Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Vuctor · 25-03-2010 2:48pm

Immense technical difficulties?

What track upgrade would be required?

In your expert opinion.

BluntGuy · 25-03-2010 2:56pm

Vuctor wrote: »

Immense technical difficulties?

What track upgrade would be required?

In your expert opinion.

I cannot answer that in detail, no one has yet to carry out a feasability study of upgrading the Luas to Metro.

Investigation would have to be carried out into the curvature of the track, does the track have enough clearance horizontally, what speed limit will the track allow? It is inevitable that to allow MN trams to run optimally on the Luas tracks, upgrades would have to be carried out. The tracks are not designed for Metro, they are designed for Luas. They allow provision to be upgraded to Metro, but they are not Metro standard.

markpb · 25-03-2010 3:20pm

Vuctor wrote: »

luntGuy, what technical difficulties do you imagine in running MN on the LUAS green line?

IIRC It can't handle the increased frequency because of the overhead power system and the four (?) at-grade road junctions. There's also no dedicated turnback facility which would allow trams to operate shorter runs across the core of the city.

Vuctor · 25-03-2010 3:25pm

The track from SSG to Sandyford has already been constructed to take heavy metro trains.

This point illustrates nicely that you you just make it up as you go along.
A fact I'm aware of from the occasional glance I give this forum.

You started off calling for a DART line from SSG to the metropolis of Swords.

MN was chosen beause paring back the cost was essential to get critical mass support for the project.

You must be one of the most uninformed 'experts' one could find.

You might as well call for free rockets for everyone from SSG to Swords.

Just fantasy stuff.

dowlingm · 25-03-2010 3:29pm

Okay - let's get a few things straight.

1. Yes, MetroNorth will likely be built with light metro vehicles and not DARTs. However, sometimes discussion about how existing projects are being or should have been built can inform future projects.

2. Capacity is determined by how many passengers a train can carry and how many trains will operate. Saying "DART is much higher capacity" is rubbish - as I noted above it is not hard to configure a DART consist the same length of the proposed Metro. The mode doesn't matter - what matters is headways (and Metro's is proposed to be 90 seconds!) and passenger floor area/seating configuration of the train. By contrast DART headway at the moment is about 900 seconds, so to provide the same capacity as a 2-vehicle 90m Metro set @ 90sec, you need to run an 8-car 165m DART about every three minutes.

3. Demand depends on where the train is coming from and where it's going. MetroNorth terminating in Lissenhall is not the same as MetroNorth terminating in Donabate, because Donabate opens up the market of people who can't or don't want to drive down the M1. That doesn't mean that you exclude the Lissenhall P/R but it also adds another draw to the Northern Suburban too.

4. I doubt there is any serious intent to hook MetroNorth to Green Line. They will either stay disconnected, with Green Line continued as BX/D or MetroNorth will head south into Terenure. My vote would be for the latter.

markpb · 25-03-2010 3:30pm

Vuctor wrote: »

The track from SSG to Sandyford has already been constructed to take heavy metro trains.This point illustrates nicely that you you just make it up as you go along. A fact I'm aware of from the occasional glance I give this forum.

Tone it down a little.

The only thing that was done to L-G to make it metro compatible was a wider separation between the tracks (not the gauge). This means the 2.6m wide trams could use it as well as the existing 2.4m trams. The same is not possible on the L-R line because the track separation is a lot less. Nothing else was done.

Metro's usually are fully grade separated - L-G is not.
Metro's usually have sufficient power to allow 90 second headways - L-G does not.
Metro's have dedicated turnback facilities (MN will have this in a loop underneath SSG) to allow turnbacks without causing signalling obstructions
Metro's have fully centrally controlled signalling systems - L-G has driver-operated, line of sight signalling.

Son of Stupido · 25-03-2010 3:37pm

The initial scoping study looked at a split at Adelaide road, with a branch going to Terenure and another to the Green line. Tie-ins to the green line were also examined.

The Luas green line rails will be identical to the metro. Only difference is the vehicles for metro will be longer. Same tracks, same wires, same voltage.

An upgrade to metro for the green line will require the obvious tunnel connection (to start at beechwood) and the closing off of some of the level crossings until sandyford. Thats pretty much it.

People might be surprised to know that compatibility was always part of the plan, if not always successfully communicated to the public!

BluntGuy · 25-03-2010 5:40pm

Vuctor wrote: »

The track from SSG to Sandyford has already been constructed to take heavy metro trains.

No it hasn't. SSG - Charlemont is NOT even close to Metro standard for example.

Also, it wouldn't be heavy metro, it would be light metro. :rolleyes:

The platforms are not built to accomodate 90 m trams, it's hard to see how some of them could be extended without some serious work.

