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Primary school college course and atheism

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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    fair point about lead in time, but surely between 2011 and 2014 Hibernian would have looked into it, not impressed by Hibernian
    Oh, I'm with you there. You may like or dislike the influence the Catholic church has on education in Ireland, but as far as Hibernia are concerned that's neither here nor there. If they're in the business of providing qualifications to equip people to teach in Irish schools, then a pretty basic minimum is that they should be aware of the qualifications which the market requires, and that they should either offer them or make it clear at the outset to prospective students that they don't offer them. They don't seem to have done either of these things.

    The obvious solution is to offer the certificate as a stand-alone postgraduate course. In fact SFAIK this is already available (though not through Hibernia) for the benefit of teachers who qualified abroad, but who wish to relocate to Ireland. Hibernia is (presumably) moving to offer an approved certificate to current and future students, and my guess is that the college will come under pressure from its own recent graduates (and from their union?) also to offer a "conversion" module that its recent graduates can take so that they, too, can the religion component of the degree they have already taken upgraded to an approved certificate.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    a "conversion" module that its recent graduates can take...
    What's your opinion on using the existing Hibernia cert to teach the RC religion programme in an ETB primary school?
    Obviously it depends on the employer, but the employer would not be obliged to accept only the newer approved certs, would they?

    And then there is the question of established teachers in RC schools. None of them will have approved certs. Will they have to upgrade or convert their certs?


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    What's your opinion on using the existing Hibernia cert to teach the RC religion programme in an ETB primary school?
    Obviously it depends on the employer, but the employer would not be obliged to accept only the newer approved certs, would they?
    No. Employers can form their own view as to the qualifications they value and/or demand. Take religion out of the question for the moment; if I'm hiring, say, a software writer I am free (a) to specify that candidates should have at least a relevant bachelor's degree (thus excluding those who only have a certificate) and (b) to prefer the candidate whose degree comes from University of X over the candidate with a degree from University of Y, because I have a high regard for the quality of the University of X degree.

    It's no different when you bring religion back in. Any school is free to hire qualified teachers whether or not they have an approved religion certificate. But equally any school is free to required the approved religion certificate, or to prefer the candidate who has it over the candidate who hasn't. And if a significant number of schools do take that position, that something that teacher training colleges should know about, and they should either offer that qualification, or let prospective students know that they don't offer it.

    I do not know whether the ETB schools will demand an approved religion certificate. I doubt it. But it's conceivable that a candidate with an approved certificate will, all other things being equal, have an edge over the candidate that doesn't, if the approved certificate is in fact the better-credentialled qualification. (The approved certificate has to be at least a level 7 on the NQAI framework, has to be validated by extern examiners, has to involve at least a set number of contact hours, etc, etc, so it's conceivable that on purely pedagogic grounds it will be a more attractive qualification than an unapproved certificate which may not have the same characteristics.)
    recedite wrote: »
    And then there is the question of established teachers in RC schools. None of them will have approved certs. Will they have to upgrade or convert their certs?
    They might be encouraged to, I don't know, but I doubt that they will have to. They have already been hired, and you can't really fire somebody on the basis that he has failed to obtain a qualification which you didn't require him to have when you hired him.

    By way of analogy, my sister-in-law qualified as a primary teacher (in Australia) many years ago, when the qualification was a three-year course. More recently, the qualification was upgraded to a four-year course, so younger teachers all have a four-year B.Ed. She didn't have to upgrade, but she (and many of her colleagues) chose to do so, on the basis that they would enhance their professional status and improve their promotion prospects by getting the better qualification. (Plus, the Education Department facilitated their upgrading by giving them study leave, paid their fees, etc).

    Similarly, again in Australia, lots of already-qualified primary teachers take an additional qualification in religious education in order to enhance their employability in the Catholic education system (which comprises about 25% of primary school places). Some of them actively aim to work in the Catholic system; others are simply keeping their options open.

