublin's Westmoreland St Terminus/Stop is well beyond acceptable and IMO is a serious public safety concern knowlngly facilitated by the NTA,Dublin City Council and An Garda Siochana.

    On the Cork side, there isn't such a big safety issue, however a person could be pushed in the river.

    One issue in Cork that could be easily dealt with immediately is cars parking illegally at the bus stops and forcing people unto the road to board the bus.

    The other problem in Cork is that it is very exposed to the weather along the river, there should really be a long bus shelter all along the river, with the back of the shelter facing the river. It really is miserable standing there while raining.

    Of course personally I'm of the opinion that the bus station should be owned and run by the NTA and all operators allowed to use it.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    bk wrote: »
    I think it was the Setra, but in white.

    You mean this one:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/6841717789/

    That one has a toilet and is the older design Setra that dates from the early 1990's, even if this vehicle was manufactured in 2005. They only have one of them. I believe they got it at a very good price as it was an ex demo model and it is actually owned from what I have heard as opposed to leased. It seats 51 if I remember correctly. The problem is that the coach was dated when it was bought as it was an old design that had since been discontinued, so time has not been kind to what was already an outdated design.

    That design was replaced the design that is used on the Blue Setra's that were first manufactured in 2003. They try to tend to avoid putting them on the Cork route due to the low seating capacity but they have very nice interiors, very similar to the 2009 coaches but with the seat back tables (constantly broke my people) and slightly more leg-room. They've worn a bit now as you would expect, but still good coaches. Setra's are widely regarded as the best and most premium coach brand in Europe. They have about 20 now, all from 2004, but had 32 previously, the 12 which have gone were from 2003 and they left in 2009.

    What does need to depart however is the three Scania coaches that they have such as the one I posted a picture of, whilst again I think they operate well and are reliable, they're well worn, lack the leg-room of the other coaches in the fleet and don't have leather seats etc. They are owned though so they are more rather easy to get rid of.

    Well that is unfortunate, hopefully with the fancy new touch screen ticket machines being trialled by Kavanaghs for the NTA, Aircoach can eventually switch to these ticket machines.[

    The problem is however many operators are not actually happy with having to use such equipment when they already have perfectly functioning machines already. For example Aircoach has the same ticket machines as Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann, yet they are told they need to buy different ticket machines from what public operators need to, to carry out the same task. Also there is back office training to be done. The machines used by CIE/Aircoach are industry standard, the new machines are not and would need intense driver training.
    I do find 5pm the day before to be a little to constraining. Obviously it hasn't been an issue on their quieter Airport services, but with the Cork services looking to be so busy, I think it will become an issue and they will have to push more towards online booking to figure out when they might have to put relief services on.

    The trouble is you need to give the driver the details of the passengers and tickets before his shift starts, and with Aircoach being a 24 hour operator, there has to be some cut off point. It's not like Dublin Bus where there are some hours when no vehicles operate where you can just update the ticket machines, some of those vehicles are out there non stop 24 hours a day 364 days a year. It's a shame a small minority have attempted to fare evade, but Aircoach are not alone with this problem.

    They currently seem to be mostly operating their 2009 fleet on the Cork route and their older 2004 fleet on the Airport routes. Having seen the 2004 buses, they look very worn. I'm only guessing, but I don't think they have much more life left in them on such a highly utilised service. I would guess that they will have to sell off these 2004 coaches in the next few years and buy in new coaches.

    Mechanically plenty of life I would say. Would they benefit from a retrim inside or some level of refurbishment. I'd say so. But as explained before, pretty much the majority of vehicles that are needing it are leased and are probably close to the end of the lease. It's really not worth spending the money on such vehicles, when you'll be rid of them in a year or two anyway. Why not let that be sorted out by the company who is leasing the vehicles, or the next operator and save yourself a few quid that can be invested in the new vehicles. You keep saying they should sell and buy coaches, but you seem to forget that outside the state operators the vast majority of private operators own very little, nearly everything is leased.
    and the 2009 coaches put on the Dublin airport services where they are perfect for and the lack of toilet isn't a big deal.

    Apart from the fact they are tri-axle's and there are some services where a tri-axle simply can't run because of their length.
    Of course if GoBus enter the Cork route with toilet enabled buses, then they might be forced to buy or lease toilet enabled buses much sooner in order to compete.

