Gotham (Fox) [ Spoilers ]

Agent Coulson · 23-09-2014 2:17am

Danny Cannon of the CSI's franchises as well.

23-09-2014 2:25am

I think a problem with a show such as this is that if you don't pay fan service you risk alienating part of your target audience. As a fan of the character I'd love the show to give us something a little different, to try and tell a story we've not seen before but doing so could mean that many comic book fans are turned off and they are the ones who will make the most noise.

krudler · 23-09-2014 2:37am

Deleted User wrote: »

I think a problem with a show such as this is that if you don't pay fan service you risk alienating part of your target audience. As a fan of the character I'd love the show to give us something a little different, to try and tell a story we've not seen before but doing so could mean that many comic book fans are turned off and they are the ones who will make the most noise.

True, I guess it was just the pilot and now that it's been established that these characters already exist they can give them more meaning that just cameos every other week. I did like how Edward Nygma works for the GCPD though.

I wonder is there a plan for how this will pan out, if they'll age Bruce a good bit a season or two in, if it keeps running for a few years that is. Or will Bruce just be a bit part every now and then.

Was

the comedian who was auditioning for Fish meant to be The Joker? he's a failed comedian in The Killing Joke, if they're going down that route

RobbingBandit · 23-09-2014 12:00pm

Loved the Michelle Pfeiffer homage in the first scene.

Right Turn Clyde · 23-09-2014 12:14pm

Batman fanboys have been well served over the years, i.e. the various Animated Universe series, the Christopher Nolan trilogy, the Arkham video games. All groundbreaking adaptations. Sure, the Schumacher movies were terrible, and personally, I don't like the two Burton films. But generally speaking the hit to miss ratio has been incredibly high for this particular franchise. And yet here we are worrying about what the fanboys think. It pisses me off. I'm a huge fan myself, but I was delighted to hear that Batman wouldn't feature in this series. This will be heresy to some, but Batman's origins and his parents' death play too big a part in the entire franchise. There's different stories to be told about Gotham and I'm glad people are copping onto that fact.

Agent Coulson · 23-09-2014 7:28pm

I feel setting when Bruce is so young they escape the Smallville curse when will we see him in the suit.

If done right this can be a great back story not for Batman or Gordon but for the the DC Villains.

I enjoyed the opening episode but found Gordon nearly to something... I can't put my finger on it.

On a side note I really don't like Mrs Will Smith I hope she really doesn't have a huge presence in the show.

Alfred Borden · 23-09-2014 7:34pm

It was an ok episode, nothing more, nothing less. I really dont like Ben McKenzie as Gordon though so hopefully my opinion changes or I wont get into this show.

23-09-2014 8:10pm

I've yet to watch it but Mckenzie was superb in Southland and you could almost imagine this as some sort of sequel to it.

TwoShedsJackson · 23-09-2014 8:24pm

I thought it was decent enough, they have to get a lot of fan service into the pilot, now it can hopefully settle down a bit. Liked Gordon, Bullock and the Penguin in particular. Did not like Fish Mooney, but I suppose the Penguin has to have someone to depose.

RobbingBandit · 23-09-2014 9:56pm

Second the dislike for Fish Mooney, don't like Will Smiths wifey she looks too smug. Don't think we will see Bruce in the suit in the show, he is 10/11 in this, he doesn't go off to train for quite a few years ala Batman Begins and the core of the show is not on him rather on the life of Gordon, love the guy playing Alfred, was great in Equilibrium, should be a great show overall.

pixelburp · 23-09-2014 11:22pm

I was going to post how generally a pilot should get a pass on quality because it has so much to perform for a 'cold' audience that it can't be expected to be perfect first time. But at the same time, it's not impossible, a recent example for me might be Orphan Black's gripping opening episode (only just started watching this), or my own personal high water mark, Battlestar Galactica's '33', an episode so thrilling and enthralling, most shows never reach half the heights of that episode. Even Battlestar itself sometimes struggled.

So against the gold standard, Gotham's opener isn't that great; it's exposition-heavy, riddled with generic touches and is so happy to be able to use characters from the funny-books it drops them in everywhere, no matter the cost. Not to mention the crude attempts to nod and wink towards Bruce Wayne's destiny. If that gets inserted into every episode I'll grow tired of the show, fast.

But hey, I've seen much worse and the little changes made to characters' backstories suggests there'll be some mystery and unknown territory charted here, the fans won't be completely placated (as annoying as he was, writing Edward Nigma as the precinct's forensic scientist was a potentially great idea).

krudler wrote: »

Was
the comedian who was auditioning for Fish meant to be The Joker? he's a failed comedian in The Killing Joke, if they're going down that route

There's was rumour going, and I'm not sure if it was confirmed or denied, that in each episode there'd be a background character who could be the Joker, or at least behave in a way that could point towards an origin story. Personally, I'd be surprised if the Joker was introduced, he's so integral to Batman's own personal story, it's hard to see how they'd write an early version in without diluting the Batman mythos entirely.

syklops · 23-09-2014 11:57pm

"Spoilers" is in the thread title so stop reading here if you have not seen episode one.

