The Mega Management Company thread

The_Conductor · 03-01-2005 1:04pm

bohsboy wrote:

:mad: :mad: :mad: Absolute joke, 1,200 a year for very very little. Had my windows cleaned once in two years, non ending problems with all complexes, very litle feedback from Wallis Management, avoid these people with a barge pole.

But as an earlier poster said, all these problems could have been saved had it not been for those amateurs, Menolly Homes.....absolute dirt.

God, I'm pissed off again! :mad:

I know it seems like a lot of money- but get a break down from the management company of their finances and expenditure- at very least it would give you a decent picture of where your money is going.

is_that_so · 03-01-2005 1:28pm

Our management company is run by the residents. In the main it's not a big job and like smccarrick we run it in much the same way.

AGM
Set charges
Organise services

We also have our own company solicitor. Admittedly all of this had been set up by the time most of us moved in.

I would add though that there is some degree of work involved for the directors. It's not enormous hassle but you need to ensure that you deliver the services.

As for the CRO , our accountant told us that once you are registered with the CRO as company you have to produce audited accounts. In all honesty ours are no more than the total in the bank at year end.

I am not sure what you can do with a management company but my understanding of the situation is that the owners either own the company or failing that choose the management company. A colleague in work has a problem with the management company where he is, but as they are on contract the residents will get to decide on their performance in the next few years.

I notice in all of the posts that there is very little mention of the legal situation vis-a-vis resident's rights and management company. By the sounds of some of the cases it is almost time to bring in the lawyers.

Maybe someone has a clear legal picture of what can be done.

IMHO, set up your own company if the residents are willing and people are prepared to do the work or if not establish how you can dump the present incumbents and "invite tenders" from other managment companies.

magpie · 03-01-2005 1:59pm

I notice in all of the posts that there is very little mention of the legal situation vis-a-vis resident's rights and management company. By the sounds of some of the cases it is almost time to bring in the lawyers.

The nub of the issue is this: There is a Management Company for each development which would have been set up when the development was built. The shareholders are the unit owners and the Directors will usually be the developers until they hand over control to the owners.

The confusion arises when people talk about KPM, Irish Estates etc as Management Companies, they are in fact management agents who are employed by the management company of your development of which you are a shareholder. Therefore it's up to the shareholders to ensure that you receive proper service, that you get your AGM, that accounts are furnished etc and if they are not that you appoint a better management agent. The main problem you will encounter here is apathy. I lived in a complex where most of the owners rented their units and really didn't care what happened. Most of them didn't even pay the service charge.

In terms of suing people, and this is what the management agents rely on to get away with blue murder, if you sue you can only sue the Management Company, that is all the other shareholders. If you want to sue the management agents you need the management company to take action, which requires a unanimous decision to do so.

The only solution is sell your apartment and buy a house, now matter how crappy. At least you won't have to deal with this ****e any more.

RainyDay · 03-01-2005 2:04pm

magpie wrote:

The only solution is sell your apartment and buy a house, now matter how crappy. At least you won't have to deal with this ****e any more.

Not quite that simple - Some new houses (particularly those in gated developments, or mixed developments with apartments) involve management companies/agents/fees too.

Though I agree with the thrust of your post - the main responsibility lies with the owners to get value for money for their fees.

capistrano · 03-01-2005 2:18pm

There seems to be some confusion over terms in some of these posts.

Management Company - Company owned by the owners of the apartment complex. This company has a board of directors usually appointed from among the owners (and developers in the early years).

Managment Agents - A company appointed by the Management Company to conduct the day-to-day operations of the apartment complex, including budget, services and organization of mettings etc.

So all apartments will have a management company but some apartments choose not to appint managing agents and perform these duties themselves.

Sorry if this is stating the bloody obvious but some posters seems to confuse these two terms.

magpie · 04-01-2005 11:38am

There seems to be some confusion over terms in some of these posts.