    Well if the leases are soon to be up on the other vehicles then it is a possibility, if they have a few years to run then without committing financial suicide it's very hard. The company are loss making for the last year and this year I doubt will be much better, considering investment in new services. You can't lease new vehicles and leaving existing ones sitting around that they replace until their lease runs out. Any financial gain you make from the new vehicles attracting extra customers will be wiped out by the cost of paying for vehicles which are not earning money.
    Also what coaches are they using on the new Belfast service? We haven't heard any reports from this new service yet. They were rumours that these coaches would have toilets. Both these pieces of information might indicate the future direction of aircoach fleet.

    And where would they get the cash from to get such extra vehicles with toilets. It seems they are mostly using the Blue Setra's on such fleet.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    devnull as you say, I certainly don't expect them to make a massive financial outlay for no reason at all.

    However as you say if the leases are up on some of their coaches soon, then hopefully they will make the decision to lease new toilet equipped coaches. After all they don't have to replace their entire fleet, just the Cork and eventually maybe the Belfast fleet. The rest of the Airport fleet don't need toilets.

    If on the other hand their leases aren't up soon and GoBus do launch, then that will put them in a difficult situation. You start loosing passengers to GoBus due to them having toilets and advertising aggressively. Where is the tipping point of loosing passengers versus breaking the lease?

    Perhaps they could just lease 4 or 5 new coaches to cover the busiest peak times.

    Just musing about this. The Aircoach service is so close to being perfect. This is just the last major issue.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    bk wrote: »
    However as you say if the leases are up on some of their coaches soon, then hopefully they will make the decision to lease new toilet equipped coaches. After all they don't have to replace their entire fleet, just the Cork and eventually maybe the Belfast fleet.

    We'll have to see what happens. It'll be interesting to see what they will go for, maybe the Caetano they have may influence future policy, but then again I think they'll also take into account what their experiences are with the vehicles they do have, along with price..
    Where is the tipping point of loosing passengers versus breaking the lease?

    Perhaps they could just lease 4 or 5 new coaches to cover the busiest peak times.

    That is something only the company will know. But I would say it would be more than a few passengers would have to be lost for it to be worthwhile to lease new vehicles and then have non-performing assets as there does not look to be any other routes they may start up.

    Again the problem of leasing 5 new coaches to cover the periods would be you then have 5 non performing assets you are paying. I have no idea what the lease of a typical luxury coach would be, maybe someone else could answer that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    The Cork route is supposed to operate primarily the 2008/9 vehicles supplemented by the White Setra and the 2006 Scania PB which also operate the Cork route.

    You have to remember that within a 24 hour operation, which is what all Aircoach routes now are, you are always going to have around 20 vehicles out there at any one time during the quietest times such as the early hours. There are no reduced timetables at weekends or hours when every vehicle is off the road which means that dealing with replacement vehicles for those that run late, or need time in the workshop is much more challenging.

    So in those cases they send out what is the most suitable vehicle at hand, and causing the least disruption to service which isn't always the standard for the route but it's better than no bus at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭dardhal


    Well, it seems the express Cork - Dublin Airport service is quickly catching up with passenger numbers, or it may just be the holiday season that makes more potential customers be able to enjoy the services.

    The fact is, on Tuesday morning I had a ticket booked from Cork to Dublin Airport departing at 9 AM, and what she has reported to me is she barely made to Dublin Airport on time, as they arrived about half an hour later than planned (at the advertised arrival time in the airport, 12.25, they were still setting down people at Dublin city center).

    It seems problems began just from the start, lots of people packed in front of the coach door, and the driver had to prioritize those who booked in advance first (don't know if anyone was left stranded in Cork for lack of seats though). It seems the drivers still have to adapt to the new situation, because as passenger numbers increase they can no longer expect to leave on time if they show up just five minutes prior to planned departure, as I have experienced in the past most of the times (but there were only a handful of us, so it was more than enough time to sort the ticketing issue).

    So dealing with the crowd made them to leave Cork ten minutes later. And the coach stopped halfway there at the usual spot. But, again, a planned 5-minute stop can be that long when you have less than 10 people traveling. When the coach is packed with 50 people, even if only half of them get out for a pee or to buy some stuff, that is going to take in excess of 10 minutes to finish, if not more.

    So an express service that should have arrived in Dublin city center at 12.00 PM arrived nearly half an hour later, and those who were confident on Aircoach timetables and arrival times in the airport had a very stressful time (fortunately, she made it to the checking desks and past the security checks on time). But Aircoach should deal with the increased number of passengers and what it brings in terms of logistics, if they don't want to piss people at these early stages.

