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Worldwide Occupy Movement?

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/traders-rage-at-central-banks-occupy-policy-3017124.html
    OWNERS of businesses surrounding the Occupy Dame Street protest camp at the Central Bank in Dublin have accused the bank of 'side-stepping' the damage being done to local traders.

    Central Bank Governor Patrick Honohan said last week that while he didn't "welcome" the occupation of the Dame Street concourse, he has no plans to take action against the protesters.

    "A new development on Dame Street has been the arrival of the Occupy Movement," he said. "While not everyone is happy with their being there, several people have said to me that their presence symbolises, albeit in a rather ambiguous and even incoherent way, the feelings of a large part of society in regard to what has gone wrong in the financial sector and with the banks.

    "We don't welcome their presence, but -- as long as no one is harmed or put in danger by them -- we are not at present inclined to take action to have them moved away."

    But local traders are extremely unhappy with the situation and say that jobs are on the line.

    "What's really irritating is the stand that the bank is taking on it, and the powers that be. It seems that they're all side-stepping it," local business owner John Murphy told the Sunday Independent last week.

    "If I put a piece of cardboard outside that door I'd get a fine, yet in the capital city in the centre, in the main tourist area, that is permitted to take place. It doesn't make sense," he added.

    "At the minute I think it's a protest of ego, as opposed to a protest of conscience. There's very few of them actually staying there. This is our capital city and the fact that they've set up a shanty town right across there really irritates me. Obviously there's the collateral damage that it's causing to the business as well. Then when the weather gets milder, what is it going to attract then?"

    "They came at Halloween and for the first week or two it didn't really affect anything, but then it just got bigger and bigger and really messy, and attracted loads of loopers and headbangers," said Frank McQuade, who owns two shops directly facing the camp.

    "I would think that when the weather gets better, it will get more difficult. We asked them for weeks and weeks and explained to them about being small businesses and needing the footfall of customers coming across there. They kept fobbing us off for weeks, right over Christmas and then in January we had meetings every week with them and they'd say 'oh we'll go back to our assembly'. There are no leaders or bosses, so it's very handy, they don't have to do anything then."

    Mr McQuade is quick to point out that he has no issue with their protest in theory, but in practice it is a very different story. Having witnessed some Occupy Dame street protesters openly urinating in the street, and the camp becoming little other than a fire hazard, Frank McQuade has reached his wits' end.

    "Jesus I hate the banks more than they do!" he said. "But there's at least 50 jobs on the line because of them, if not more. I'm 25 years here in April and this is the worst year even including the eighties."

    A few doors down, Paddy Conlon, manager of Candy Lab, explained how he has watched people get off the bus and avoid walking near his shop due to the camp.

    "It's a major concern to us. It's very untidy," he said. "The main house they have at the front of the bank is fine and I think they should just focus on that.

    "It's well known that some nights there is absolutely nobody camping there."

    "It couldn't be done by me and you," Mr Conlon added, "to erect anything you need planning permission."

    For John Murphy, the camp has taken a worthy cause and discredited it.

    "There's no discussions with them," he said. "We've tried every means to get them to reduce the size of the camp or make it more aesthetically pleasing but there's no give with them. It seems like these are serial protesters and if it isn't the oil or trees of whatever it'd be something else. I actually don't think they've done much good."

    "For the first three months I pretty much stayed here constantly," said protester Padraig Loughran, 21, from Trim, Co Meath, in the kitchen area of the Occupy camp.

    "I've gone away now doing other things," he explained, "but I come back every now and then and check in. The movement is much bigger than the camp itself, the camp is a statement and must remain so as a permanent statement and as a permanent raising of awareness."

    Asked if he'd worry that jobs may be lost as a result of the camp's close proximity to these small businesses, the campaigner, who studied acting for two years, replied: "I can understand where they're coming from, but when one gentleman first came to us with his grievances, a member from the camp went over and had a look at his books and had a talk with him and you know, you're in the middle of a recession! You're charging €16.50 for a hair cut! Your business isn't really going to boom! whether or not that's a direct cause of us, I don't personally think so. No."


