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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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Comments

  • #3152
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    dvpower wrote: »
    You're sidestepping now Robbie.

    If you were in power with the mandate that the current govenment have, and the restrictions, what would you do?

    Stand by my previous statement about property taxes. But im not mandated. Im on the other side of the fence, having another tax forced upon me.

    Is every member of government in favour of this tax?

    I dont really see the sidestepping. Any alternatives will also be used, if they can.


  • #3153
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    The greeks managed to get 70% of their total debt wiped off the books completely.
    What did Edna manage to get written off ours?


  • #3154
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Ghandee wrote: »
    The greeks managed to get 70% of their total debt wiped off the books completely.
    What did Edna manage to get written off ours?
    Sit Edna......Roll over......Beg......Good boy!:D


  • #3155
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Sit Edna......Roll over......Beg......Good boy!:D


    Enda is probably exempt, as it wont apply to kennels, (yet).


  • #3156
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    It seems the best alternative alright, in terms of a free easy to hit for any amount, tax burden on the same people already paying their taxes. And if/when this comes in, that wont stop the alternatives.

    Its not some untapped tax well they are hitting, its home owners i.e. already tax payers, paying a large amount of income tax just to service their repayments, many of which are in a worse financial position due to owning their home, than others that wont have to pay this tax. This is contrary to the many claims in this thread that this is a wealth tax.
    your objection seems to be that not everybody is paying this tax. Would you prefer if they put vat up by enough to get the expected €160 million? Or do you have another suggestion to raise the money, bearing in mind that this €160 million still leaves us €17.8 billion short every year.

    And if you have a better alternative, why do you think they're not already doing it?


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  • #3157
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Stand by my previous statement about property taxes. But im not mandated.
    But the democratically elected Government are mandated.
    So the question remains - what should the Government do instead of this tax, given their mandate and the restrictions on them?
    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Is every member of government in favour of this tax?
    Yes. At least publicly. There is collective responsibilty so any cabinet member who is against the tax would have to leave Government.


  • #3158
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Ghandee wrote: »
    The greeks managed to get 70% of their total debt wiped off the books completely.
    What did Edna manage to get written off ours?

    Maybe the Greeks had the right idea, kick up murder, riot, burn everything and get a 70% writedown.

    Ireland, just say nothing, keep the head down, say we're so sorry and take whatever crumbs we can get thrown from the table to stop us acting like Greece!


  • #3159
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Ghandee wrote: »
    The greeks managed to get 70% of their total debt wiped off the books completely.
    What did Edna manage to get written off ours?

    Maybe the Greeks had the right idea, kick up murder, riot, burn everything and get a 70% writedown.

    Ireland, just say nothing, keep the head down, say we're so sorry and take whatever crumbs we can get thrown from the table to stop us acting like Greece!
    Tbh that's something else that confuses me. Can you honestly say you really believe that the IMF and EU etc all got together and said to themselves "well we'd really like Greece to pay these debts and we really think there's a possibility of them being able to afford it but some guy out there just turned a car over so we better do what he says"


  • #3160
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Maybe the Greeks had the right idea, kick up murder, riot, burn everything and get a 70% writedown.

    Ireland, just say nothing, keep the head down, say we're so sorry and take whatever crumbs we can get thrown from the table to stop us acting like Greece!

    And to top it off, the greeks were chanting 'were not Ireland!' (in Greek obviously:D) as they protested through Athens.

    A real sense of 'we're not eejits' if you ask me.


    /awaits Ednas defence by one of the sheep.:pac:


  • #3161
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Maybe the Greeks had the right idea, kick up murder, riot, burn everything and get a 70% writedown.

    Ireland, just say nothing, keep the head down, say we're so sorry and take whatever crumbs we can get thrown from the table to stop us acting like Greece!
    You think we should have done like Greece and introduced a property tax collectable via electricity bills? :eek:
    The duty, expected to cost the average household €1,000-€1,500 a year, will apply to anyone with property in Greece. Failure to pay will result in electricity supplies being cut off. Although well received by the country's creditors, it is seen as a desperate measure for desperate times.

    Careful what you wish for.


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  • #3162
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    SamVines, so many questions but no suggestions at all.

    I'll probably get a dose of abuse but sure here goes;

    Why don't we increase our corporation tax rate by 1-2%.
    By my calculations a 1% rise would raise about €313 million or 2% would be €626 million.

