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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

  • 16-08-2013 11:44pm
    #1
    InchicoreDude
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭


    Welcome to the Waterford GAA discussion thread.

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    So be civil to each other and happy posting.
    Motivator wrote: »
    What a ridiculous comment, these players are on the Waterford panel because they're the best players in the county. Michael Ryan's job is to pick the best players available to him, against Clare he did that & yet you're blaming him because the players he picked couldn't score on the day? What a bull**** argument. Against Clare it just didn't happen on the day for Waterford, & I suppose you're going to blame Michael Ryan for Moran's U12 primary game type error that led to the 2nd Clare goal are you?

    I dont know enough about the ins and outs of the Waterford situation so the following is my opinion not specific to Waterford!

    However, I do find it an easy way out for some managers when they say "Players hit wides and I cant control that". I remember Brian Kerr had a similar defence whe he said it wasnt his fault that John O'Shea made a mistake in a match against Israel. But yes, managers do have to take some responsibility for players of this standard making mistakes. Sure, mistakes will always happen and players will always hit wides. But a part of the managers job is to encourage his players, build confidence in players, get the player playing at the top of their game. When they do this, the player will make less mistakes.

    So a manager has to accept some responsibility for how a player performs. And how his team performs.


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Comments

  • #2
    seananigans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭seananigans


    InchicoreDude wrote: »
    I dont know enough about the ins and outs of the Waterford situation so the following is my opinion not specific to Waterford!

    However, I do find it an easy way out for some managers when they say "Players hit wides and I cant control that". I remember Brian Kerr had a similar defence whe he said it wasnt his fault that John O'Shea made a mistake in a match against Israel. But yes, managers do have to take some responsibility for players of this standard making mistakes. Sure, mistakes will always happen and players will always hit wides. But a part of the managers job is to encourage his players, build confidence in players, get the player playing at the top of their game. When they do this, the player will make less mistakes.

    So a manager has to accept some responsibility for how a player performs. And how his team performs.


    yes a wide, but 15 of them ?


  • #3
    Mountainlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    InchicoreDude wrote: »
    I dont know enough about the ins and outs of the Waterford situation so the following is my opinion not specific to Waterford!

    However, I do find it an easy way out for some managers when they say "Players hit wides and I cant control that". I remember Brian Kerr had a similar defence whe he said it wasnt his fault that John O'Shea made a mistake in a match against Israel. But yes, managers do have to take some responsibility for players of this standard making mistakes. Sure, mistakes will always happen and players will always hit wides. But a part of the managers job is to encourage his players, build confidence in players, get the player playing at the top of their game. When they do this, the player will make less mistakes.

    So a manager has to accept some responsibility for how a player performs. And how his team performs.

    I think emotions got the better of him at times last night, but it's understandable the way he was treated. He didn't say that after they lost to Clare that it was all their fault, so I reckon he's just very upset.


  • #4
    varberg
    Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭varberg


    Im not from waterford but they looked to be making progress. I thought waterford played better hurling this year than the last few years, i thought ryan was an excellent manager working with limited resources. They were an honest hardworking team and were improving all along. i think they would have had a better chance going into next year by keeping a steady ship and putting their head down and working hard all winter rather than getting rid of the manager that was improving them. It changes the focus of the players energy too.

    Im sure the players had their reasons but it could also seem like an immature decision. They could easily have got to a league final this year as they lost a couple of games by a couple of points and they had every chance of going a round further in the championship had their forwards kept their nerve. They had players injured too. Now rather than getting their gym programmes and their manager planning with trainers and putting things in place over the winter there will be upheaval and a differant focus which will take a while for the muddy waters to clear and a new manager to settle in and in a couple of years stamp his mark on the team. It nearly always takes new managers time to settle in with a new team.

    I would have had waterford as having a chance to win a title next year and no one wanting to draw them in the championship next year but now with the new landscape in munster all teams will be mad to draw waterford. It will take another two or so years of rebuilding now and they have to start from a differant place in the pecking order now too.

    Id like to see waterford doing well and winning all irelands but you need a stable environment to do that.

    It would be great for the county if their minors won the all ireland they have some great players like bennett, gleeson and one or two others and they will be main players for the county in a few years. Success at schools level was important for waterford too and it would be good to see an all ireland hurling title going to a new county for a change. Would like to see them or limerick win the minors this year.


  • #5
    Motivator
    Registered Users Posts: 2,739 ✭✭✭Motivator


    InchicoreDude wrote: »

    So a manager has to accept some responsibility for how a player performs. And how his team performs.