    Seriously. I love a protest as much as the next man, but it's time to turf these people out and reclaim Dame Street for the citizens of Ireland, rather than a tiny minority of (lets be blunt) highly delusional protesters.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/traders-rage-at-central-banks-occupy-policy-3017124.html




    Seriously. I love a protest as much as the next man, but it's time to turf these people out and reclaim Dame Street for the citizens of Ireland, rather than a tiny minority of (lets be blunt) highly delusional protesters.

    The Central Bank have said they have no problem with the protesters and they own the property. So why should they be "turfed out"?


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    20Cent wrote: »
    The Central Bank have said they have no problem with the protesters and they own the property. So why should they be "turfed out"?
    Did you completely miss the point of the story, or are you being actively malicious towards the people whose livelihoods are being damaged by the protesters?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Did you completely miss the point of the story, or are you being actively malicious towards the people whose livelihoods are being damaged by the protesters?

    I'm afraid OscarBravo,that you are correct in your assertion....the points were missed,by a country mile.
    "If I put a piece of cardboard outside that door I'd get a fine, yet in the capital city in the centre, in the main tourist area, that is permitted to take place. It doesn't make sense," he added.

    A very simple and yet relevant point for a commercial ratepayer to make...DCC has staff driving around Dublin in the wee small hours taking photos of commercial premises which may be transgressing some of the multiplicity of bye-laws and regulations governing their trading.
    "At the minute I think it's a protest of ego, as opposed to a protest of conscience. There's very few of them actually staying there.

    Quite a few of the posts on here would tend to support this POV ?
    They kept fobbing us off for weeks, right over Christmas and then in January we had meetings every week with them and they'd say 'oh we'll go back to our assembly'. There are no leaders or bosses, so it's very handy, they don't have to do anything then.

    The businesses have real people in charge,with addresses and existances which have responsibilities attached....sigh :rolleyes:
    "There's no discussions with them," he said. "We've tried every means to get them to reduce the size of the camp or make it more aesthetically pleasing but there's no give with them. It seems like these are serial protesters and if it isn't the oil or trees of whatever it'd be something else. I actually don't think they've done much good."

    "For the first three months I pretty much stayed here constantly," said protester Padraig Loughran, 21, from Trim, Co Meath, in the kitchen area of the Occupy camp.

    "I've gone away now doing other things," he explained, "but I come back every now and then and check in. The movement is much bigger than the camp itself, the camp is a statement and must remain so as a permanent statement and as a permanent raising of awareness."

    I'm always a bit suss when I see terms such as "raising awareness" combined with exhortations that those whose awareness is being raised "Must do" stuff.....it's usually about then I think of the quote sometimes attributed to Hermann Goering,about reaching for his revolver upon hearing the term Culture mentioned....:eek:

    I suppose if a full time employee in any job in the current environment wished to "go away and do other things" he/she might have great difficulty simply rambling back into work to "check-in" with how stuff is going.....:confused:

    It's our Magic Kingdom really ...."when you wish upon a star,makes no difference where you are etc etc"....


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Did you completely miss the point of the story, or are you being actively malicious towards the people whose livelihoods are being damaged by the protesters?
    well despite the spin put on the story, facts are facts. i'm sure they have a point, but so do ods, and they have every right to be there ...

    but i'm sure businesses will find other excuses, you know minimum wages, water rates, the previous appearance of dame street ... but it would be quite hard to show that ods effected their footfall ...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    So considering that many of these business owners would be part of the 99% that Occupy claim to represent, it can't be proven that the camp is affecting business, and thus, the opinion would be - screw 'em?

    :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Sounds like a Goldilocks problem, the camp is too big, too small, ideas too broad, too specific, speech is too much and too little all at the same time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    Sounds to me like a problem of Occupy's own making tbh

    A mish mash of ideas, ideologies and aims. All mixed together into a semi populist rhetoric that when examined doesn't seem to mean very much. The Fianna Fail of protest politics in essence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Dr Galen wrote: »
    Sounds to me like a problem of Occupy's own making tbh

    A mish mash of ideas, ideologies and aims. All mixed together into a semi populist rhetoric that when examined doesn't seem to mean very much. The Fianna Fail of protest politics in essence.