The level crossings would have to give Metro FULL priority. Some re-signalling would have to be done.

Luas Green is NOT Metro standard. It is certainly possible to upgrade it... I never once said it was impossible, just not as easy as the RPA love to make it sound.

This point illustrates nicely that you you just make it up as you go along.
A fact I'm aware of from the occasional glance I give this forum.

Not really, no.

You started off calling for a DART line from SSG to the metropolis of Swords.

LOL! I never called Swords a metropolis, please don't put words in my mouth. And actually, my initial speculative proposal may have cut out Swords altogether. I included Swords as a possibility.

You must be one of the most uninformed 'experts' one could find.

Where did I claim to be an expert?

I said I'd read all the documents relating to MN and if people wanted a hand getting a particular piece of information I'd link it to them.

After that it is entirely my opinion, backed up by my own research. It doesn't mean I'm wrong or right, I'm just discussing stuff like everyone else here.

You might as well call for free rockets for everyone from SSG to Swords.

Sure, why not? :pac:

You seem to be getting awfully bothered by a little bit of speculation on my part and some criticism of MN. I mean really, cool the tone down a bit.

dRNk SAnTA · 25-03-2010 6:45pm

http://www.rpa.ie/PublishingImages/Metro%20North/MN%20RO%20OH%203D%20Flash%20Movies%20080409/Metro_North_Final_Animation.swf

For anyone like me who hadn't seen this before, it's a fully animated video that shows the interiors of Stephen's Green station, O'Connell St, Drumcondra, Ballymun, Airport and more.

It's easy to forget how big a project this will be! The stations aren't anything fancy but they do look quite nice. It will be interesting to compare the Dart Underground stations to the RPA stations. As someone else has said, the RPA always do a good job on design, I don't think anyone could say the same for Irish Rail!

Vuctor · 25-03-2010 6:46pm

Instead of wriggling like a scalded pig bluntguy you need to show a bit of humility about the endless spoofing that you consider fact on this forum.

more of a cod than a mod.

eia340600 · 25-03-2010 6:59pm

Just to make a note on a point made quite a few posts ago..

The cost of building a tunnel wide enough for DART trains would be only modestly more expensive than one wide enough for a light metro.You simply use a bigger boring machine
This should have been done so that in 60-70 years, when there might be the capacity requirements, DART standard trains could be run..

Frank McDonald's idea to redesign the entire Metro is only ridiculous because of the cost involved.Not because the Metro has been designed correctly(because it hasn't been).

Vuctor · 25-03-2010 7:21pm

eia340600 wrote: »

Just to make a note on a point made quite a few posts ago..

The cost of building a tunnel wide enough for DART trains would be only modestly more expensive than one wide enough for a light metro.You simply use a bigger boring machine
This should have been done so that in 60-70 years, when there might be the capacity requirements, DART standard trains could be run..

Frank McDonald's idea to redesign the entire Metro is only ridiculous because of the cost involved.Not because the Metro has been designed correctly(because it hasn't been).

I think the cost of DART size tunnels is more than modest but again another post at odds with what actually happened.
The overall cost issue was so critical that on street at Ballymun was planned, and elevated at the airport about 15mins walk from the terminals was also the original design.
Fingal Metropolis had to weigh in with loads of money to even got it to Swords.
Many argued it was too much capacity as a Metro.

A DART from SSG to Balbriggan/Donabate proposal would have sunk with all hands lost.

Amtmann · 25-03-2010 10:13pm

If you don't mind there BluntGuy, Vuctor infracted for being overly abrasive.

BluntGuy · 25-03-2010 10:23pm

Furet wrote: »

If you don't mind there BluntGuy, Vuctor infracted for being overly abrasive.

Be my guest, quite frankly lol

That makes 3 infractions since joining less than a week ago. Not a good start.

That pointless argument was probably getting incredibly irritating for many people viewing this thread.

G_R · 25-03-2010 10:43pm

Vuctor wrote: »

I think the cost of DART size tunnels is more than modest but again another post at odds with what actually happened.
The overall cost issue was so critical that on street at Ballymun was planned, and elevated at the airport about 15mins walk from the terminals was also the original design.
Fingal Metropolis had to weigh in with loads of money to even got it to Swords.
Many argued it was too much capacity as a Metro.

A DART from SSG to Balbriggan/Donabate proposal would have sunk with all hands lost.

now your really talking through your arse

Can I call troll?

Steviemak · 25-03-2010 11:01pm

BluntGuy wrote: »

That pointless argument was probably getting incredibly irritating for many people viewing this thread.

+1 (without being rude:D)

Aard · 25-03-2010 11:49pm

I found the debate quite interesting. It was just the ad hominem remarks that were getting at me.