    So Brian Cody should take responsibility for Shefflin getting the red card? Or Michael Ryan should take responsibility for Paidi Prendergast not going for the point in the last few seconds against KK? Come off it, if a player is picked to play then it is up to him to do the best he can on the pitch, the manager cannot control everything. Do you think if Flynn's free against Cork had gone wide or been saved in the Munster final in 04 that Justin McCarthy would have taken the blame?! Ridiculous argument.

    It isn't as if Michael Ryan went into the exchange on ballybricken & picked 15 fellas to turn up & play a game. Any fella on the panel should be able to pick off a score from 25 yards out, just because it didn't happen Michael Ryan can't be blamed, just like Cody can't be blamed for what shefflin did.


  • #6
    InchicoreDude
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭InchicoreDude


    Mountainlad wrote: »
    I think emotions got the better of him at times last night, but it's understandable the way he was treated. He didn't say that after they lost to Clare that it was all their fault, so I reckon he's just very upset.

    Yeah, that's true in fairness.


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  • #7
    doz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 248 ✭✭doz


    Liberty Way wrote: »
    All ye Waterford hurling fans in the know is there any truth in Mullane sustaining a serious injury this evening in the game v Lismore???:eek: :eek:

    Only saw a brief report on scoring, goes without saying that I hope it is not serious.


  • #8
    InchicoreDude
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭InchicoreDude


    Motivator wrote: »
    So Brian Cody should take responsibility for Shefflin getting the red card? Or Michael Ryan should take responsibility for Paidi Prendergast not going for the point in the last few seconds against KK? Come off it, if a player is picked to play then it is up to him to do the best he can on the pitch, the manager cannot control everything. Do you think if Flynn's free against Cork had gone wide or been saved in the Munster final in 04 that Justin McCarthy would have taken the blame?! Ridiculous argument.

    It isn't as if Michael Ryan went into the exchange on ballybricken & picked 15 fellas to turn up & play a game. Any fella on the panel should be able to pick off a score from 25 yards out, just because it didn't happen Michael Ryan can't be blamed, just like Cody can't be blamed for what shefflin did.

    But a managers role extends beyond just picking the team. Surely somebody called Motivator should understand that! :D

    As I said, players will always make mistakes. However, mistakes are less likely when a player is at the top of his game. A big part of the manager's job is to get a player performing at that level.

    Again, I am not being specific on Ryan here. I dont know enough about Waterford hurling. But I just dont like a managers excuse "Its not my fault if a player hits a wide". That excuse is only partially true.


  • #9
    Thinkstoomuch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Thinkstoomuch


    InchicoreDude wrote: »
    I dont know enough about the ins and outs of the Waterford situation so the following is my opinion not specific to Waterford!

    However, I do find it an easy way out for some managers when they say "Players hit wides and I cant control that". I remember Brian Kerr had a similar defence whe he said it wasnt his fault that John O'Shea made a mistake in a match against Israel. But yes, managers do have to take some responsibility for players of this standard making mistakes. Sure, mistakes will always happen and players will always hit wides. But a part of the managers job is to encourage his players, build confidence in players, get the player playing at the top of their game. When they do this, the player will make less mistakes.

    So a manager has to accept some responsibility for how a player performs. And how his team performs.


    Im the same view.Some managers blame the players,to take the heat off.

    Counihan blamed the players for not playing what was in front of them against kerry.He failed to answer why he played a midfielder at Cf,or got so many match ups wrong.

    Pat kenneally our minor manager,said that if a players plays two bad games,hes a bad player.Nothing about he having two years in charge,with awful results.
    And to say that about minors,young lads is wrong.
    I have seen it Cork many a time,where poor managers blamed the players,yet better managers got more from them.
    A manager can make or break a team to an extent.I dont know what went on in Waterford,but like you agree a manager must take some responsibilty.
    A good game to prove your point was the u21 game v tipp.

    Coughlan,joyce ,lehane were made look poor in a cork team,that the writing was on the wall ,once Fitzgerald was in charge,yet against KK and Dublin ,in a step up in level,were much better,as they had a belief under JBM, they never,had at U21.

    A clear difference in good and poor managers.


  • #10
    doz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 248 ✭✭doz


    Thinkstoomuch wrote: »
    Im the same view.Some managers blame the players,to take the heat off.

    Counihan blamed the players for not playing what was in front of them against kerry.He failed to answer why he played a midfielder at Cf,or got so many match ups wrong.