    Thats a feature of grass roots movement. If loads of people turned up with the exact same signs, opinions and messages it would be pretty suspect don't you think. Grassroots is messy and a bit anarchic by nature. Its a side effect but also a strength.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    Dr Galen wrote: »
    So considering that many of these business owners would be part of the 99% that Occupy claim to represent, it can't be proven that the camp is affecting business, and thus, the opinion would be - screw 'em?

    :rolleyes:
    screw who? the 99%?
    and how are they being screwed, other than by the 1%?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    Dr Galen wrote: »
    Sounds to me like a problem of Occupy's own making tbh

    A mish mash of ideas, ideologies and aims. All mixed together into a semi populist rhetoric that when examined doesn't seem to mean very much. The Fianna Fail of protest politics in essence.
    possibly, or maybe it is an excuse spread by those who are against the occupy movement ...

    the meaning remains unchanged, whether people follow it, that it a different matter.

    i'm not sure what FF has to do with occupy other than being the opposite of what they want ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    I'm not intrinsically against the Occupy movement though and those are my thoughts. That argument doesn't hold any water for me so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Not to be a backseat mod here ;) but any chance we could keep the story about shop owners objecting to ODS out of this thread? It has its own thread already and TBH I'm glad to find a thread here debating the ideologies of the worldwide movement for once, would hate to see it get derailed.

    To get back on topic though, I'm going to be blunt about this for a second:

    To Godge, Permabear etc, do you honestly deny / disbelieve that there is a serrious worldwide problem in terms of governance, cronyism, and the ordinary man or woman being used as pawns by the powerful?

    I mean do you honestly deny that greed, not 'mistakes', were to blame for a lot of the scandals we've seen?
    Very specifically, how do you react to my assertion that far from "making mistakes", the banksters operated with an agenda of "I'll have my fun and I don't care who I hurt in the process"?

    That IMO is the fundamental keystone of what happened, both in the banks AND in government, and all the collusion between them. Selfish "As long as I'm ok and I get away with it, f*ck everyone else" mentalities. And those are the people I want to see facing the consequences I and other innocent bystanders are facing because of their actions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    This is a thread about the worldwide occupy movement... so the damage it is doing to local businesses is important. I just heard about a story in the US where occupiers are throwing bricks through breaking restaurant windows.

    They also caused random destructive acts. Source


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14 wearytraveller


    This is a thread about the worldwide occupy movement... so the damage it is doing to local businesses is important. I just heard about a story in the US where occupiers are throwing bricks through restaurant windows.

    They also caused random destructive acts. Source

    I also read about this, and about the Occupy movements almost universal denouncement of violence as a means of achieving objectives. Without in any way condoning violent behaviour, however, I would say that the people in Oakland have a lot of reason to be angry, protestors have been hospitalised by police brutality whilst they remained peaceful. It is hardly any wonder that a few find it hard to remain calm. However, this behaviour is not encouraged or condoned by the Occupy movement as far as I have seen.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    This is a thread about the worldwide occupy movement... so the damage it is doing to local businesses is important. I just heard about a story in the US where occupiers are throwing bricks through restaurant windows.

    They also caused random destructive acts. Source
    i'm not sure what the point is here ... i mean there are corrupt police, does that mean that the entire police force should be dismissed?


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    I also read about this, and about the Occupy movements almost universal denouncement of violence as a means of achieving objectives. Without in any way condoning violent behaviour, however, I would say that the people in Oakland have a lot of reason to be angry, protestors have been hospitalised by police brutality whilst they remained peaceful. It is hardly any wonder that a few find it hard to remain calm. However, this behaviour is not encouraged or condoned by the Occupy movement as far as I have seen.
    davoxx wrote: »
    i'm not sure what the point is here ... i mean there are corrupt police, does that mean that the entire police force should be dismissed?


    The article, if you read it, is about Occupiers in Portland Oregon breaking windows of restaurants and cars, throwing garbage on the streets and spray painting random cars in "support of Occupy Oakland".
    Not even about brutality or corruption in their own city, let alone state - they descend into random senseless acts of vandalism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    20Cent wrote: »
    Thats a feature of grass roots movement. If loads of people turned up with the exact same signs, opinions and messages it would be pretty suspect don't you think. Grassroots is messy and a bit anarchic by nature. Its a side effect but also a strength.