    I'm open to correction on these figures, I worked it out from this:


    Year Corporation Tax Total Tax Revenue Total Revenue Reference
    2001 4.16 27.93 28.74 [3] (restated)
    2002 4.80 29.29 31.53 [4]
    2003 5.16 32.10 33.16 [5]
    2004 5.33 35.58 36.38 [6]
    2005 5.49 39.25 39.85 [7]
    2006 6.68 45.54 46.14 [8]
    2007 6.39 47.25 47.89 [9]
    2008 5.07 40.78 41.62 [10]
    2009 3.90 33.04 33.88 [11]
    2010 3.923 31.752 34.44 [12]

    Our corporation tax rate isn't the only reason multinationals come to Ireland.


  • #3163
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    SamVines, so many questions but no suggestions at all.
    My point in this thread was to challenge the notion that the government are evil super villains inflicting pain for no reason, and also to suggest that there are no easy answers to the crisis

    So asking me to provide answers kind of misses the point


  • #3164
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    your objection seems to be that not everybody is paying this tax. Would you prefer if they put vat up by enough to get the expected €160 million?
    You are just picking that "not everyone is paying it" point on its own.

    The €160 million is just a figure they came up with, i.e. €100 per household. This is an introductory, token, get everyone registered figure.


    The real figure they will be looking at, is far beyond this. Thats my problem. If it was guaranteed to remain at this figure, i wouldnt be too bothered. So when you ask as to how else they will get this €160m, thats not the figure they are after. Any other alternatives they could possibly use, will still be considered regardless. So asking how else they can aquire a figure that is not actualy their real target, is pointless.
    Or do you have another suggestion to raise the money, bearing in mind that this €160 million still leaves us €17.8 billion short every year.

    And if you have a better alternative, why do you think they're not already doing it?

    Well they could bring the property tax up to 10k per household, would you have any objections to that? As that is the figure needed. Im guessing you would still have no problem with this, as you have said that there is no alternative.

    How many would register then though? Hence the €100 euro, get them hooked, type charge, then hammer us all at will, using the usual rubbish speeches about us all pulling together, while the ones giving the speeches are not affected.


  • #3165
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    dvpower wrote: »
    .....we're not fully in control of our own finances.

    I'm not in control of my finances! FFs it's bleedin' 2012 not 2004. 4500,000 people unemployed and folks like me living off loans and over-draughts.
    • I don't have a money tree
    • The tooth fairy hasn't visited in a long time.
    • I'd rob a bank but the bankers, developers and gamblers have gotten there before me.
    • Inflation is rising
    • Wages are falling

    Bit of common sense please. Pulling a spare €100 out of my arse ain't gonna happen.


  • #3166
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dvpower wrote: »
    You think we should have done like Greece and introduced a property tax collectable via electricity bills? :eek:



    Careful what you wish for.

    It'll be interesting to see what way that turns out. It was only brought in recently as far as I know.
    Have you heard of anyone being cut off yet?
    BTW, domestic electricity costs in Ireland 0.2162 per kWh - Greece 0.1403 per kWh, another raping!


  • #3167
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    My point in this thread was to challenge the notion that the government are evil super villains inflicting pain for no reason, and also to suggest that there are no easy answers to the crisis

    Wrong thread so....


  • #3168
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    your objection seems to be that not everybody is paying this tax. Would you prefer if they put vat up by enough to get the expected €160 million?
    You are just picking that "not everyone is paying it" point on its own.

    The €160 million is just a figure they came up with, i.e. €100 per household. This is an introductory, token, get everyone registered figure.


    The real figure they will be looking at, is far beyond this. Thats my problem. If it was guaranteed to remain at this figure, i wouldnt be too bothered. So when you ask as to how else they will get this €160m, thats not the figure they are after. Any other alternatives they could possibly use, will still be considered regardless. So asking how else they can aquire a figure that is not actualy their real target, is pointless.
    Or do you have another suggestion to raise the money, bearing in mind that this €160 million still leaves us €17.8 billion short every year.

    And if you have a better alternative, why do you think they're not already doing it?

    Well they could bring the property tax up to 10k per household, would you have any objections to that? As that is the figure needed. Im guessing you would still have no problem with this, as you have said that there is no alternative.

    How many would register then though? Hence the €100 euro, get them hooked, type charge, then hammer us all at will, using the usual rubbish speeches about us all pulling together, while the ones giving the speeches are not affected.
    Again you really haven't addressed the point. Yes the household charge is sh!t and there is not a single person in the country who wants it to be implemented. And my point is that imo the person on the top of the list of those who don't want it is Enda Kenny, so there must be a very good reason for doing it


  • #3169
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    It'll be interesting to see what way that turns out. It was only brought in recently as far as I know.
    Have you heard of anyone being cut off yet?
    BTW, domestic electricity costs in Ireland 0.2162 per kWh - Greece 0.1403 per kWh, another raping!

    Well its 18 cent a kwh incl vat. Still high enough though.