Management Company - Company owned by the owners of the apartment complex. This company has a board of directors usually appointed from among the owners (and developers in the early years).

Managment Agents - A company appointed by the Management Company to conduct the day-to-day operations of the apartment complex, including budget, services and organization of mettings etc.

So all apartments will have a management company but some apartments choose not to appint managing agents and perform these duties themselves.

Sorry if this is stating the bloody obvious but some posters seems to confuse these two terms.

Erm, didn't I just say that?

capistrano · 04-01-2005 12:29pm

magpie wrote:

Erm, didn't I just say that?

Oops! It seems you did. I really should read on before posting.

Automan · 06-01-2005 10:42am

There seems to be a lot of wire crossing here, most of the people who seem to be having problems with there management agents cant vote them out as the builders seem to be holding out finishing up the developments so as the residents cannot take over the hire/firing of the management agents. So they chose who the management agents are, most likely friends/family or they are getting some slice of the money in some form or another.

In this circumstance if you were to try and bring the management company to court would it not be the shareholders i.e. the builders you’re bringing to court not the apartment/house owners?

Also fair play to SMcCarrick for the work your doing looking after the management of your area, but did you not have a previous management agent looking after your area? Were you not happy with this company is this why you took over.
Must point out that where you are living I’m sure the people are getting value for money i.e. if you have window cleaning as an expense then people are getting there windows cleaned unlike it would seem with most of the other management agents. So if people are being charged for these services and never get these services the only place the money could be going is in to the pockets of the owners of the management agents and not into the services they are suppose to be providing.
Realistically they are robbing us legally and if we try to withhold the money to try and get these company to do the work we get threatened with legal action!!
What is the government doing??

Also I live in a house and I have to pay for a management agent that does nothing. Management Companies for houses seems to be becoming the norm now with more new estates being built and ran by management companies. Why is the council not looking after these areas, we pay taxes for this purpose also.

magpie · 06-01-2005 10:47am

Why is the council not looking after these areas, we pay taxes for this purpose also.

Normally there is a handover to the council after 3/5 years of being run by a management agent, which should be paid for by the builders. AFAIK the development has to be up to a certain standard before council will step in (i.e. everything that is going to be built is built, the roads and lighting are all good)

The_Conductor · 06-01-2005 11:28am

Automan wrote:

Also fair play to SMcCarrick for the work your doing looking after the management of your area, but did you not have a previous management agent looking after your area? Were you not happy with this company is this why you took over.
Must point out that where you are living I’m sure the people are getting value for money i.e. if you have window cleaning as an expense then people are getting there windows cleaned unlike it would seem with most of the other management agents. So if people are being charged for these services and never get these services the only place the money could be going is in to the pockets of the owners of the management agents and not into the services they are suppose to be providing.
Realistically they are robbing us legally and if we try to withhold the money to try and get these company to do the work we get threatened with legal action!!
What is the government doing??

Yes, we did have a management company- and got fed up to the gills with them.

We hold an AGM (thinking of February) to agree an Programme of Activities for the coming year. One problem is that the residents want to attend the meeting- when in fact the landlords are members of the management company- and not the tenants (most the properties being let out, owner occupiers being in the minority).

We seek a mandate on an annual basis for-

1) Programme of Activities
2) To levy the Management fee
3) To elect (or re-elect) a management committee
4) To pass our previous years accounts
5) To answer any queries that parties may have.

To be perfectly honest- it is quite time consuming, and as its done entirely voluntarily- a lot of people are not interested in playing their part, which is very annoying for the rest of us who are left to carry the can.

There are a number of activities that are done all the time, regardless of any special measures that may be decided at the AGM. These would include-

Window cleaning twice a year (there are 30 houses, at present it costs us almost Euro 2000- which we feel is excessive, but alternative quotes are similar). (We normally get the gutters cleaned by the same contractor).