    No it is not, and that is a lazy assessment.

    I've organized a number of protests and public actions in the past, both as part of more grassroots-ad hoc organizations, and as a staffer for a trade union.

    The most important thing any group that wants to make change can do is have a clear, coherent, consistent message. However big and messy the underlying issue is, and however, difficult it is to hold together a mish-mash coalition, the public message has to follow those three C's - when you talk to the media, when you hand out leaflets, etc. When I see groups that have leaflets with 40 bulletpoints, or see a protest site that is ostensibly about one thing, but then has people agitating for bike lanes, veganism, and breast feeding (a la the indignados movement in Madrid a few months back), I know right off that they are doomed to irrelevance.

    Those who are within the Occupy movement may see it as internally democratic, hence the unwieldy nature of their political demands and manifestos. But effectively challenging the status quo requires a level of single-mindedness and discipline that the very ethos of the Occupy movement as it has evolved discourages. Inchoate rage can only take you so far, and broadly wishing for a 'better world' is little better than a feel-good exercise.

    Ultimately, grassroots organizing may be messy and anarchic, but effective social movements require a far more single-minded, strategic, and coherent set of demands and confrontation that the Occupy movement has demonstrated. Occupy movements in multiple settings have had windows of opportunity to capitalize on public support for their actions, but more importantly public anger towards political and business elites. And in my view, they have hopelessly squandered those opportunities. Whatever changes in business-government relations and social policy happen in the future, I doubt they will be driven by the Occupy movement.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    The article, if you read it, is about Occupiers in Portland Oregon breaking windows of restaurants and cars, throwing garbage on the streets and spray painting random cars in "support of Occupy Oakland".
    Not even about brutality or corruption in their own city, let alone state - they descend into random senseless acts of vandalism.
    i read it, my point was that there are police officers that break the law as well, though the police establishment is officially against that.

    i suppose if it was a co-ordinated act of violence as opposed to random, you'd feel better? maybe thought out acts of vandalism is okay?

    unless occupy actively encourages violence, the acts of a few protesters is not reflective of the entire movement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    No it is not, and that is a lazy assessment.

    I've organized a number of protests and public actions in the past, both as part of more grassroots-ad hoc organizations, and as a staffer for a trade union.

    The most important thing any group that wants to make change can do is have a clear, coherent, consistent message. However big and messy the underlying issue is, and however, difficult it is to hold together a mish-mash coalition, the public message has to follow those three C's - when you talk to the media, when you hand out leaflets, etc. When I see groups that have leaflets with 40 bulletpoints, or see a protest site that is ostensibly about one thing, but then has people agitating for bike lanes, veganism, and breast feeding (a la the indignados movement in Madrid a few months back), I know right off that they are doomed to irrelevance.

    Those who are within the Occupy movement may see it as internally democratic, hence the unwieldy nature of their political demands and manifestos. But effectively challenging the status quo requires a level of single-mindedness and discipline that the very ethos of the Occupy movement as it has evolved discourages. Inchoate rage can only take you so far, and broadly wishing for a 'better world' is little better than a feel-good exercise.

    Ultimately, grassroots organizing may be messy and anarchic, but effective social movements require a far more single-minded, strategic, and coherent set of demands and confrontation that the Occupy movement has demonstrated. Occupy movements in multiple settings have had windows of opportunity to capitalize on public support for their actions, but more importantly public anger towards political and business elites. And in my view, they have hopelessly squandered those opportunities. Whatever changes in business-government relations and social policy happen in the future, I doubt they will be driven by the Occupy movement.

    Sorry but this is totally different situation. Its a worldwide movement tackling massive complex problems.
    There is also a 3 C message despite all attempts to muddy the water.
    It has already succeeded in leaving a lasting legacy. It has changed to whole campaign for president in the US and peoples attitudes towards Wall St. Even Romney is getting grief from republicans for his ties to wall st something unthinkable only a year ago.
    There isn't some measure or tangible thing to mark success like a new cycle lane but it is defiantly making a big difference.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    20Cent wrote: »
    Sorry but this is totally different situation. Its a worldwide movement tackling massive complex problems.
    There is also a 3 C message despite all attempts to muddy the water.
    It has already succeeded in leaving a lasting legacy. It has changed to whole campaign for president in the US and peoples attitudes towards Wall St. Even Romney is getting grief from republicans for his ties to wall st something unthinkable only a year ago.
    There isn't some measure or tangible thing to mark success like a new cycle lane but it is defiantly making a big difference.

