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Alternatives to Catholicism?

  • 18-02-2012 5:30pm
    #1
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    I was born and raised a Catholic like so many others in Ireland. I no longer consider my Catholic and no longer believe in the Catholic Church or want anything to do with them. I have no respect for a Religion that condones pedophillia and covers it up, refuses to allow their priests to have sex with women like normal people yet condones the rape of little Children!!

    I no longer consider myself a Catholic and answered Atheist in last years Census, I do beleive in God and the afterlife but don't need the Criminal Catholic Church to act as a go between for my faith.

    What other Christian religions offer a true alternative to the RCC?


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Comments

  • #2
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I was born and raised a Catholic like so many others in Ireland. I no longer consider my Catholic and no longer believe in the Catholic Church or want anything to do with them. I have no respect for a Religion that condones pedophillia and covers it up, refuses to allow their priests to have sex with women like normal people yet condones the rape of little Children!!

    I no longer consider myself a Catholic and answered Atheist in last years Census, I do beleive in God and the afterlife but don't need the Criminal Catholic Church to act as a go between for my faith.

    What other Christian religions offer a true alternative to the RCC?

    You believe in God and an afterlife but described yourself as an atheist!?

    Without going into the whole child abuse scandal, which has been discussed ad infinitum on the megathread dedicated to that purpose, Christianity is a religion, which is divided into various traditions and denominations. Catholicism is one part of the Christian faith - it isn't accurate to describe other churches as "other Christian religions". Anyway, you could choose to be Orthodox, Church of Ireland, Presbyerian, Methodist, Baptist, Quaker, Pentecostal, Non-denominational...and so on. I'd suggest you read the Bible, do some research, and go along to a service if you find one that might appeal to you. There are a lot of Catholics who are every bit as angry over the scandals in the church as you are, and a lot of decent people in the church, although I have my issues with some of it's teachings. You might want to tone down the rhetoric a notch.


  • #3
    lmaopml
    Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Why did you answer 'Atheist' Stinicker if you believe in God in the census:confused:

    Anyway, sorry to see you having a hard time, lots of us Catholics are having a hard time - However, I will disagree with you that we as Catholics condone the rape of children, but I can see why the scandals can create an inner turmoil.

    - I guess the first thing is to find out what you actually do believe and why for yourself, especially as regards Christ being a 'Christian'. There are very many Christian denominations, and then there are non denominational Christians too. It depends I guess on where you see yourself in relation to your faith. Most mainstream groups are represented on this forum - sorry to see you go, but the very best of luck, I hope you find peace.


  • #4
    cristoir
    Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭cristoir


    Try agnostic theism.


  • #5
    Northclare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Northclare


    There are a lot of alternatives to Catholicism.

    A good book to get you started would be Awareness by Anthony De Mellow, he was a Jesuit but in his book Awareness he never preached about the Adversary or fire and brimstone Walking on water is good too.

    John Donoghue Anam Cara is easy on the conscious too .

    I read John Moriarty Books but its heavy going but his writing is outside the box but if you have the eyes to see into the box your in for some surprise.

    John Moriarty has a lecture online called "Prometheus and the Dolphin" Google it :)


  • #6
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I would encourage you to read the Bible, determine what God has said to mankind.

    I would recommend that you start reading Mark's Gospel and ask yourself some questions:

    1) Who is Jesus?
    2) Why did He come?
    3) Why is this important for me to understand this?

    I'd also recommend that you give these audio talks about Christianity a listen and this 6 point explanation of the basics of the Gospel here.

    If you PM me, I'd be happy to recommend some churches in your local area, and I'd be happy to give you ideas about trying to find out more about Jesus in His word. If you get in touch with me also, I'd be happy to send you a Bible free of charge.

    If you want an introduction to Jesus, go straight to the Bible, and if you are going to go to church eventually, find a church that focuses on the Bible. IMO, it doesn't particularly matter what denomination you choose as long as you believe and trust in Jesus.


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  • #7
    FoxT
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,204 ✭✭✭FoxT


    I, too, was raised a Catholic but at this stage I no longer regard myself as one. There used to be a way of 'signing out'of Catholicism, but I think that avenue no longer exists. If anybody has a link, let me know!

    I believe that all organised religions are fundamentally political in nature. The Catholic church is particularly sensitive politically, and as an organisation political issues are much higher on their priority list than spiritual issues. Jews, Muslims, protestants, are also driven politically, and while I haven't done the PhD thesis on this I do believe that at bottom the driving forces behind organised religion is political rather than spiritual.