    Pat kenneally our minor manager,said that if a players plays two bad games,hes a bad player.Nothing about he having two years in charge,with awful results.
    And to say that about minors,young lads is wrong.
    I have seen it Cork many a time,where poor managers blamed the players,yet better managers got more from them.
    A manager can make or break a team to an extent.I dont know what went on in Waterford,but like you agree a manager must take some responsibilty.
    A good game to prove your point was the u21 game v tipp.

    Coughlan,joyce ,lehane were made look poor in a cork team,that the writing was on the wall ,once Fitzgerald was in charge,yet against KK and Dublin ,in a step up in level,were much better,as they had a belief under JBM, they never,had at U21.

    A clear difference in good and poor managers.

    To come back to something another poster said earlier, I don't think Cork are far ahead of us, if at all, but the influence JBM has on that panel has given some fairly ordinary players an incredible amount of belief and has raised their performances by some 20% I would say. But JBM is a legend (and a gentleman I might add) and I don't think we can compare Michael Ryan to him. The fact is that we have never produced a manager as good as JBM in Waterford and he is a once in a generation manager. It's like Brian Cody, it's unreasonable to expect others to get to that standard or be held to it in such a short space of time.


  • #11
    Mountainlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    doz wrote: »
    To come back to something another poster said earlier, I don't think Cork are far ahead of us, if at all, but the influence JBM has on that panel has given some fairly ordinary players an incredible amount of belief and has raised their performances by some 20% I would say. But JBM is a legend (and a gentleman I might add) and I don't think we can compare Michael Ryan to him. The fact is that we have never produced a manager as good as JBM in Waterford and he is a once in a generation manager. It's like Brian Cody, it's unreasonable to expect others to get to that standard or be held to it.

    Belief has a lot to do with it as well though. His players despite missing Paudi O Sullivan, Niall McCarthy, Sean Og, Cahalane, Cadogan, Sweetnam etc believed they could still win every game they played when it came to the championship, having been relegated. He is an incredible manager.

    But though I doubt it was Cork's plan, they were able to relegated in the league without really an awful lot of flack being directed Barry-Murphy's way. There plan was to peak for championship.

    If Michael Ryan had overseen a Waterford side that were relegated, he would have been ousted on the spot. Makes a big difference.


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  • #12
    Thinkstoomuch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Thinkstoomuch


    doz wrote: »
    To come back to something another poster said earlier, I don't think Cork are far ahead of us, if at all, but the influence JBM has on that panel has given some fairly ordinary players an incredible amount of belief and has raised their performances by some 20% I would say. But JBM is a legend (and a gentleman I might add) and I don't think we can compare Michael Ryan to him. The fact is that we have never produced a manager as good as JBM in Waterford and he is a once in a generation manager. It's like Brian Cody, it's unreasonable to expect others to get to that standard or be held to it in such a short space of time.
    id agree,squad wise and player wise,we are on par with waterford,at the start of the year.

    Jbm has improved us no end,and is a huge huge reason with ger cunnigham in the coaching,that we are we are.
    Were a pale shadow of that team now.


  • #13
    Thinkstoomuch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Thinkstoomuch


    Mountainlad wrote: »
    Belief has a lot to do with it as well though. His players despite missing Paudi O Sullivan, Niall McCarthy, Sean Og, Cahalane, Cadogan, Sweetnam etc believed they could still win every game they played when it came to the championship, having been relegated.. He is an incredible manager.

    But though I doubt it was Cork's plan, they were able to relegated in the league without really an awful lot of flack being directed Barry-Murphy's way. There plan was to peak for championship.

    If Michael Ryan had overseen a Waterford side that were relegated, he would have been ousted on the spot. Makes a big difference.
    No the plan was never relegation.

    I and many had questions decisons and panel members etc,but never once did we want him out,as we had a true belief,like he done in 99 and 95, he had with Ger C,what it took to be a manager.


    He was never under any intense pressure.
    Compared to Denis Walsh,he had a proven record.Walsh only coached yere footballers for a bit.He should never have got the cork job.

    The fact he has had an all star back,and team captain injured ,plus ten of the panel that were in thurles,for the u21 horror show,shows what he has done.

    Win or loose on the 8th ,he is a legend.


  • #14
    lovelypoint
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭lovelypoint


    seananigans wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/hurling/2013/0815/468446-ryan-indicates-he-will-seek-waterford-job/

    go again

    I'm sorry, I just don't see 18 comments reflecting all sides of this, call it the statistician/ analyst in me :) For what its worth, I can see the spectrum of views in this matter, from pro-Ryan to pro-player, and every flavour in between, and don't feel any need to be convinced of the legitimacy or presence of viewpoints on either side of the fence. If anything, seeing the Cork and Limerick strikes unfold, I think we know how divisive and fractious these things can become, so the sooner we can start to begin to draw a line under it all, the better for Waterford. We're already behind the curve and the last thing we need is to further compound that through messes of our own making, like the one at hand.