Did they really have to put so many future villains in the pilot? It was a bit crowded. Almost like a top 10. Also felt a bit X-Men:First Class. Nygma working forensics I'll admit I did like but I don't know. It also felt a bit James Bond Jnr-y. Everyone typecast in their roles 10 years before. It would have been nicer if penguin was a tailor or something with a cameo every few episodes who eventually gets disenfranchised, not a mob lackey who decides to get revenge in episode 1.

CastorTroy · 24-09-2014 1:07am

I wonder why they changed Ivy's name. Think that's the only character that really felt shoehorned in.

As for feeling they had to have a load of easter eggs ain for fans, I don't think that's the case. Out of everyone watching this series, it'll be the Batman fans that would stick with it, and they'll continue watching to see how characters are going to come into it.

I think the second episode will be a better indication of how the series will play out.

RobbingBandit · 24-09-2014 2:47am

Thought it was weird Selina Kyle witnessed Thomas and Martha Wayne being murdered don't think I have ever heard that before. Also like Alfred as a cockney rather than pompous Brit, anyone know what era the series is set in as they seem to have modern fashion and mobiles yet the fact that the bullet used to kill Thomas Wayne cost $6 seemed to be important/expensive.

krudler · 24-09-2014 2:51am

pixelburp wrote: »

I was going to post how generally a pilot should get a pass on quality because it has so much to perform for a 'cold' audience that it can't be expected to be perfect first time. But at the same time, it's not impossible, a recent example for me might be Orphan Black's gripping opening episode (only just started watching this), or my own personal high water mark, Battlestar Galactica's '33', an episode so thrilling and enthralling, most shows never reach half the heights of that episode. Even Battlestar itself sometimes struggled.

So against the gold standard, Gotham's opener isn't that great; it's exposition-heavy, riddled with generic touches and is so happy to be able to use characters from the funny-books it drops them in everywhere, no matter the cost. Not to mention the crude attempts to nod and wink towards Bruce Wayne's destiny. If that gets inserted into every episode I'll grow tired of the show, fast.

God yeah, that's a fantastic episode, I never really thought of it as the pilot as I watched the miniseries first but it actually is the first episode of the show, totally forgot that.

I think if Bruce Wayne is in it every few episodes it'll be ok, but if he's in every episode and major plots revolve around him then it'll defeat the purpose of having a Batman show without Batman in it. How much story mileage can they get out of a pre-teen Bruce Wayne? he's not going to go off next week and train with ninjas like.
There's enough characters as is to build stories around and having Jim Gordon be an actual cop can open up lots of non-Batman centred story arcs. Will watch next week and see if it continues with dropping every villain in for the sake of it or if it'll progress more naturally.

TwoShedsJackson · 24-09-2014 7:59am

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Thought it was weird Selina Kyle witnessed Thomas and Martha Wayne being murdered don't think I have ever heard that before. Also like Alfred as a cockney rather than pompous Brit, anyone know what era the series is set in as they seem to have modern fashion and mobiles yet the fact that the bullet used to kill Thomas Wayne cost $6 seemed to be important/expensive.

It was described as a very unusual bullet, for a handgun the police didn't have on their database, so that accounts for the expense of each one, I suppose.

They did mention in the 'Gotham Revealed' show that looks-wise they decided to go for a mix of older cars, buildings etc. but still have mobile phones and things, just to reinforce the sense of Gotham not being part of our world as such.

BlitzKrieg · 24-09-2014 1:53pm

I enjoyed it enough, I understand the complaint of cramming too many villains into the first episode but honestly it really does depend where they go from here. If it turns into a origin story for each villain a week then *bah* I'd be disappointed.

But if they stick with those they've shown (Ivy, Catwoman, penguin and Riddler) as supporting cast and show over the 1st season the slow progression towards their end result as sub plots to the main plot of Gordon the mob & the wayne killer (anyone else get really nervous at first that it was going the 1989 route and have the joker kill the waynes?)

There is hint that it might do the above. Enigma is part of the police so you can see him showing up every episode as a CSI sort and get increasingly frustrated as the season goes on. They've established Penguin is going to be clawing his way through the mob already so he'll possibly pop up in serveral episodes setting off chain events in the main plot. I get the feeling with Catwoman they'll have her interacting with bruce wayne and perhaps Ivy will get involved into that as well as a reoccuring sub plot.