    For example, the Catholic church is only now responding to child abuse issues for political reasons.

    So, to answer your question - there is NO religion that offers a true alternative - because all are political organisations.

    -FoxT


  • #8
    gammygils
    Registered Users Posts: 17,222 ✭✭✭✭gammygils


    Form your own religon! Call it what you like. You might even make a few quid if you do it right.


  • #9
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    OP, you are basing your faith on sinners in the Church and not by what it teaches. Sure you'll find bad eggs everywhere, and in ALL religions. My faith is based on what the Church TEACHES and not by the wrongs some of the clergy did. Did Jesus pick out saints for his disciples, no he didn't, St. Augustine himself was a sinner who became saint!

    The CC TODAY is not the same as it was 40, 30, or even 10 years ago. Many of it's abusers have been defrocked and Bishops replaced, and new polices in place, yet the tares and the wheat must grow together until harvest time.

    Sure some will abandon the Church for whatever reasons, but Jesus said He never will. The Holy Spirit has guided her from crisis to crisis for 2000 years and she is still here and always will be.


  • #10
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,659 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Logically for the OP, he/she should compare and contrast the RC with alternatives. Taking a detached view, ask how the alternatives compare in the historical sense in regard people, doctrines spiritual life and societal impact.
    At the days end in light of the problems experienced in Ireland, the Church is composed of saints and sinners, with emphasis purely on the latter provides an imbalanced view.


  • #11
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I was born and raised a Catholic like so many others in Ireland. I no longer consider my Catholic and no longer believe in the Catholic Church or want anything to do with them. I have no respect for a Religion that condones pedophillia and covers it up, refuses to allow their priests to have sex with women like normal people yet condones the rape of little Children!!

    I no longer consider myself a Catholic and answered Atheist in last years Census, I do beleive in God and the afterlife but don't need the Criminal Catholic Church to act as a go between for my faith.

    What other Christian religions offer a true alternative to the RCC?

    The first question to ask yourself is if you ever believed in the doctrines of the Catholic church. You say you were born and raised Catholic but that of course doesn't have anything to do with whether you actually believed. There are plenty of Catholic web sites that can give you summaries of the core beliefs of Catholicism. Or you could talk to a priest.

    If you did then the next question to ask is if the recent scandals are actually relevant to these beliefs. While I think all have been disgusted by the behavior of the Church hierarchy with relation to sexual abuse, you have to ask does this actually alter the core beliefs of the Church. Rejecting something you actually believe in just because others who claim to share that belief acted badly is a bit silly. I'm an atheist, the fact that Stalin was as well has no effect on my beliefs :) If the scandals have changed your beliefs with regard to the core beliefs of the Catholic church then obviously you are no longer a believing Catholic.

    If you didn't ever really believe in the Catholic church then you were never a Catholic to begin with. Either way the next question is if you were ever a Christian to being with? You should study the beliefs common to all Christian denominations and if match what you believe (it is a bit more than God exists and there is an afterlife) then the next step would be to study the differences and decide which is closest to your personal interpretation of the Bible.

    If you find nothing in Christianity that you believe, yet still believe in a god and an afterlife perhaps other religions would be worth exploring.


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  • #12
    Adamas
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 66 ✭✭Adamas


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I was born and raised a Catholic like so many others in Ireland. I no longer consider my Catholic and no longer believe in the Catholic Church or want anything to do with them. I have no respect for a Religion that condones pedophillia and covers it up, refuses to allow their priests to have sex with women like normal people yet condones the rape of little Children!!

    I no longer consider myself a Catholic and answered Atheist in last years Census, I do beleive in God and the afterlife but don't need the Criminal Catholic Church to act as a go between for my faith.

    What other Christian religions offer a true alternative to the RCC?

    Yours is a very common problem, for reasons that many will understand without having to go through the details, as you know them already.

    You might think of doing some research into the origins of what is today called Christianity, as there are now approx. 30,000 denominations of one sort or another, all varying in degree of what they think is real as regards Jesus and his life's work.
    After that, if it still doesn't make sense to you, maybe take a time out to not decide anything, and see where things lead you, as you might just find what you never expected.


  • #13
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Zombrex: Even if the OP wasn't a Christian to begin with, that doesn't mean that he mightn't be interested in finding out about it.

    FoxT: The OP seems to be about Christian alternatives to the RCC, I think we should try and help the OP in this rather than saying not to bother surely?