    I have seen no tangible change in the GOP race because of the Occupy movement - it's the remnants of the Tea Party movement who are angry with Wall Street within the GOP, and right-wing (and left-wing) populism in the US has always had time for anti-Eastern banking interests. And Romney is going to get grief from his party regardless: the base didn't like him in 2008, and they certainly dont like him now. OWS was fascinating to journalists and gave hope to left-wing activists, but I haven't seen any real change in how either party does business because of it.

    What exactly is the three-C message? You don't even get that when you visit Occupy camps! I certainly haven't in the Occupy sites I have visited in Spain and the US: there is a hodge-podge of loosely left-wing platforms all under the leaky umbrella of Occupy.

    Spain is a perfect example. People were fed up with the corruption of the political process, and the Indignado movement fed on that. But once they had the hearts and minds of large swathes of the Spanish population, they didn't actually do anything with it, and after a month, the same shopkeepers who were bringing crates of food and water to the people camped out in Sol, in central Madrid, were loudly complaining that the indignados were doing little else but destroying local business. For people who really wanted to see changes to Spanish electoral rules around corruption, or reform to the draconian banking laws which saddled people with mortgages long after then had been turfed out of their homes, this was a colossal missed opportunity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭ed2hands


    davoxx wrote: »
    i'm not sure what the point is here ... i mean there are corrupt police, does that mean that the entire police force should be dismissed?


    This.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    I have seen no tangible change in the GOP race because of the Occupy movement - it's the remnants of the Tea Party movement who are angry with Wall Street within the GOP, and right-wing (and left-wing) populism in the US has always had time for anti-Eastern banking interests. And Romney is going to get grief from his party regardless: the base didn't like him in 2008, and they certainly dont like him now. OWS was fascinating to journalists and gave hope to left-wing activists, but I haven't seen any real change in how either party does business because of it.

    What exactly is the three-C message? You don't even get that when you visit Occupy camps! I certainly haven't in the Occupy sites I have visited in Spain and the US: there is a hodge-podge of loosely left-wing platforms all under the leaky umbrella of Occupy.

    Spain is a perfect example. People were fed up with the corruption of the political process, and the Indignado movement fed on that. But once they had the hearts and minds of large swathes of the Spanish population, they didn't actually do anything with it, and after a month, the same shopkeepers who were bringing crates of food and water to the people camped out in Sol, in central Madrid, were loudly complaining that the indignados were doing little else but destroying local business. For people who really wanted to see changes to Spanish electoral rules around corruption, or reform to the draconian banking laws which saddled people with mortgages long after then had been turfed out of their homes, this was a colossal missed opportunity.

    You have Newt Gingrich making a half hour feckin movie attacking greedy capitalists!! Obama is practically talking like an Occupier now what more you want.

    Economic Justice is the resounding message coming from all the camps.

    What would your 3 C message be?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Godge wrote: »
    Yes, you did and I explained to you several pages ago following a specific request from you the sequence of events and happenings that showed that there was no clear evidence of any corruption and it was due to stupid decisions by a now defeated FF government. You, of course, had no answer and ran away from the debate. Here it is again below for you, in case you have forgotten.

    I did not in fact run away from the debate, in fact I typed up an answer to that which I assumed I had posted, I now notice I hadn't.

    My issue was with points two and four.
    Firstly, in point one:
    Firstly, there was the stupidly over-confident David Drumm and Sean Fitzpatrick who believed they could build a third force in Irish banking and who convinced thousands of shareholders, investers, government ministers and officials and loan customers, mostly businessmen that their stupid foolish dream could come true.

    I simply do not believe that was 'foolish'. They knew exactly the kind of shady, dishonest dealing they were getting involved with from the start, re hidden loans and golden circles, and it seems to me they simply didn't give a crap. "I've had my fun, and that's all that matters" again. The shareholders were indeed naive, but let's not forget that they too were deceived about hidden loans etc.