Refuse- we registered as a business with South Dublin County Council and share 10 regular wheelie bins between the 30 apartments. This came to almost Euro 4000 last year. In addition we spent about Euro 1000 on 3 skips to clear non-wheelie bin disposable rubbish at various times throughout the year.

Electrics- lighting and general complex electrics- we have a local electrician on call, who will solve any problems encountered, normally within a few hours. Annually, depending on hard-ware replacement, this could amount to 2-3,000 for the complex.

Grounds upkeep- landscaping, laying of poison, general care of the grounds- could be up to Euro 2000.

Buildings insurance- our biggest expense. Following a few claims for fire damage and burst pipes etc- its not cheap.

Getting our annual accounts audited- perhaps 2 or 3 hours work- but it costs us about Euro 1000 (which is rip-off).

Strictly speaking- no member of the management company is within their right to withhold their annual charge from the company, providing the charge was passed by a valid quorum at the AGM. Your lease (a 900 year lease in a lot of cases) can be summarily terminated (not that I have ever heard of this happening anywhere) if payment is withheld. Additional administrative charges may be levied on those who withhold charges- i.e. if it costs 65 Euro to send a solicitors letter to a tardy owner- that cost is associated solely with a particular person, there is no good reason that everyone should pay.

Its no fun and games doing the whole lot for yourself, and you get absolutely nothing but hassle from residents and owners alike. These self-same people you will note- will also be the last people to volunteer to helpout the following year, with anything- which makes their criticisms particularly galling.

Automan- in a lot of cases there is a preliminary agreement between the builder of the complex (a temporary lease) which states the timeframe allowed for the builder to hand over the complex to the management company (or in some cases- hand over control of the management company to the members of the management company- the owners of the individual units). This is seperate to the leasehold agreements that individual purchasers may have for their properties, and may be registered in the companies office. Have a check- if it is available- it might make interesting reading for you. If the builder is in breach of the terms of the covenant under which the complex is being developed, it may be possible to pursue him down legal avenues (through the management company, or otherwise).

Its not easy doing it yourself- I spent hours on the phone yesterday on hold for South Dublin Co.Co., an electrician, Dejay alarms, National Automation and a few others sorting out niggling bits and pieces. I regularly have to take half days off work to sort out things (meet with our bank/accountant/solicitor/electrician/security whatever-) these are all entirely on my own time, for which I get no recompense. It is not something to undertake lightly.

A lot of the bigger expenses related to property management (in particular buildings insurance) have fallen in the last year or two. We hope to be able to reduce the charges for our complex by a commensurate amount to the owners this year- perhaps charging an annual fee of 1,000 Euro (down 150 Euro on last year). Any excess generated goes into a sink fund which normally gets spent on painting and general buildings repair on a 4 or 5 year cycle.

While it might seem nice to get to take things into your own hands- be warned, it is a lot of work, its voluntary, its a thankless task for which you will get nothing but hassle, its not something that you should think about lightly.

Victor · 06-01-2005 3:42pm

smccarrick wrote:

One problem is that the residents want to attend the meeting

Then they should form a separate resident's committee and if necessary ask their landlord(s) if they can stand in for them (doubtful).

If a lot of the properties are let out, then you are giving those landlords a tax-free free-ride.

The_Conductor · 06-01-2005 7:24pm

Victor wrote:

Then they should form a separate resident's committee and if necessary ask their landlord(s) if they can stand in for them (doubtful).

If a lot of the properties are let out, then you are giving those landlords a tax-free free-ride.

Tax free- as in their management charges are deductible against their rental income for tax purposes- but the net effect is a reduction in overall income- so its hardly a free-ride, but I do know what you mean.

Those renting can claim a tax credit against their rent (which is a pittance in all honesty- think it works out at less than 300 Euro into your hand) the worst off are the owner occupiers. All they can do with their management charge is (providing they have the documentation) offset up to 196 Euro of the charge towards refuse charges- at the marginal rate- i.e. claiming back 40 Euro from the tax man.