  • #14
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Christian Churches in Ireland.

    Baptist Church.
    Church of Ireland/
    Evangelical.
    Methodist.
    Plymouth Brethren.
    Presbyterian.
    Quaker/Friends.
    Roman Catholic.

    Obviously Roman Catholic being the dominant Church in the ROI, but seeing as you have disowned it I have crossed it out for you :))


  • #15
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Christian Churches in Ireland.

    Baptist Church.
    Church of Ireland/
    Evangelical.
    Methodist.
    Plymouth Brethren.
    Presbyterian.
    Quaker/Friends.
    Roman Catholic.



    Obviously Roman Catholic being the dominant Church in the ROI, but seeing as you have disowned it I have crossed it out for you :))


    Lumping "Evangelical" into one grouping is a bit silly... There are a lot of different Evangelical denominations, the major (Pentecostal) ones being Assemblies of God, Church of God, Vineyard, Elim, Plumbline (not techincally a denomination), etc... And the the other non-pentecostal ones...


  • #16
    Doc Farrell
    Registered Users Posts: 2,882 ✭✭✭Doc Farrell


    Northclare wrote: »
    There are a lot of alternatives to Catholicism.

    A good book to get you started would be Awareness by Anthony De Mellow, he was a Jesuit but in his book Awareness he never preached about the Adversary or fire and brimstone Walking on water is good too.

    John Donoghue Anam Cara is easy on the conscious too .

    I read John Moriarty Books but its heavy going but his writing is outside the box but if you have the eyes to see into the box your in for some surprise.

    John Moriarty has a lecture online called "Prometheus and the Dolphin" Google it :)

    I like where you are going with these names, I even like that you renamed de Mello as De Mellow! A typing faux pas! :)

    De Mello was of course, as you say, a Jesuit and very much in demand as a Catholic retreat director. A wonderful human being. He got into a bit of hot water with more traditional Catholics, as the Franciscan Fr Richard Rohr might be considered doing...

    There is another Jesuit called Paul Coutinho who seems to be very much like de Mello, he's even part Indian. He will be giving a series of talks in Ireland on the subject of his new book 'How big is your God?' he will in the Jesuit church in Gardiner street on March 2nd at 7.30pm.
    Fr. Coutinho, as a professor in Georgetown must be considered a big gun in the Jesuits, if that image is not heretical! I'm guessing he would be happy to answer any theological question anyone here might have.

    Incidentally Fr. Gerard Manley Hopkins knew this church well, as a Jesuit, and his sense of God was certainly greater than mine or most people I know!

    The crimes and mistakes of some of the Catholic hierarchy have been extremely painful for ordinary Catholics but as Zombrex says these car crashes to our attention can be a good time to really investigate what God and Catholicism really mean.
    Whatever you decide to do, OP, just take your time.


  • #17
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Christian Churches in Ireland.

    Baptist Church.
    Church of Ireland/
    Evangelical.
    Methodist.
    Plymouth Brethren.
    Presbyterian.
    Quaker/Friends.
    Roman Catholic.

    Obviously Roman Catholic being the dominant Church in the ROI, but seeing as you have disowned it I have crossed it out for you :))

    No mention of the Unitarians or the Lutherans either? For shame.


  • #18
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Christian Churches in Ireland.

    Baptist Church.
    Church of Ireland/
    Evangelical.
    Methodist.
    Plymouth Brethren.
    Presbyterian.
    Quaker/Friends.
    Roman Catholic.

    Obviously Roman Catholic being the dominant Church in the ROI, but seeing as you have disowned it I have crossed it out for you :))

    The Redeemed Christian Church of God (a Nigerian Church) is the third largest denomination in the Irish Republic. Not pale enough for that list? :)


  • #19
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    philologos wrote: »
    Zombrex: Even if the OP wasn't a Christian to begin with, that doesn't mean that he mightn't be interested in finding out about it.

    I didn't say he wouldn't, in fact I suggested he find out about common Christian beliefs and see if he believes in any of them.

    Ultimately it comes down to what the OP believes, not what various Catholic priests did or didn't do.


  • #20
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    No mention of the Unitarians or the Lutherans either? For shame.

    Easy on chaps, is was just a brief list off the top of my head.
    Seaneh wrote: »
    Lumping "Evangelical" into one grouping is a bit silly... There are a lot of different Evangelical denominations, the major (Pentecostal) ones being Assemblies of God, Church of God, Vineyard, Elim, Plumbline (not techincally a denomination), etc... And the the other non-pentecostal ones...