    Point two, you again use the word "stupid" with regard to other banks who followed suite. I don't like the word "stupid" in this context as it implies that responsibility is at least slightly diminished. There is of course a difference between naive stupidity and deliberately being a "chancer", and I firmly believe the Irish banks were a case of the latter. They knew exactly what they were doing.
    I put it to you that if Drumm, FitzPatrick etc were merely "stupid", they wouldn't have thought it necessary to hide their loans and use insider trading to prop up the share price with the golden circle. They knew it was wrong and they knew they shouldn't have been doing it - otherwise they wouldn't have gone to such elaborate lengths to cover it up.

    Point four, you again cite stupidity on the part of the politicians. Yet again I object to the use of this word. You can't plead insanity in court if the reality is you were perfectly sane, but you chose to do it anyway because you thought it was worth the risk. They were not "stupid", they were chancers, they were dishonest, and they should be held fully responsible for their conscious decisions.

    I agree with point three to some extent, but I put it to you that those in power were persistently telling everyone that it was perfect and there was nothing wrong with what was going on, with our esteemed former leader going so far as to tell naysayers to commit suicide. People were certainly naive, I'm not denying that, but they were also misled, and the majority of the people did not deliberately engage in illicit behavior and try to cover it up.
    I would say to you that illegal activity happens all the time, be it individuals, corporations or others but there is no evidence at all of corruption (that involves government, remember). So stop calling it corruption, call it possible illegal activity. And then present some evidence to show it was illegal and I don't mean something from some conspiracy theory site.

    Corruption is defined as abuse of power in order to illicitly better yourself or your friends / colleagues. Illegal activity does indeed happen all the time. I make my accusations of corruption when I see those in power magically turning a blind eye, sweeping it under the carpet, awarding bailouts and loud public defenses, and all for people they just so happen to be personal friends of.

    If there was no attempt at a cover up, there would have been a rigorous and immediate investigation into every allegation of wrongdoing in every major bank, and those responsible would have been held accountable. Some investigations are indeed underway into Anglo, and apparently they will soon conclude so we'll find out whether or not they had any teeth, but the very fact that the previous government knew about the Golden Circle and kept quiet about it should in itself have warranted a cover up charge.

    A lie of omission is still a lie.

    I'm not going to keep repeating and posting lists of the dodgy, unexplained happenings in all of those banks at nauseum, I've posted them often enough before - and ironically given your accusing me of running from debates, the posts have generally gone unanswered.

    By the way, off topic for this thread I know, but in case further down the line you suggest that Greece's only troubles are to do with simple over indebtedness and mismanagement...

    http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-greece-paid-goldman-300-million-to-help-it-hide-its-ballooning-debts-2010-2

    Looks like a fair amount of dodgy dealing went on there as well.
    How you can defend this kind of thing is absolutely beyond me. You can call the people naive and foolish, but there is no excuse, ever, for a government lying to the people and covering up its behavior.

    Dishonesty is dishonesty - simple as.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭ Maxton Sour Misogynist


    Hmmm, some of these protesters are doing themselves a dis-service I think.

    Something that annoys me very much is that some (and I say some) of these protesters revel in the misery of other people, the worse things get for others the stronger their arguments and positions become. When the world and Irish economies recover their arguments will be lost and they will have no reason to be.

    I know someone that would subscribe to most of the Occupy movement's ideas and he has pretty much taken the line that he *won't* work (a huge difference from "can't work") as he sees this in many ways as the beginning of the end, that there will be no recovery and the end game will be fascist governments and nuclear war (not an exaggeration on my part, he does say this). In his mind, what's the point of working or doing anything?

    Now I like the guy, but I've no doubt that he looks at me and sees me as a sheep in the herd because I get up every morning for work.

    I know we are going through very tough times but I do see a light at the end of the tunnel, there will be economic recovery (when exactly is the $1 million question).

    So do the majority of the Occupy protesters/supporters see a light at the end of the tunnel?