  • #3170
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Well its 18 cent a kwh incl vat. Still high enough though.
    Ok, Pulled the figures off here:

    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=domestic%20electricity%20costs%20in%20greece&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.energy.eu%2F&ei=ZldFT_qOI8S2hAfM7OGdAg&usg=AFQjCNFvTkw5QUsFErvaW5MsWHGV-2Fq-g


  • #3171
    Phill Ewinn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭Phill Ewinn


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Again you really haven't addressed the point. Yes the household charge is sh!t and there is not a single person in the country who wants it to be implemented. And my point is that imo the person on the top of the list of those who don't want it is Enda Kenny, so there must be a very good reason for doing it

    Stop, please. My head is hurting here. The 2% levy on insurance imposed on Irish consumers to pay Quinn UKs UK debts in the UK might give you a clue as to whats happening.

    Pouring €4bn into a poxy little bank worth €28m.
    Increasing the pay of advisors, increasing the pay of junior ministers, cutting PS numbers in such an ad-hoc fashion as to place peoples lives in danger. Should I go on?

    I don't care if the government aren't criminal master minds or not. The effect they're having is the same.


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  • #3172
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Phill Ewinn wrote: »
    Stop, please. My head is hurting here. The 2% levy on insurance imposed on Irish consumers to pay Quinn UKs UK debts in the UK might give you a clue as to whats happening.

    Pouring €4bn into a poxy little bank worth €28m.
    Increasing the pay of advisors, increasing the pay of junior ministers, cutting PS numbers in such an ad-hoc fashion as to place peoples lives in danger. Should I go on?

    I don't care if the government aren't criminal master minds or not. The effect they're having is the same.


    So again, why do you think they're doing what they're doing? Surely if some random guy on boards.ie can see so many better ways of doing things, at least one of their highly paid advisors must have come up with similar ideas? You're still not explaining why the government would inflict totally unnecessary pain on people other than the idea that they're unbelievably stupid and evil (which, as I said, I wouldn't find very plausible as an explanation)


  • #3173
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    So again, why do you think they're doing what they're doing? Surely if some random guy on boards.ie can see so many better ways of doing things, at least one of their highly paid advisors must have come up with similar ideas? You're still not explaining why the government would inflict totally unnecessary pain on people other than the idea that they're unbelievably stupid and evil (which, as I said, I wouldn't find very plausible as an explanation)

    Being detatched from the pain inflicted, always helps the ones inflicting it to do so.


  • #3174
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Being detatched from the pain inflicted, always helps the ones inflicting it to do so.

    Sorry mate I don't buy that. That comes under the "evil" heading. Even if they are detached from it they're still aware they're doing it and they must have a reason, one that doesn't make them look like cartoonish super villains


  • #3175
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Sorry mate I don't buy that. That comes under the "evil" heading. Even if they are detached from it they're still aware they're doing it and they must have a reason, one that doesn't make them look like cartoonish super villains

    Never said they were vilains. But they are completely detatched from the vast majority of peoples circumstances. If you dont get that, then not much more to say.

    Cut disposable income for the masses, while increasing their own is one example.


  • #3176
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    You're still not explaining why the government would inflict totally unnecessary pain on people other than the idea that they're unbelievably stupid and evil (which, as I said, I wouldn't find very plausible as an explanation)

    It's pretty unbelievable that the last lot were so stupid that we have come to be in the position that we are in.... but "we are where we are".

    It is also unbelievable that they have recently awarded a €17k pay rise for opposition leaders, maybe Enda does have some foresight.

    It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home!


  • #3177
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    So again, why do you think they're doing what they're doing? Surely if some random guy on boards.ie can see so many better ways of doing things, at least one of their highly paid advisors must have come up with similar ideas? You're still not explaining why the government would inflict totally unnecessary pain on people other than the idea that they're unbelievably stupid and evil (which, as I said, I wouldn't find very plausible as an explanation)

    INCOMPETENCE


  • #3178
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Never said they were vilains. But they are completely detatched from the vast majority of peoples circumstances. If you dont get that, then not much more to say.

    I never said they weren't detached, just that being detached doesn't mean they don't understand or care about the effect that a household charge will have on people

    Imo they simply find themselves in a situation where the people who are currently keeping our country afloat insisted that they introduce a household charge in exchange got doing so


  • #3179
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    INCOMPETENCE

    Ok, so where are all these better ideas that will get us out of the hole we're in without an ounce of pain for anyone?


  • #3180
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Ok, so where are all these better ideas that will get us out of the hole we're in without an ounce of pain for anyone?

    Post 3162, re; corporation tax.


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  • #3181
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Ok, so where are all these better ideas that will get us out of the hole we're in without an ounce of pain for anyone?

    Your a few years too late asking that one regarding the pain bit.


This discussion has been closed.
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