    Dear Lord you lot are picky, I just inserted Evangelical so that it was on the list (off the top of my head), to be honest there are sooo many variations of so many denominations that you cuold be here all day sifting them out, then some bright spark will point out that I left out the lesser know 'Assembly of unorthodox brethern of outer mongolia' or some such . . . If somebody wants to makle a comprehensive list of every single variation of every single denomination then be my guest, and make sure not to leave one out :)


  • #21
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    PDN wrote: »
    The Redeemed Christian Church of God (a Nigerian Church) is the third largest denomination in the Irish Republic. Not pale enough for that list? :)

    Are you being serious?


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  • #22
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Id recommend the Oriental Orthodox who are very traditional but without the fanaticism you can find in Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy; but if you believe the sacraments are valid in the RCC why leave?


  • #23
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Are you being serious?

    About it being the third largest church in the State? Absolutely. They have well over 100 congregations & at least 20,000 members in Ireland, and have gathered 10,000 at one single meeting in Dublin. The same denomination, back in Nigeria, gather over 3.5 million each year for their annual Prayer Conference and have a building just outside Lagos that seats 1 million people (I've visited this and seen it with my own eyes).

    About them being too pale to be on Lord Sutch's list? No, that was a little joke about how ethnocentric we tend to be here so as to miss out on huge social phenomena occurring under our very noses.


  • #24
    Cardinal Richelieu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Cardinal Richelieu


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Christian Churches in Ireland.

    Baptist Church.
    Church of Ireland/
    Evangelical.
    Methodist.
    Plymouth Brethren.
    Presbyterian.
    Quaker/Friends.
    Roman Catholic.

    Obviously Roman Catholic being the dominant Church in the ROI, but seeing as you have disowned it I have crossed it out for you :))

    Coptic Church? Various Greek/Russian/Syrian Orthodox Churches


  • #25
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,014 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I was born and raised a Catholic like so many others in Ireland. I no longer consider my Catholic and no longer believe in the Catholic Church or want anything to do with them. I have no respect for a Religion that condones pedophillia and covers it up, refuses to allow their priests to have sex with women like normal people yet condones the rape of little Children!!

    I no longer consider myself a Catholic and answered Atheist in last years Census, I do beleive in God and the afterlife but don't need the Criminal Catholic Church to act as a go between for my faith.

    What other Christian religions offer a true alternative to the RCC?
    Well, a great deal depends on what you intend by the word “true” there.

    In one sense, all the non-Catholic Christian churches are “true” alternatives to Catholicism; i.e. they are truly not Catholic, but something else. But you may intend a narrower sense, a church whose teachings are true as opposed to a church whose teachings are in error. And that of course raises the question of what you thinks is true.

    In your post you don’t say much about what you are looking for in a church, or indeed why you feel the need for church membership at all. (Though you obviously do feel that need, as otherwise you wouldn’t be asking.) You mainly talk about why you are disenchanted with the Catholic church, and that focuses on the failings of the insitution and its hierarchy.

    You don’t suggest that you have any great beef with the beliefs of the Catholic church - creation, the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Resurrection, Salvation and so forth - or with its worship.

    Based on this, my suggestion would be that you should start your search with Christian traditions that are close to, but distinct from, Catholicism. The closest would be Orthodox Christianity and Anglicanism and, of those two, Anglicanism has by far the larger presence in Ireland, and is therefore more accessible (though of course this depends to some extent on where you live). In those churches you’ll find a form of Christian teaching and Christian living that will be not completely unfamiliar to you, and you’ll be able to prayerfully engage with and reflect on that without seeing it through the filter of your rage and disgust at the failings of the Catholic hierarchy. You may well decided to move on from that starting point and explore other Christian communities, but if you do it should be on the basis of positive ideas about what you are looking for, rather than negative ideas about what you are recoiling from.

    In the end, to participate happily in any Christian church, you’re going to need to find something stronger than “it’s not Catholic” as the basis of your commitment. And we can’t tell you what that should be; you have to work it out for yourself. Leaving the Catholic church may just be clearing the air, so to speak, so that you can tackle that issue.


  • #26
    Northclare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Northclare


    Im still making my mind up about my spiritual beliefs but for me it all boils down to having peace of mind,helping other's being there for family and friends and not beating the ****e out myself in my head because things don't go my way.