    1. Drivers should be there at the coach and ready to deal with passengers, luggage and tickets at least 15 minutes prior to departure, and encourage passengers to board early. Not the kind of "airport-like" early, but at least, soon enough not to leave late.

    2. The stop at Urlingford may be unplanned and undesirable back then when there were fewer users of the service, because after all, you were going to arrive in the destination at the right time, if not a bit earlier (traffic jams permitting). They should enforce their "express" service specially in the way to Dublin Airport and when passenger numbers anticipate the stop lasting too long. Sure, you may take the bus one hour earlier, but then what is the point of an express service if in the end you have to waste one additional hour, just in case there are 30 people peeing and 20 some more buying overpriced crap in a substandard intermediate stop that shouldn't be there in the first place?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dardhal There was the Red Hot Chilli Peppers concert on in Dublin last night. Many, including some friends of mine, were probably coming up for that :D

    It seems like this new Cork route is taking off like a rocket for Aircoach. Word of mouth is really spreading and loadings seems to be very, very good. I'd imagine Aircoach are thrilled and will make a lot of money with this service.

    With this success, I wonder if they might not look for a license for a similar service to Limerick and give it a go. To be honest I think a Limerick route would have made more sense then the new Belfast route.

    However as you say, the service still has many rough edges that need to be sorted. While Aircoach are operationally very good, I don't think they have the experience of running a service like the Cork Route. The Cork route is very different beast to their previous experience with the Dublin Airport routes.

    With the Dublin Airport routes, the loadings are pretty low, so the driver turning up 5 minutes before and the long time to board passengers (in particular pre-booked passengers) isn't a big deal as there are only a few people there.

    Clearly this isn't the case on the Cork route, with very large number of passengers using the service, it takes far too long to board passengers, in particular pre-booked passengers.

    I think Aircoach need to look at this and change their operational procedures on this route.

    - Turn up and start boarding passengers 15 minutes before departure.
    - New ticket machines or process to deal with pre-booked tickets faster.

    I know that I'm a broken record on this, but I also think if financially possible, they really need to have a toilet on board a service like this, so that they can cut out the Urlingford stop.

    BTW dardhal, your friend really should give herself more time when heading to the Airport, specially when coming from as far as Cork. I would say this if you were taking, bus, train or car. You just can't know if you will hit an accident on the road, broken down train, traffic jams, etc. Better to give yourself plenty of time and turn up early and have a nice relaxing coffee, then to be all rushed and just about make it.

    PS Does anyone know does the Cork bus use the port tunnel or does it go through Drumcondra when heading to the airport?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    A few points
    • There is congestion at Westmoreland Street thanks to DCC allow Dublin Coach to stop there when there was no room for them. This was a problem even before the expansion of the Aircoach Cork service
    • Dublin Coach departures leave at xx:45 past the hour almost every hour.
    • Aircoach departures used to leave the airport at xx:15 minutes past the hour, arriving at Westmoreland Street around xx:45 or so.
    • Thanks to the addition of the Dublin Coach service, it was seen that there was not the space for an Aircoach to idle at such stop for 15 minutes.
    • This could well be why they moved the Dublin Airport services to xx:30 past the hour rather than xx:15
    • It also could be related to EU working time guidelines, bearing in mind the rest period at Cork city has been cut by half since the timetable change, and the driver break in Urlingford is now not included. These extra 15 minutes could result in the timetable being legally unworkable without extra staff.

    Dublin Coach have the Limerick market almost sew up, as their service is pretty much an express as it is, I don't see there being any scope to run such service in the future.

    The good news is that rumour has it that there could be more coaches on their way transferred from elsewhere in First, although that seems to just be a rumour at the moment. They won't be new, that is for sure, more likely from 2004-2006.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    [*]It also could be related to EU working time guidelines, bearing in mind the rest period at Cork city has been cut by half since the timetable change, and the driver break in Urlingford is now not included. These extra 15 minutes could result in the timetable being legally unworkable without extra staff.

    I think in time, at peak times there maybe need for an extra member of staff at Cork and Westmoreland St, to sell tickets and board passengers before the driver arrives.

    A ticket vending machine on Westmoreland St and Cork might also help.

    Also a barcode/q-code scanner for the ticket machines might help too.
    Dublin Coach have the Limerick market almost sew up, as their service is pretty much an express as it is, I don't see there being any scope to run such service in the future.

    More so then BE/UL on the Belfast route?

    I think Dublin Coach are less competition then BE/UL pose in Belfast. Dublin Coach don't have the massive advertising and marketing might of BE/UL behind them.