BluntGuy · 26-03-2010 12:21am

Aard wrote: »

I found the debate quite interesting. It was just the ad hominem remarks that were getting at me.

It started off as a debate, as a discussion, but it was hijacked by rudeness and as you say ad hominem remarks, and it became apparent it was going no-where sadly. I still think Vuctor had and has valid points to offer, but the vitriol with which they are delivered is incredibly frustrating.

I mean, he might well be right. Metro North may well come in under 2 billion, but to suggest that it is "certain" and discredit all other opinion, yet offer no supporting evidence when asked continually is incredibly poor debating.

Anywho, it's dealt with now, so we'll just have to continue with the Metro North discussion and forget about the silliness that has dominated the last 2 pages or so.

fresca · 26-03-2010 9:13am

i remember being at a footie game once and the crowd starting singing "you don't know what you're doing..." at the manager on the sideline.
i'm starting to get that same feeling now!!!

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/green-party-delegates-gather-in-waterford-451427.html

The Green Party is to decide this weekend whether Government should cancel the metro project in Dublin, while the party is also to debate a demand for the property loans of all Oireachtas members to be declared.

Delegates are gathering in Waterford for the Greens' annual national conference this weekend, which comes after the party secured ministries for two-thirds of Green TDs in this week's reshuffle.

Four of the Greens' six TDs are now Ministers in Government.

However a number of contentious motions set for debate at the conference will ensure the mood is not just one of celebration.

One motion to scrap Dublin's metro north and spend the billions on bus transport throughout the country is proposed to be watered down by the leadership.

The party is also proposing new taxes, an end to the teaching of religion in schools, and a requirement that TDs and Senators be required to declare all property loans from financial institutions.

Son of Stupido · 26-03-2010 10:56am

fresca wrote: »

i remember being at a footie game once and the crowd starting singing "you don't know what you're doing..." at the manager on the sideline.
i'm starting to get that same feeling now!!!

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/green-party-delegates-gather-in-waterford-451427.html

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More silliness!!

ciaran75 · 26-03-2010 11:46am

hi guys,

does anyone know what is actually happening with metro north now?

when will all the public hearings etc. be finished with.
any idea what the current timeframe before goes before government to get the final go-ahead.

Cheers,

Yixian · 26-03-2010 3:29pm

Why would a green party prefer masses of buses to an underground?

Many Green TDs have been supporting the metro project to ease traffic and congestion in the city centre and allow for more pedestrianisation.

If the Greens cancelled the Dublin Metro it would be single biggest disaster in HISTORY of Dublin infrastructure, about 100x worse than getting rid of the old trams..

This on the other hand:

The party is also proposing new taxes, an end to the teaching of religion in schools, and a requirement that TDs and Senators be required to declare all property loans from financial institutions.

I can get behind.

markpb · 26-03-2010 3:31pm

Yixian wrote: »

Why would a green party prefer masses of buses to an underground?

I wonder if it's a member of the Green party from outside Dublin who thinks the money would be better spent elsewhere? Can't be having the Dublin government spend all it's money there and all that jazz...

Yixian · 26-03-2010 3:36pm

markpb wrote: »

I wonder if it's a member of the Green party from outside Dublin who thinks the money would be better spent elsewhere? Can't be having the Dublin government spend all it's money there and all that jazz...

The EIB just agreed to put 500m euro towards Metro North, somehow I don't think they're going be happy letting that diffuse out into a few meaningless projects around the country.

markpb · 26-03-2010 3:38pm

Yixian wrote: »

The EIB just agreed to put 500m euro towards Metro North, somehow I don't think they're going be happy letting that diffuse out into a few meaningless projects around the country.

A lot of people who object to Metro North being built in Dublin would rather see the project cancelled entirely and EIBs money ignored than see it all going to Dublin.

spacetweek · 26-03-2010 6:05pm

fresca wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/green-party-delegates-gather-in-waterford-451427.html
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Pity they derailed (excuse pun) their other good suggestions with the ridic one about cancelling the Metro which is now less than a year away from construction.

dr gonzo · 26-03-2010 6:48pm

Sincere apologies to everyone for what will no doubt be a ridiculous question but can someone please give me a brief rundown of this entire project?

I know metro north is only part of it. Then theres mention of an interconnector tunnel and the dart being under the Stephen's green stop. Also the flash video of the MN line showed an extended LUAS green line going NW. This project seems fantastic but i just want to know for sure whats going on.

Cheers everyone.

EDIT: Actually, i'd be interested to know all the Dublin transport plans in case theres some outside of this specific project.