    Atheists and God heads can both live that way one day at a time.

    It's a life time job :)


  • #27
    Adamas
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 66 ✭✭Adamas


    Northclare wrote: »
    Im still making my mind up about my spiritual beliefs but for me it all boils down to having peace of mind,helping other's being there for family and friends and not beating the ****e out myself in my head because things don't go my way.

    Atheists and God heads can both live that way one day at a time.

    It's a life time job :)

    Well, at least you are clear about what you are looking for, as many people lurch from one faith to another to just find that they are different shades of the same thing.
    The only difference you will find between two individuals or groups, is attitude, so maybe look for something that you don't feel uncomfortable with and doesn't seek to shoehorn you into stuff that goes against your sense of reason and balance? You seem to want something 'practical', but I don't really know how you can reconcile that with belief systems, as they are very often based on acceptance without question, elaboration and ritual.


  • #28
    Florence Old-fashioned Ace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭ Florence Old-fashioned Ace


    PDN wrote: »
    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Are you being serious?

    About it being the third largest church in the State? Absolutely. They have well over 100 congregations & at least 20,000 members in Ireland, and have gathered 10,000 at one single meeting in Dublin. The same denomination, back in Nigeria, gather over 3.5 million each year for their annual Prayer Conference and have a building just outside Lagos that seats 1 million people (I've visited this and seen it with my own eyes).

    About them being too pale to be on Lord Sutch's list? No, that was a little joke about how ethnocentric we tend to be here so as to miss out on huge social phenomena occurring under our very noses.
    Just don't sit near the amplifiers or else bring some industrial ear plugs.
    Sat through 3 hours and was almost deaf going home. :)


  • #29
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I was born and raised a Catholic like so many others in Ireland. I no longer consider my Catholic and no longer believe in the Catholic Church or want anything to do with them. I have no respect for a Religion that condones pedophillia and covers it up, refuses to allow their priests to have sex with women like normal people yet condones the rape of little Children!!

    I no longer consider myself a Catholic and answered Atheist in last years Census, I do beleive in God and the afterlife but don't need the Criminal Catholic Church to act as a go between for my faith.

    What other Christian religions offer a true alternative to the RCC?

    1. There is only One christian religion. You may mean denomination?

    2. You are basing your position on a false premise since the Roman church never condoned or cover up pedophilia. Over the last century out of maybe a hundred thousand maybe ten or twenty bishops (and I have only even seen evidence of of maybe five in spite of wall to wall accusations) actually "covered up" pedophile priests. Even in those cases they did react to it even if their actions were the wrong thing to do. I am not aware of any Vatican involvement in any "cover up" nor has any been shown. the church has always opposed the rape of children and never condoned it to my knowledge

    3. Other christian denomination have non celibacy. some even have celibate monks and and married priests e.g. Orthodox christians. Buddhist monks are also celibate. Have you no time for their monks also? do you believe the Deli Lama is evil?

    4. It is interesting to note you still believe in God or Christ but put "atheist" down in the census. This actually thwarts the atheists here who claim their statistics are on the rise. It may be disinterested non atheists are declaring atheist.


  • #30
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I was born and raised a Catholic like so many others in Ireland. I no longer consider my Catholic and no longer believe in the Catholic Church or want anything to do with them. I have no respect for a Religion that condones pedophillia and covers it up, refuses to allow their priests to have sex with women like normal people yet condones the rape of little Children!!

    I no longer consider myself a Catholic and answered Atheist in last years Census, I do beleive in God and the afterlife but don't need the Criminal Catholic Church to act as a go between for my faith.

    What other Christian religions offer a true alternative to the RCC?

    To be a Christian you have to be able to love and forgive. Like it or not that means loving Catholics, paedophiles, and Catholic paedophiles, amongst others - the anti-semites, murderers, abortionists, rapists, pornographers, drug dealers, politicians, atheists, adulterers, thieves, robbers, muggers, parking attendents, tax collectors, clampers, flamers... the list is virtually endless as it encompasses every human who ever lived.

    Now, you don't have to like them, and you don't have to hang out with them, though if you feel like visiting those in prison you're more than welcome, but you do have to be able to forgive them.

    Can you do that?

    No need to elaborate, yes or no will do, and we can take it from there.

    + Domino optimo maximo


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  • #31
    Northclare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Northclare


    Someone once told me, you could always pray for the Oops! I used a word that is contrary to the Charter

    And thank God your not like all those sick Oops! I did it again!


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