    So, something like that could happen here. If there's a career advantage to having this particular qualification, people will take the qualification even if not required to. The fact that it's a qualification in teaching religion in particular doesn't really change the basic dynamic that's at work here.

    But, of course, this is a qualification focussed on the teaching of religion, which is only a small part of the work of most primary teachers. So even if this dynamic does operate, it's not going to be a very big factor. Not many appointment/promotion decisions are going to come down to which candidate is the better-qualified religion teacher.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Good points, they make sense.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Bishops approve Hibernia College’s religious training programme
    Private teacher training college Hibernia has received approval from the Catholic bishops for its religious education programme, removing any doubt about whether its graduates can teach in Catholic schools. At its autumn meeting last week, the Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference approved what it called a “revised proposal” by Hibernia College to be included on a register of accredited courses.

    Concerns were raised over the summer after a graduate seeking employment circulated a letter from a Catholic employer saying Hibernia’s religious diploma was not recognised by the Irish Episcopal Conference. Hibernia subsequently applied to be included on the list, which was first drawn up in 2011.

    In a statement, the bishops said a working group established by its council for catechetics had explored submissions to its “Recognition of qualifications to teach Religious Education in Catholic Primary Schools”, and it was deemed that the most recent submission by Hibernia College met the requirements as set out by this document. Hibernia’s religious education programme was designed in partnership with retired Maynooth professor of moral theology Fr Vincent Twomey.

    It ran into controversy in 2012 when Atheist Ireland claimed a number of lecture slides contained “untrue statements” about atheism, prompting the college to remove the material. Meanwhile, the Catholic Primary School Management Association (CPSMA) has issued a statement to boards of management, clarifying how to carry out elections this month.

    It follows a claim made by a primary school principal that the issue of whether unmarried parents should be allowed to be nominated had been raised at board level, and that advice had been sought from the CPSMA. The claim had been made in an online forum for members of the Irish Primary Principals Network (IPPN).

    The IPPN said it subsequently spoke to the principal and he acknowledged the information he posted was incorrect and that the CPSMA was never contacted on the matter. In a statement, the CPSMA said: “It is not the role of the school to seek clarification on marital status, the procedures make no reference to whether parents are married or unmarried.”

    New boards for the State’s 3,200 primary schools will be appointed by December 1st under a nomination process that takes place every four years. Minister for Education and Skills Jan O’Sullivan has introduced new election procedures this year whereby schools can circulate a list of the names of all parents to each household inviting them to nominate candidates. The aim is to broaden the field of potential candidates, and attract individuals who might not normally be involved in parents’ groups.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,739 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    robindch wrote: »
    Bishops approve Hibernia College’s religious training programme
    article link
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/bishops-approve-hibernia-college-s-religious-training-programme-1.2378656
    and CPSMA statement http://cpsma.ie/election-of-parent-nominees-to-the-board-of-management/
    Meanwhile, the Catholic Primary School Management Association (CPSMA) has issued a statement to boards of management, clarifying how to carry out elections this month.

    Unmarried parents
    It follows a claim made by a primary school principal that the issue of whether unmarried parents should be allowed to be nominated had been raised at board level, and that advice had been sought from the CPSMA.
    recently guy telling me as a step dad, a catholic school wouldn't engage with him in relation to his step-children


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,649 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Minister for Education and Skills Jan O’Sullivan has introduced new election procedures this year whereby schools can circulate a list of the names of all parents to each household inviting them to nominate candidates.

    The aim is to broaden the field of potential candidates, and attract individuals who might not normally be involved in parents’ groups.

    Wait, what!?!

    Schools should have no right to do this. My data protection rights don't disappear just because I have a child enrolled in school.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recently guy telling me as a step dad, a catholic school wouldn't engage with him in relation to his step-children
    "Catholic" may be a giant red herring there; this may have nothing to do with the patronage of the school. Legally, he's not related to the children in question; they have a mother and a father, and he is neither. Nor is he their guardian. The children's father might strongly object to the school engaging with the stepfather in relation to the children.