Irish and Proud · 26-03-2010 9:54pm

Maybe postpone (rather than cancel) the metro and get on with the interconnector ASAP. Also, the LUAS should be further developed with an extension of the Green Line to Finglas (entirely via Hawkins Street and Marlbourgh Street in order to avoid the future construction site of Metro North) with a major rail interchange at Liffey Junction. The Lucan Luas should be considered as the Blue Line with some possible modifications of the alignment - lessening the number of sharp curves, at grade crossings etc.

Regarding the Metro North, design work should not stop - this project should be ready to go in light of any reasonable upturn in the economy. The Metro West needs serious upgrading around the Clondalkin area. By the this metro gets underway, it will probably be required as a proper mostly grade seperated metro. Also, the current plan is to cut part of the R113 (north of Newlands X) down to 6.5m in width - not acceptable on a major cross route IMO. The alignment of the Metro West with all the at-grade crossings is not acceptable - they might as well build a LUAS line instead. As for the interchange with the proposed Dart 2 line, it's seems cheap and cheerful with another narrowing of the R113 and a sub-standard interchange for passengers transferring between the Metro West and Dart 2.

Regards!

BluntGuy · 26-03-2010 10:36pm

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Maybe postpone (rather than cancel) the metro and get on with the interconnector ASAP. Also, the LUAS should be further developed with an extension of the Green Line to Finglas (entirely via Hawkins Street and Marlbourgh Street in order to avoid the future construction site of Metro North) with a major rail interchange at Liffey Junction. The Lucan Luas should be considered as the Blue Line with some possible modifications of the alignment - lessening the number of sharp curves, at grade crossings etc.

I would honestly question the viability of the Lucan Luas. I mean, I haven't done quite enough research into that project to really be able to speak with too much confidence, but, with competitive bus options, and considering the alignment, which as you say has quite the number of sharp curves and at grade crossings, it might not be the best use of our limited cash.

Regarding the Metro North, design work should not stop - this project should be ready to go in light of any reasonable upturn in the economy. The Metro West needs serious upgrading around the Clondalkin area. By the this metro gets underway, it will probably be required as a proper mostly grade seperated metro. Also, the current plan is to cut part of the R113 (north of Newlands X) down to 6.5m in width - not acceptable on a major cross route IMO. The alignment of the Metro West with all the at-grade crossings is not acceptable - they might as well build a LUAS line instead. As for the interchange with the proposed Dart 2 line, it's seems cheap and cheerful with another narrowing of the R113 and a sub-standard interchange for passengers transferring between the Metro West and Dart 2.

It's not a Metro, it's Luas, blatantly. The RPA website even says it will be developed similar to Luas, at least initially. I really don't think the project is much of a runner, it looks like one of those routes that looks great on paper, but its actual use is highly questionable.

I would not cancel Metro North at this stage either, too much money has gone into it, and it will make our ability to attract good international bids for tenders much harder in the future if we cancel the project now.

BluntGuy · 26-03-2010 10:48pm

dr gonzo wrote: »

Sincere apologies to everyone for what will no doubt be a ridiculous question but can someone please give me a brief rundown of this entire project?

I know metro north is only part of it. Then theres mention of an interconnector tunnel and the dart being under the Stephen's green stop. Also the flash video of the MN line showed an extended LUAS green line going NW. This project seems fantastic but i just want to know for sure whats going on.

While I'm not a big fan of this site, http://www.transport21.ie outlines many of the basics in a decent enough manner.

The major elements of the Dublin transport public transport development:

-> Metro North - a 19 km "Metro" line running from St.Stephen's Green to north of Swords. It will include stops at locations such as Dublin Airport, DCU, Mater Hospital and Ballymun. Approximately half the line will be in tunnel (between St.Stephen's Green and north of Ballymun, and underneath the Airport).

-> DART Underground or Interconnector - the actual name of the project comes from 7.5 km underground DART standard tunnel that will be constructed between Inchicore and the Docklands. It will have underground stations at Hueston, Christchurch, St. Stephen's Green, Pearse and Docklands. It will run underneath the new Metro line at St.Stephen's Green, thus providing an interchange (also with the Luas Line). Eventually, this, combined with 800 million euro of new rolling stock and electrification of lines leading into Dublin, will leave Dublin with two DART lines as opposed to the current one DART line. This link provides a video as well as information explaining the project.

-> Luas Line BXD - this will extend the Green Luas, as you said North West, so as to provide interchange with the Luas Red Line.

-> Luas Line B1 - this extends to Luas Green Line by 7.5 km towards Cherrywood. It will be complete this year.

-> Luas Line B2 - this will further extend the Luas Green Line to provide a branch to the south of the city and a branch to interchange with DART services at Bray.

I can't remember the other projects off the top of my head, I know there's an extension of the Red Line towards City West under construction, I know the extension of the Red Line to The Point opened last year and there's another Light Rail project called "Metro West" proposed. The Transport21 site has all of these mentioned.

Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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