Yes- its not fair. I know it. There should be a much bigger tax credit towards those who are renting- but I would leave the management charge as an allowable expense for those who are letting out their properties- as it is an unavoidable expense incurred associated with a particular property. Landlords are already taxed on income foregone when properties are vacant, so quid-pro-quo.

You know, the only person who really benefits out of any of this is the tax-man......

Ardent · 07-01-2005 10:10am

smccarrick wrote:

Those renting can claim a tax credit against their rent (which is a pittance in all honesty- think it works out at less than 300 Euro into your hand) the worst off are the owner occupiers. All they can do with their management charge is (providing they have the documentation) offset up to 196 Euro of the charge towards refuse charges- at the marginal rate- i.e. claiming back 40 Euro from the tax man.

Shane,

I'm an owner occupier and my management fee is 1200-odd. Just to clarify, are you saying that it's pretty much pointless trying to get tax relief on the fee, that the relief you'd get would be as marginal as what you posted above?

The_Conductor · 07-01-2005 10:22am

Thats my understanding of it (I checked with my brother who is a tax consultant). Whereas landlords can offset the charge against rental income, as a primary residence- you or I are not entitled to do so (as we are not renting out our properties- we're living in them). I have drawn up notes and stamped them with our management company seal for the 5 owner occupiers (including myself) in our complex, stating that X amount of the fee is related to refuse charges. In theory our accounts could be checked to confirm this is the case, but it has not happened to date.

Yes, it is an unequitable treatment of people- and an effective subsidisation of the rental sector by the revenue commissioners. I know its not fair- believe you me, I do. Is there a solution though? Not allowing the charge as an expense for landlords would merely be a pretence- and as an owner occupier you or I would be no better off anyhow. The introduction of a tax credit specifically towards management charges might be counter productive- even if it were welcome.

For all intensive purposes it is yet another stealth tax, a form of property tax- and a bloody big one at that.

S.

The_Conductor · 07-01-2005 10:24am

To be perfectly honest- if you were renting the accomodation- as opposed to owner occupying it- you would be entitled to claim rental relief at the marginal rate- which could be worth about 400 Euro back to you. It doesn't make sense that owner occupiers are being discriminated against in this manner......

Ardent · 07-01-2005 10:29am

Another thing Shane:

Where we are, we have about 10 skips in the basement for refuse. I got a couple of letters from Dublin Co Council looking for money for refuse disposal. I just ignored them coz as far as I was concerned I'm aleady paying for refuse disposal through my crazy management fee! Am I not right?

Victor · 07-01-2005 11:19pm

smccarrick wrote:

I have drawn up notes and stamped them with our management company seal for the 5 owner occupiers (including myself) in our complex

Be wary of using the company seal so "frivilously".

and an effective subsidisation of the rental sector by the revenue commissioners.

You forget mortgage interest relief can be worth several thousand(?) euros per year, whereas rent relief is worth only €300 per year.

The_Conductor · 07-01-2005 11:49pm

Re: Certificate from the Management company denoting that portion of the charge associated with refuse disposal- I checked it with a professional tax consultant (a friend) to make sure it was in order.

I know the mortgage interest relief is helpful- but for young first time buyers- welcome as it is, its only a very small help- its very difficult for anyone to manage to buy anything anymore (especially given the salaries here).
For most people- be they tenants or owner occupiers, paying their monthly rent or their monthly mortgage is a monthly struggle. Certainly you can argue that at very least those with mortgages will eventually own their own houses after 35 years (or whatever timescale). In the case of 2 of the owner occupiers here- they are paying interest only mortgages for 5 years, or in other cases- family members have acted as guarantors.

The whole system is so screwed up. I've wandered off topic, so I'll leave it at that.

S.

badbrian · 10-01-2005 2:14pm

Ardent wrote:

Another thing Shane:

"Where we are, we have about 10 skips in the basement for refuse. I got a couple of letters from Dublin Co Council looking for money for refuse disposal. I just ignored them coz as far as I was concerned I'm aleady paying for refuse disposal through my crazy management fee! Am I not right?