    Also Dublin Coach don't operate to Dublin Airport and don't have late night services, so I could certainly see lots of scope for strong competition from a 24 hour Aircaoch service to Dublin Airport from Limerick.

    But I understand part of the motivation behind the Belfast route, was that most of their staff are based in Belfast and they already have a depot there to. So probably easier to setup.

    But still, I think it was a mistake on their part.
    The good news is that rumour has it that there could be more coaches on their way transferred from elsewhere in First, although that seems to just be a rumour at the moment. They won't be new, that is for sure, more likely from 2004-2006.

    Being older isn't really an issue, if they have toilets on board then it would be very welcome news. It would also be great if they could expand to fill the gaps in the schedule of the Cork route.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Interesting, the following appeared yesterday on Aircoaches wikipedia entry:
    In July 2012 a further 6 coaches will be transferred to Aircoach from First's former National Express fleet in the UK.

    Of course it is wiki, so it has to be taken with a grain of salt, but I don't think I could see anyone bothering to fake such an entry.

    Looking at other edits on the same day, I'd guess it is an Aircoach member of staff making these adjustments, another change today also included:
    The Belfast - Dublin service is run by First Northern Ireland on behalf of Aircoach.

    and some other company specific info.

    If these new coaches have toilets on board it is great news. It almost exactly matches what I posted a few days ago, just enough toilet equipped coaches to cover at least the peak services on the Cork route, if not the entire route.

    Perhaps Aircoach can rotate some of their existing coaches back to the UK and onto shorter routes that don't need toilets, thus avoiding the issue of having non performing assets.

    Also this might give some indication of the GoBus service starting soon.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    bk wrote: »
    With this success, I wonder if they might not look for a license for a similar service to Limerick and give it a go. To be honest I think a Limerick route would have made more sense then the new Belfast route.

    With Limerick you have three bus operators and the train, to take on, with Belfast you have two rail monopolies teaming together and two public bus monopolies teaming together. I'm not saying the later is easier to take on however either. There is nowhere near the market for a fifth in Limerick I would suggest, plus Dublin Coach is founded by the ex Aircoach boss, I can't see them competing against each other. Maybe Dublin Coach didn't go tohe airport as they didn't get a license? We don't know.
    Clearly this isn't the case on the Cork route, with very large number of passengers using the service, it takes far too long to board passengers, in particular pre-booked passengers.

    Last time I booked online, it was a pretty simple affair. Give the paper to the driver and he prints a ticket, although it's a while since I've done this getting on in places other than Dublin Airport.
    PS Does anyone know does the Cork bus use the port tunnel or does it go through Drumcondra when heading to the airport?

    It uses the Port Tunnel unless there is traffic congestion or an accident that would make it quicker to go the other way. That is very rare though.
    bk wrote: »
    I think in time, at peak times there maybe need for an extra member of staff at Cork and Westmoreland St, to sell tickets and board passengers before the driver arrives.

    I know they do this at Dublin Airport on the busier departures, and I've also seen it happen on the busier departures at Westmoreland Street, the problem with Cork is there are no offices there, the only offices are in Dublin (HQ) and Belfast (small office desk in Europa)
    A ticket vending machine on Westmoreland St and Cork might also help. Also a barcode/q-code scanner for the ticket machines might help too.

    Never going to happen. Just wouldn't be feasible financially as you'd need someone there to actually make sure it is not destroyed or broke. Plus such a large outlay for the machine, connect it up to the ESB, get the planning permission to put it there, which there is no cat in hells chance of happening.
    But I understand part of the motivation behind the Belfast route, was that most of their staff are based in Belfast and they already have a depot there to. So probably easier to setup.

    Not if you have a lease there that you cannot cancel on the premises, which I suspect is the case. Also wages are lower in Belfast for drivers and staff compared to here, so if they are running all of the Belfast services from Dublin based drivers as it is believed is the case, they're saving a good amount of money in wages to what they will be paying for the same drivers in Dublin. I wouldn't say there are many staff based in Belfast, the office is tiny and is just a shop/office in the Europa Bus Station.
    If these new coaches have toilets on board it is great news. It almost exactly matches what I posted a few days ago, just enough toilet equipped coaches to cover at least the peak services on the Cork route, if not the entire route.

    I wouldn't read too much into it until we have some bigger proof it is actually happening, besides I'm sure Aircoach staff have better thing to do than just simply update pages on Wikipedia.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    devnull wrote: »
    With Limerick you have three bus operators and the train, to take on, with Belfast you have two rail monopolies teaming together and two public bus monopolies teaming together. I'm not saying the later is easier to take on however either. There is nowhere near the market for a fifth in Limerick I would suggest, plus Dublin Coach is founded by the ex Aircoach boss, I can't see them competing against each other. Maybe Dublin Coach didn't go tohe airport as they didn't get a license? We don't know.