That's what I would like a tight inter woven series of arcs for the above to bring us to the end of season 1. Then swap some out and season 2 have some other characters show up, perhaps a young Hush or black mask as friends/rivals of bruce would be interesting.

ixoy · 24-09-2014 2:13pm

Are licencing issues going to prevent them using the DC characters from DC's Arrow / Flash universe? Most obvious example is Ra's al Ghul who is a notable character in that universe.

titan18 · 24-09-2014 5:36pm

I'm hoping it'll focus on Gordon and Gotham's descent into a city where Batman is needed. They can show the rise of the likes of The Riddler and Penguin with that, and obviously it ties into a Batman origins story, but I'm hoping for only a small focus on Wayne and more on Gordon, the mob and Gotham itself

Soft Falling Rain · 24-09-2014 6:59pm

I thought it was good enough for the first episode though there were some flat moments. Unfortunately Mckenzie's Gordon had a fair few of them but that was tempered with one or two very enjoyable moments. Gordon's exchanges with the MCU in particular were brilliant and look forward to more friction between Gordon and Montoya.

I don't see the problem with the amount of villains and characters introduced as they all had a role to play and fitted nicely enough into the overall plot. A Batman show without Batman kind of has to play as many cards as they have otherwise you run the risk of losing the viewer early on.

So for me it worked, nothing special but it holds plenty of potential.

tvnutz · 24-09-2014 7:53pm

I've watched the first 20mins and the dialogue is awful and the whole thing just looks hammy, which is maybe what they were going for but not sure if Ill be able to stand it. Acting is fairly rubbish as well. Will watch the rest later and see if it improves.

CastorTroy · 24-09-2014 10:17pm

I wonder if the picture behind Barbara when Montoya called was a Hush reference.

Penn · 25-09-2014 8:18am

Jeez... they fairly hammered home the references to future Batman villians...

PhiloCypher · 25-09-2014 10:49am

Things I liked : I thought the actors they got for riddler and penguin did well and were suitably theatrical and off kilter. Tho I thought cramming an introduction of them both into the same episode was a mistake as it drew attention to how similar they look. Tall pale and skinny with greasy hair.

The child actor who plays Bruce also does a commendable job portraying Bruce's cold intelligence in the scene later in the episode with Gordon. Doesn't over emote like some child actors (see Carl in walking dead)

The production values and direction were pretty decent for a network show.

Things I didn't like whether it's the actors fault or the script the opening lines of dialogue between Bullock and Gordon were cliché and hammy in the extreme imo. Maybe it read better on the page but on the screen it just didn't work and seemed shoe horned in fore the sole purpose of establishing Gordon rookie status.

The horrible sonic wallpaper music. I'm not expecting Danny Elfman or Hans Zimmer here but come on they have to do better then that. Arrow a show on a network with far less money to throw around had a superb soundtrack for its first season so there really is no excuse.

CastorTroy · 25-09-2014 11:04am

Yeah think they really overdid it with the big neon signs saying "Hey, this is The Riddler!"
Did think it was like that though. At first it was like "Oh his name's Edward and he likes making people guess" "Ah so his surname's Nigma so that confirms it. "Ah he's told to stop saying riddles. We get it already. He's the Riddler"
Same with Penguin and not even bothering to go with Ivy's real name.
Pretty sure if they bring in Mr Freeze, someone will call him Mr Fries before he corrects them that he's a Doctor

groovie · 26-09-2014 10:18am

Watched the pilot last night, I'm out. Very, very, very few positives in this show,imho.

don ramo · 26-09-2014 3:07pm

i think they loaded to much into the pilot, i expect it will calm down a bit over the next few episodes, as the cast gels a bit better, SHIELD had the opposite problem last year, they spent to much time introducing characters, but once they did the show got moving and improved a lot, and they introduced character over half a season whereas gotham seems to have gotten to many out straight off the starting line,

stiffler123 · 26-09-2014 3:15pm

Can they use any Batman villain they want in this? Would be cool to see Harley Quinn in it at some point.

ShaneU · 26-09-2014 4:09pm

stiffler123 wrote: »

Can they use any Batman villain they want in this? Would be cool to see Harley Quinn in it at some point.

She'd only be about 5 years old in this

A_Sober_Paddy · 26-09-2014 4:46pm

Just watched the Pilot, found it Meh to be honest...All a bit cheesey and dialogue seems kinda forced and at times it has an almost super cheap feel to it.

Think that having a lot of the Villians in the first episode was a bit much, also having them all linked in one way(kinda like Lost) just seemed stupid to me

Gotham (Fox) [** Spoilers **]

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Gotham (Fox) [ Spoilers ]