I thought the same with my charge but I then checked and saw there was no provision in the fee for Waste Disposal. You could check your charge or contact your management agents.

The_Conductor · 10-01-2005 2:23pm

Surely the Management Company organises the waste disposal? Who ordered in the skips and organised that they be collected?

An idea of what you can expect to pay- about Euro 375 per 240 litre wheelie bin, per annum (South Dublin Co.Co. figures).

Find out who organised the skips and take it up with them. Often the council may indiscriminately send mail to 'everyone' advising them re their refuse charges, regardless of whether or not they are already being covered by an alternate source.

Give the Environment Waste Unit of your local council a call if you are unable to get a satisfactory answer from your Management Company, they should be in a position to enlighten you as to the state of affairs.

S.

badbrian · 10-01-2005 5:04pm

I may be mistaken but I was reading Ardent's skips as bins as it wouldn't seem to make sense to be using 10 skips for refuse. We paid our refuse charges separately last year to Dublin Co. Council (this year it will be incorporated into our management fee). And as Ardent has already had letters about this I am guessing it relates to last year. So I thought it might be the same scenario. My charge last year was c. €160.
It's easily checked.

The_Conductor · 10-01-2005 9:47pm

Finally some news of interest- South Dublin Co.Co. are offering a 20% discount on refuse collections in apartment complexes when collections are organised through the management company.......
Fee is 350 Euro per 240 litre wheelie bin, less 20% i.e. Euro 280 per annum.
70 quid is 70 quid regardless of how you look at it.

If you itemise the bill and denote that part which relates to refuse collection you'll get about another 40 Euro back from the Revenue Commissioners- thats 110 Euro......

It all adds up!

All I need now is a few more ways to shave a few more Euro off the bills.....

badbrian · 17-01-2005 1:13pm

Shane

Can you advise how you found this out. I asked Fingal Co. Council and they don't seem to be doing this.

Thanks

Brian

The_Conductor · 17-01-2005 1:27pm

They sent me a circular stating this. (Popped it in the door randomly)
PM me a fax number and I'll dig it out and fax it over to you.

S.

ur mentor · 17-01-2005 2:27pm

Does anyone now what managing agents charge?
IF the levy is €1200 how much goes directly to them?
Some of the levy goes to insurance, waste, ESB accountants etc

pollyantic · 11-02-2005 9:30am

According to the accounts for Applewood in Swords KPM get about €25K per year ...... For nothing as far as i'm concerned.

leonlafrite · 11-02-2005 10:23am

You know that it is not that hard to change managment company....
just have to get the owner commitee organised.
We have just "sacked" KPM after 2 years.
During the last EGM, we had a vote of "no confidence" against them and that was it...

joe33 · 18-02-2005 12:08am

find out when you have your AGM. At the the agm the agenda will include election of management company directors. every year some directors have to resign and every shareholder is entitled to become a director, all you have to do is be nominated and seconded by another member. you can have as many directors as the number of shareholders.

you could also call a egm for the purpose.

then you sign a CRO b10 form and lodge it with the companies register office.
this takes about 2 months to go through, then you are a director. the directors basically employ the agents so you can hire/fire agents.

apply to the bank to have the signatories changed on your companies account, directors can then sign cheques.

a lot of fairly new management companies account would still have the builders signing the cheques i.e. spending your money.

when you get control of the cheque book unscrupulous agents realise their game is up. you control their expenditure and what they can pocket from you.

el Bastardo · 26-02-2005 2:43am

Welcome to Irish apartments. I've the same problem. In fact, it's now 01:43 and my lovely (African) neighbours two floors up are having YET another weekend long party.

cormie · 26-02-2005 2:50am

el Bastardo wrote:

(African)

?

The Mega **Management Company** thread

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The Mega Management Company thread