    Well to Limerick you have:
    - Dublin Coach, fast service but doesn't go to the Airport
    - BE, slow stopping service
    - JJ Kavanagh, very slow stopping service
    - Kelly Travel once a day service.

    Yes there are more services to Limerick, but there are disjointed and there really looks like a gap in the market for someone to offer a Limerick, Dublin, Dublin Airport direct frequent service.

    I think such a service would kill BE, JJ Kavanagh and Kelly Travel and would give Dublin Coach a strong run for their money. Just like we are seeing in Cork and Galway.

    While there are more people providing services to Limerick, the level of services to Belfast is far higher. You have BE/UL already offering 24 hour service with a very good and competitive timings and now they will be able to respond quickly and adjust their schedule even down further to compete head to head on time with Aircoach.

    I'd imagine competeting head to head with BE/UL is a pretty horrifying prospect, with BE/UL being able to buy top quality new coaches with government money and a massive advertising campaign behind them, plus Europa station. I just can't see the competition in Limerick being harder then all this.

    But perhaps you are correct, maybe Aircaoch don't want to compete with Dublin Coach due to their history. But then I think that is unfortunate as the people of Limerick are missing out on a nice fast service to the airport and a more comprehensive schedule. Hopefully Dublin Coach will extend their service in time.


    devnull wrote: »
    Last time I booked online, it was a pretty simple affair. Give the paper to the driver and he prints a ticket, although it's a while since I've done this getting on in places other than Dublin Airport.

    The driver has to type a long, multi digit code from the booking into the ticket machine before issuing a ticket. Seems to take quiet some time. At least 30 seconds, which might not seem much,but when you are borading 50 passengers, that quickly adds up.


    devnull wrote: »
    I wouldn't read too much into it until we have some bigger proof it is actually happening, besides I'm sure Aircoach staff have better thing to do than just simply update pages on Wikipedia.

    We will just have to wait and see, but looks like very positive news. Surely only a member of staff would have this information and I doubt anyone would bother to abuse wiki with something like this (but it is possible).


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I just wanted to say, I know it might seem I'm very critical of this service, but on the contrary I love it, I think it is a great service, with just a little bit of tweaking could be superb.

    I think these new fast direct bus services are the biggest break through in public transport in 20 years.

    They are opening up all sort of fantastic opportunities for people to quickly and cheaply move between our cities and at almost any hour.

    For example, as a Corkonian living in Dublin, I use to head down once a month. I've worked out it cost €110 with the train + 2 taxis to and from the train station [1].

    Now it costs me just €25.40 (€22 bus return + two €1.70 Dublin Bus tickets).

    So before I could only afford to go down once a month. Now I can afford to go down every weekend and still save money!! I wont do that, both I am going down every second week now :)

    Also I find the journey takes one hour less due to the more central location [2].

    Then there is the incredible flexibility of the hours they now serve. Before it was constraining due to the schedules of BE and IR. If there was something on in Dublin Friday night, I'd have to wait until Saturday morning and get the train then, losing a lot of the day. Now I've the flexibility to stay in Dublin Friday night and then get a bus to Cork at 1am. Likewise I can now stay in Cork late Sunday, get a late bus to Dublin and still be home in time to get a little sleep and up in time for work Monday morning :)

    Another example is a friend who yesterday decided last minute to head to the Red Hot Chilli Peppers concert. She got that bus up and back down on the same day. That was only possible because of the cheap €22 ticket, quick journey time and late night services. This would never been possible for her with either BE or IR.

    Also I have other friends who have come visit me over the last few weeks on this service who never did before because IR was too expensive and BE too slow.

    So I have to say this new service is turning into a complete revolution and I love it.

    That is why I'm being critical, because I would like to see the service be the best it can be and become as successful as possible.

    [1] Yes I could take two buses (Hueston to town and town out) instead of a taxi. However I find traffic bad at rush hour on a Friday evening and dragging bags on and off two buses a bit of a pain, so take the taxi instead. With the Aircoach, my local bus (multiple different routes) literally drops me about 20 meters from the Aircoach stop. So taking the bus is much easier and makes more sense.