  • #15
    Hammer Archer
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,383 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hammer Archer


    Old thread reached the post limit so a new thread has been opened.


  • #16
    Mountainlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    New thread, woop woop


  • #17
    lovelypoint
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭lovelypoint


    doz wrote: »
    With respect, any person who believes we had a genuine chance of winning an AI this year is completely deluded. Don't think you'll find many who feel that Cork, Limerick and Clare are inferior sides either. We're not far off them but these teams have been far more clinical in taking their scores when it counted. As has been mentioned several times, Michael Ryan wasn't firing wides to beat the band during the Championship.

    Like it or lump it, any hurling county with ambitions of honours will feel that they would never have had a better chance of an All Ireland, than this year. Bottom line, we simply weren't at the races to be in the mix, and the hard question to be asked, is why were we not.


  • #18
    KevIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 39,494 ✭✭✭✭KevIRL


    New thread, same $hite I fear. The very best of luck to the minors in the AI final, and hopefully we'll also have a thrilling county championship on the field for the rest of the year. I guess I'll chat to the regs on here later in the autumn/winter when things have calmed down


  • #19
    sid wallace
    Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭sid wallace


    seananigans wrote: »
    yes a wide, but 15 of them ?

    Yes it's a shocking indictment of the coaching


  • #20
    boodiebhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭boodiebhoy


    Any updates from club matches last night?


  • #21
    sid wallace
    Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭sid wallace


    Motivator wrote: »
    So Brian Cody should take responsibility for Shefflin getting the red card? Or Michael Ryan should take responsibility for Paidi Prendergast not going for the point in the last few seconds against KK? Come off it, if a player is picked to play then it is up to him to do the best he can on the pitch, the manager cannot control everything. Do you think if Flynn's free against Cork had gone wide or been saved in the Munster final in 04 that Justin McCarthy would have taken the blame?! Ridiculous argument.

    It isn't as if Michael Ryan went into the exchange on ballybricken & picked 15 fellas to turn up & play a game. Any fella on the panel should be able to pick off a score from 25 yards out, just because it didn't happen Michael Ryan can't be blamed, just like Cody can't be blamed for what shefflin did.

    Michael Ryan must take responsibility for an undertrained and under coached Paudie Prendergast being on the field in the first place.


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  • #22
    Deskjockey
    Registered Users Posts: 833 ✭✭✭Deskjockey


    I think that while the players messed up a bit with the timing of this meeting, in general this players meeting was a kind of extreme step and I have to believe wouldn't have been done IMHO unless there was complete and utter frustration with the effectiveness of a setup that was not commensurate with the effort that was being put in. Our best player ( and one who absolutely 'loves me county') withdrawing his services added to the chopping and changing of selectors a couple of times over a relatively short space of time are cold hard facts that do not reflect well on the manager, never mind rumours from time to time about players not being happy with what was going on.

    The fact that the Co Board revealed that Michael Ryan was not going to seek reappointment absolutely straight away, within minutes, after he told them looks to me as if they may have felt that the cause was irretrievable (rather than spending time looking for him to reconsider) and they wanted to ensure that he was gone ASAP.

    I think what's done is done now, and he would be very ill advised to look to come back, I would echo what other posters have said in terms of looking to thank Michael Ryan for all that he has done and the effort that he has put in (free) for the cause, he is a proud Waterford man and earned his shot to manage the senior team, however in life sometimes things don't work out.


  • #23
    Ando's Saggy Bottom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Ando's Saggy Bottom


    KevIRL wrote: »
    New thread, same $hite I fear. The very best of luck to the minors in the AI final, and hopefully we'll also have a thrilling county championship on the field for the rest of the year. I guess I'll chat to the regs on here later in the autumn/winter when things have calmed down
    Ah keep posting Kev. Place will be unbearable if all the sane regulars leave.


  • #24
    doz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 248 ✭✭doz


    lovelypoint wrote: »
    Like it or lump it, any hurling county with ambitions of honours will feel that they would never have had a better chance of an All Ireland, than this year. Bottom line, we simply weren't at the races to be in the mix, and the hard question to be asked, is why were we not.

    Ah anybody can say that with the benefit of hindsight. At the start of the year I think most people would agree that we weren't in the Championship race and that we had new players that needed to be given a chance to get a few games under their belt and establish themselves. That was achieved IMO and those players will be better for it come next year. The year can't have become a failure solely on the basis that the form book for other counties went out the window.