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    davoxx wrote: »
    The article, if you read it, is about Occupiers in Portland Oregon breaking windows of restaurants and cars, throwing garbage on the streets and spray painting random cars in "support of Occupy Oakland".
    Not even about brutality or corruption in their own city, let alone state - they descend into random senseless acts of vandalism.
    i read it, my point was that there are police officers that break the law as well, though the police establishment is officially against that.

    i suppose if it was a co-ordinated act of violence as opposed to random, you'd feel better? maybe thought out acts of vandalism is okay?

    unless occupy actively encourages violence, the acts of a few protesters is not reflective of the entire movement.
    That is ridiculous in honesty. Occupy is either a movement or it isn't. When acts are carried out in the name of occupy and in relation to the circumstances of another occupy movement then it's far too convenient for the rest of the movement to then turn around and say, well it's not the movement but individuals.

    Police corruption is not relevant here. What's relevant is senseless destruction and violence by occupies.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    That is ridiculous in honesty.
    your blinding assertion of denial is baffling to be honest ... my point is logical and factually based.
    Occupy is either a movement or it isn't.
    yes, occupy is a movement. i don't think anyone would argue with that classification.
    When acts are carried out in the name of occupy and in relation to the circumstances of another occupy movement then it's far too convenient for the rest of the movement to then turn around and say, well it's not the movement but individuals.
    when acts are bing carried out in the name of an organisation/movement/country/celebrity it does not necessarily reflect the actual intentions of said organisation/movement/country/celebrity. this is a fact.

    the rest of the movement are well within their rights to clarify whether the movement agrees or disagrees with those acts.
    Police corruption is not relevant here. What's relevant is senseless destruction and violence by occupies.
    i know, you'd like to ignore this as it quite succinctly proves your point to be null and void.

    unless you are saying that as a member of society (whatever nationality), you agree with all the crimes various other people commit under it's name ...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    So do the majority of the Occupy protesters/supporters see a light at the end of the tunnel?
    i'm sure there is light at the end ... but how long is the tunnel and for whom is the light?

    that's the real question.

    then the follow up would be, how long before we enter another tunnel?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    If you think someone is trolling or a re-reg, please notify the mods - don't clutter the thread with it. It will only get you infracted.

    Let's focus on the actual issues and not individual posters, please.

    SSR


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    davoxx wrote: »
    i read it, my point was that there are police officers that break the law as well, though the police establishment is officially against that..

    And when police officers break the law, other police officers enforce the law against them. They are subject to the courts and they are removed from the gardai.

    This is not a new phenonemon

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/five-sacked-from-garda-following-court-convictions-57717.html

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/three-gardai-fired-from-the-force-in-just-one-month-2264321.html


    2007 and 2010 stories of dismissals from the gardai for your education. There is also a garda ombudsman in place to consider complaints about the gardai.

    http://www.gardaombudsman.ie/

    http://www.gardaombudsman.ie/GSOC/Five-yearReport2012.pdf

    The Ombudsman has taken action in many cases - see extracts below. Nut even more interestingly, the Gardai themselves have referred cases to the Ombudsman so in the case of illegal activity or activity that may not be illegal but that it worthy of complaint, there are remedies available and the gardai themselves take part in the process.


    "The Commission has forwarded 111 files to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. The Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions has directed prosecutions in 29 cases involving 42 defendants. "

    "The Commission has forwarded 89 files to the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána with a recommendation that he consider disciplinary processes. "

    "The Commission has responded to 650 referrals from the Garda Síochána under Section 102 of the Act. "



    davoxx wrote: »
    i suppose if it was a co-ordinated act of violence as opposed to random, you'd feel better? maybe thought out acts of vandalism is okay?

    unless occupy actively encourages violence, the acts of a few protesters is not reflective of the entire movement.


    Right, you are the one who compared violence perpetrated by Occupy protesters to illegal acts committed by police forces. I have illustrated the clear ways in which police officers in Ireland are investigated and penalised for such offences. Given that it is you who tried to justify the two as being the same, maybe you could outline what procedures the Occupy movement has in place to deal with violence or other illegal activity (say someone pocketing donations, for example) that takes place by people acting in its name.

    If you are not able to outline how this happens, your analogy fails and we are left with the problem of the condoning by Occupy of violence through inaction against those who commit it in their name.


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