    [2] I know this seems surprising, but I use to leave my place at 3:30 to catch the 5pm train. I felt I had to be at the station early due to the extra expense if I missed the train due to traffic getting there. I've no such concerns with the Aircoach. Leave at 4:15, in town by 4:45, jump on the 5pm Aircoach. I don't feel I have to be there early, if I can't get on, our miss it, I can just wait for the 6pm with no financial penalty and anyway, it isn't like there aren't a load of things to do in temple bar for an hour, unlike Hueston.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Latest info on Bus Eireann Cork route:
    http://www.buseireann.ie/news.php?id=1099&month=Jun

    The press release markets it a a cheap, fast and convenient service between Dublin and Cork, however it's slower, more expensive for a return and far less departures than the competition. It is however better than the old service for people in the Town's.

    Also for those who are in the Town's that have been cut, Bus Eireann and the NTA are working on a solution it appears from the Facebook page.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    It states it is faster than the old route 8. It does not mention the competitor service. I'm not really sure where the problem is with that?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,464 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    BE have added similar branding to the new SE buses used for Limerick (route 12) also saying it's "fast" "more direct" (!) and "frequent"...


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    BE have added similar branding to the new SE buses used for Limerick (route 12) also saying it's "fast" "more direct" (!) and "frequent"...

    Well it is all of those compared to the old service, but I wouldn't say every 2 hours was frequent mind, especially with only six services a day.

    What it does show is that Bus Eireann have more of a marketing brain than everyone in Aircoach combined if they've done this on the route 8 vehicles.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    lxflyer wrote: »
    It markets it as faster than the old route 8. It doe not mention the competitor service.

    A nice slight of hand. But I don't think it will make a difference, word of mouth is spreading and if you are going between Cork and Dublin, no point in taking this service.

    At the airport last night and was standing by the Aircoach stand at Terminal 2 for a few minutes.

    Wow Aircaoch really do run a very hectic service with fast turn around and many coaches arriving one after another. Impressive operation.

    There was a member of staff there selling tickets and helping passengers to board. However I noticed him have to turn away a few people and point them off to distant ATM machines as he took cash only!! Much to the bemusement of the foreigners.

    Cash only, how typically Irish.

    I can understand cash only on the bus, while it would be easy to allow credit cards to be taken with 3g enabled credit card machines, it would slow down boarding times even more.

    But really no reason why the fixed ticket desks at Dublin Airport couldn't take credit card. Add an extra surcharge for credit card handling fees if necessary.

    Another option would be for them to use ticket vending machines.

    One other thing I noticed when standing around is that the signs for the aircoach (and other bus companies too) aren't very big or noticeable, a lot of people walking around, two people even asked me where to get the Aircoach from, when I was standing only 15 meters from the stop!

    Also it isn't very clear that you all the different aircoach routes stop at the same stop. Just a little bit more effort with signage could help a lot.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    The public transport infrastructure at Terminal 2 is crap. There is very little that Aircoach or any other operator can do about that. See the below blog entry from an Ex First executive.

    http://leondaniels.blogspot.ie/2011/01/small-place-in-history.html

    The more stops that are leased, the bigger cost. Aircoach have a lot more room at T1 than they have at T2, although even there it can get a little bit hectic at peak times now the Cork services have been moved to there.

    As for the ticket machines, again no doubt it will cost alot of money and people would need to keep an eye on them, and I doubt the benefit will strip out the costs generated by such machines, it'll just add to costs, which are under pressure enough as it is from fuel.

    The city services start at Terminal 1 and then loop around to Terminal 2 whilst the intercity are the opposite way around to make the best use of space as there would not be room to keep all services waiting at one terminal.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    devnull wrote: »
    What it does show is that Bus Eireann have more of a marketing brain than everyone in Aircoach combined if they've done this on the route 8 vehicles.

    Yes, much superior marketing, and non of this "It's Rapid!!" bs.

    Personally if I was Aircoach I would start marketing it as "the fastest service to Cork, just 3 hours".

    Gets across the point that they are the fastest, and also informs people how long it actually takes and how good that is compared to the old buses and train.

    I suppose it isn't surprising that BE's marketing is so good, when you have such a large organisation and a subsidised organisation, it is easy to have a big marketing department.

    Of course it will be important for BE to market this strongly as their product is actually so weak. Marketing is pretty much all they have going for them.

    If I was Aircoach, I would go for the juggler now. Put up billboards with the slogan I mention above right across the street from the BE and IR stations. Also put people with sandwich boards handing out leaflets outside the BE and IR stations.

    Aircoach don't need fancy advertising like BE, they just need more effective advertising.


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