  • #25
    Motivator
    Registered Users Posts: 2,739 ✭✭✭Motivator


    sid wallace wrote: »
    Michael Ryan must take responsibility for an undertrained and under coached Paudie Prendergast being on the field in the first place.

    Haha nice try.


  • #26
    seananigans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭seananigans


    Motivator wrote: »
    Haha nice try.

    why must you respond?


  • #27
    Motivator
    Registered Users Posts: 2,739 ✭✭✭Motivator


    lovelypoint wrote: »
    Like it or lump it, any hurling county with ambitions of honours will feel that they would never have had a better chance of an All Ireland, than this year. Bottom line, we simply weren't at the races to be in the mix, and the hard question to be asked, is why were we not.

    One bad game in 6 months of hurling & Waterford weren't at the races? Come off it, the Clare game is classed as a disaster but only the 2nd half was. Some good hurling was played in the 1st half. Waterford gave everything against kilkenny nobody could have given anymore nor could anyone have done better than the players that played that night. The Offaly & Westmeath games were all about the result not the performance, away qualifier games at small grounds always are. The league this year showed this Waterford team were up for it & there were some very good performances in those games. One bad half against a better Clare team on the day doesn't mean Waterford weren't at the races for the year.

    Jesus this is amazing, 1 month ago Waterford fans were the proudest people in Ireland but now we're crap again all of a sudden? I'm missing something here.


  • #28
    doz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 248 ✭✭doz


    boodiebhoy wrote: »
    Any updates from club matches last night?

    De La Salle beat Lismore by 6 points, Tallow and Ballyduff Upper drew and Fourmilewater defeated an Rinn. The Waterford GAA Twitter page do good updates on championship games, on mobile so can't put up the link but just Google it.

    A poster suggested last night that John Mullane sustained a serious looking injury in that game, any news on that?


  • #29
    kilkennycat2004
    Registered Users Posts: 366 ✭✭kilkennycat2004


    doz wrote: »
    De La Salle beat Lismore by 6 points, Tallow and Ballyduff Upper drew and Fourmilewater defeated an Rinn.

    A poster suggested last night that John Mullane sustained a serious looking injury in that game, any news on that?

    Mullane picked up a hamstring injury in front of the stand, he had scored 1-1 at the time & won a couple of frees.

    On the other topic I hope Michael Ryan continues as WD manager. It seems to myself as an outsider that just because he doesn't chase celebrity status like some of his counterparts he's not trendy enough to continue. Ryan is totally genuine, even down to paying for match programmes at local club games in WD.
    Tell that to Mick O'Dwyer for example!
    The spine was ripped out if the WD team this year & yet they remained competitive under Ryan. Hopefully the clubs will back Michael who has earned a further term in charge.


  • #30
    robopaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭robopaddy


    Thinkstoomuch wrote: »
    Im the same view.Some managers blame the players,to take the heat off.

    Counihan blamed the players for not playing what was in front of them against kerry.He failed to answer why he played a midfielder at Cf,or got so many match ups wrong.

    Pat kenneally our minor manager,said that if a players plays two bad games,hes a bad player.Nothing about he having two years in charge,with awful results.
    And to say that about minors,young lads is wrong.
    I have seen it Cork many a time,where poor managers blamed the players,yet better managers got more from them.
    A manager can make or break a team to an extent.I dont know what went on in Waterford,but like you agree a manager must take some responsibilty.
    A good game to prove your point was the u21 game v tipp.

    Coughlan,joyce ,lehane were made look poor in a cork team,that the writing was on the wall ,once Fitzgerald was in charge,yet against KK and Dublin ,in a step up in level,were much better,as they had a belief under JBM, they never,had at U21.

    A clear difference in good and poor managers.

    To be fair michael ryan probably shouldnt have made the comment that it wasn't the management that hit the 15 wides against clare he was still a bit angry and hurt but he hasnt shunned from his own responsibility either and acknowledged that he too isn't perfect. I don't think he was intentionally trying to blame anybody for losing games either. He was merely trying to make a valid argument that when the players cross the white line its up to themselves after that


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  • #31
    robopaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭robopaddy


    seananigans wrote: »
    why must you respond?

    Look I know this guy is irking you but he is not actually trolling there was a devilish troll here earlier in the week who was dishing out personal abuse to yours truly in particular to the point i actually had to leave for a few days. At the end of the day this lad is just throwing an argument on the table whether its ludicrious or winding people up or watever but everyone is free to debate it if they like if not just ignore it.


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