    The last thing the school wants is to be dropped into some toxic family row. They are mostly going to take care to respect the legalities of the situation, which is that a stepfather is not related to the children and has no right to be involved in decisions about them.

    Why would he expect the school to engage with him about the children? Is there some special circumstance that you have not mentioned?


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Wait, what!?!

    Schools should have no right to do this. My data protection rights don't disappear just because I have a child enrolled in school.
    Good point.

    Here in Australia, when my child was enrolled in the local primary school, I was given a booklet listing the name of every child in the school, the class each child was in, their parents' names and (if supplied) their parents mobile numbers. The idea was to facilitate the development of a school community - make it easy to contact the parents of your child's friends, that kind of thing.

    It was, to be honest, extremely useful, perhaps especially for me as a newly-arrived migrant with no existing social network. But, yes, it did strike me that Australian data protection standards must be extraordinarily low.

    In fairness, I can't recall whether part of the mountain of paperwork we filled out in connection with enrolling the child included ticking a box to assent to being included in the booklet; perhaps it did. But if it did everyone must have ticked the box; I never failed to find any parent's name and contact details when I looked.

    On edit: Following through the links provided by expectationlost, it seems that before circulating a list of names of parents the Board of Management is to invite parents to consent to having their names included in the list. So your name will only be supplied to other parents if you agree to its being supplied.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,739 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    "Catholic" may be a giant red herring there; this may have nothing to do with the patronage of the school. Legally, he's not related to the children in question; they have a mother and a father, and he is neither. Nor is he their guardian. The children's father might strongly object to the school engaging with the stepfather in relation to the children.

    The last thing the school wants is to be dropped into some toxic family row. They are mostly going to take care to respect the legalities of the situation, which is that a stepfather is not related to the children and has no right to be involved in decisions about them.

    Why would he expect the school to engage with him about the children? Is there some special circumstance that you have not mentioned?
    not sure he wasn't a guardian


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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    not sure he wasn't a guardian
    It would be highly unusual, I'd have to say, if the children's mother and father were both still living. Plus, if he was a guardian, I can't see why the school wouldn't engage with him.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,739 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Wait, what!?!

    Schools should have no right to do this. My data protection rights don't disappear just because I have a child enrolled in school.
    badly worded sentence I hope

    http://cpsma.ie/category/categories/boards-of-management-2015-2019/
    Template Letters For Nomination/Election Of Parent Nominees To The Board Of Management


    • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Please find attached Consent Form. If you think that you will be nominated at the meeting and are willing to put your name forward for election as parent nominee to the Board of Management, please complete, sign and date the Consent Form and return it to the school no later than [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](insert date). [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Only tick the box if you are happy for the information that relates to that box to be sent to other parents. If your spouse/partner (being a parent of a child in the school) wishes to be nominated s/he must furnish the school with a separate Consent Form) [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]


  • Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭Queenalocin


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Good point.

    Here in Australia, when my child was enrolled in the local primary school, I was given a booklet listing the name of every child in the school, the class each child was in, their parents' names and (if supplied) their parents mobile numbers. The idea was to facilitate the development of a school community - make it easy to contact the parents of your child's friends, that kind of thing.

    It was, to be honest, extremely useful, perhaps especially for me as a newly-arrived migrant with no existing social network. But, yes, it did strike me that Australian data protection standards must be extraordinarily low.

    In fairness, I can't recall whether part of the mountain of paperwork we filled out in connection with enrolling the child included ticking a box to assent to being included in the booklet; perhaps it did. But if it did everyone must have ticked the box; I never failed to find any parent's name and contact details when I looked.

    On edit: Following through the links provided by expectationlost, it seems that before circulating a list of names of parents the Board of Management is to invite parents to consent to having their names included in the list. So your name will only be supplied to other parents if you agree to its being supplied.

    We got booklets like that when our children started in primary school, best resource ever! It was great way for everyone to get to know each other and the kids. The option to be included was given when we were filling out details at the first school meeting in the May before they started.


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