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A Mere Mention of Abortion.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,680 ✭✭✭confusticated


    But not for the baby obviously :(

    I am a female and have just had a baby and dont think it was my right to abort the baby given it was a product of both my partner and i and his view had to come into it.

    If I didnt want the baby I would have had it solely on the basis he would take over full responsibility for it once born.

    What if that couldn't be ensured though? For anyone who does have the baby on the basis of the father caring for it, it must be awfully difficult to be sure he will actually do that and she won't be left bringing up the baby after all. And she'd still have to go through the pregnancy and possibly (in Ireland I would say probably) be judged for not wanting to be part of the baby's life once she'd had it. It's very hard to go through that if you really don't want a baby I'd imagine.

    Some of the stories here are so sad, fair play to anyone who was able to share theirs, I can't imagine the courage it must take.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Tea 1000


    lazygal wrote: »
    That was your choice.


    Choice being the operative word.


    If a woman became pregnant through rape and the rapist wanted the child would you think it's ok for him to make such a demand?
    Do you think choice is only OK in rape situations or in all situations? I suspect all situations, in which case I'd ask why only quiz her on rape?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Tea 1000 wrote: »
    Do you think choice is only OK in rape situations or in all situations? I suspect all situations, in which case I'd ask why only quiz her on rape?



    All situations. But I'd like to hear about what she'd do if pregnant as a result of rape. The OP can respond about what she'd do, as she said she'd bear a child she didn't want for a man who did want to raise it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Tea 1000 wrote: »
    Do you think choice is only OK in rape situations or in all situations? I suspect all situations, in which case I'd ask why only quiz her on rape?

    Surely likewise why only use a situation where there is a willing father or a pregnant women willing to go to term to argue against? It's back to using specific and emotive situations to try to argue blanket for or against when it's patently obvious there are a huge range of situations/ethical considerations/personal & religious views in which pregnancy/abortion is undertaken.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Tea 1000


    Surely likewise why only use a situation where there is a willing father or a pregnant women willing to go to term to argue against? It's back to using specific and emotive situations to try to argue blanket for or against when it's patently obvious there are a huge range of situations/ethical considerations/personal & religious views in which pregnancy/abortion is undertaken.
    Very true, and boards.ie isn't big enough to discuss them all!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    Posters this is not the thread for discussing these what ifs... A lot of the posters here already have made the choice to have an abortion, and this thread has been somewhere where they, myself included, have shared their stories..
    If you want to talk about bodily privacy, or get a sly dig in about a foetuses right to life, or abortion for rape. victims start your own thread..


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    But not for the baby obviously :(

    It's not a baby, it's an embryo or a foetus depending on it's gestational stage. Once it's born it's a baby and no one is allowed abort babies.

    I'm a female and I'm pregnant and I'm completely in love my 'baby' but it's not a baby. It's a foetus with mental facilities that don't yet rival a worm's. And if I didn't love it or want it or choose it nobody has the right to insist I put my body through what has so far been a hellish experience for the sake of what is not yet another human being.

    And in fact nobody could or would insist I put my body through any type of trauma for the sake of a living baby. If the baby needed a blood transfusion and I didn't want to donate it, I wouldn't be compelled to, even if I was the baby's only hope. And donating blood has nothing on pregnancy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    If the right to life trumps a parents right to bodily autonomy, then should I have the right to legally force my mother to donate a liver or a pint of blood or bone marrow? Sure donating a liver is a little risky, as is pregnancy, but donating blood and bone marrow are almost completely risk free. So do I have the right to legally force my mother to donate blood, liver or bone marrow?

    If not then why did I have the right to force my mom to carry me for 9 months and undergo a pretty difficult medical procedure when she gave birth to me, when I don’t have the right to even force her to donate a drop of blood. When did I lose my control over her bodily autonomy and by what right did I have it in the first place?

    If I had lymphoma, for example, I might require full body irradiation and then require a transplant of bone marrow, which requires a pretty exact match in order to avoid graft versus host, usually achieved by taking bone marrow from a next of kin, in order to live. So it’s possible that my life is dependant on my mother making the choice to donate bone marrow. Yet I do not, and should not, have the right to violate her right to bodily autonomy and force her to donate a single drop of blood, even if it comes at the cost of my life.
    Tea 1000 wrote: »
    he is of the opinion that the developing life has equal right to life.
    The point is that the pro-life movement aren’t asking for the rights we afford to living sentient people be equally afforded to fetuses, or even embryos. They are asking for rights that we do not, and should not, afford to people, to violate the right to bodily autonomy of others, be given and executed on behalf of, to put it bluntly, a bunch of cells without even a brain stem simply on the grounds that it will develop one in the future. And that’s not even the worst of it. In this country we are willing to violate the woman’s right to bodily autonomy even if the fetus isn't viable.
    If you want to talk about bodily privacy, or get a sly dig in about a foetuses right to life, or abortion for rape. victims start your own thread..
    Oops, sorry for posting before I saw you were trying to drag the thread back on topic...


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    hattoncracker if you have an issue with a post then please feel free to report the post, not back seat mod the thread. Thanks

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭Rothmans


    Knasher wrote: »
    If the right to life trumps a parents right to bodily autonomy, then should I have the right to legally force my mother to donate a liver or a pint of blood or bone marrow? Sure donating a liver is a little risky, as is pregnancy, but donating blood and bone marrow are almost completely risk free. So do I have the right to legally force my mother to donate blood, liver or bone marrow?

    If not then why did I have the right to force my mom to carry me for 9 months and undergo a pretty difficult medical procedure when she gave birth to me, when I don’t have the right to even force her to donate a drop of blood. When did I lose my control over her bodily autonomy and by what right did I have it in the first place?

    Because your death is not caused as the direct result of another person's decision to terminate your life, but rather someone's decision to exercise their right to bodily integrity, which has no direct bearing on your right to life whatsoever. Your death is not caused by your mother's inactivity, it is caused by your own illness, old age, natural causes etc, which cannot be prevented, and not because of the actions of your mother, or anyone else who refused to donate organs to you. That is the fundamental difference to the two situations.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    Rothmans wrote: »
    Because your death is not caused as the direct result of another person's decision to terminate your life, but rather someone's decision to exercise their right to bodily integrity, which has no direct bearing on your right to life whatsoever. Your death is not caused by your mother's inactivity, it is caused by your own illness, old age, natural causes etc, which cannot be prevented, and not because of the actions of your mother, or anyone else who refused to donate organs to you. That is the fundamental difference to the two situations.
    There are some differences between the example I gave and abortion, obviously I can't come up with a related situation that overlaps exactly. In my hypothetical example, if my right to life is contingent on my ability to survive on my own. Then if a fetus is granted equal rights then it's right to life would similarly contingent, which is roughly the situation in countries where abortions are allowed up until the fetus has the ability to survive outside of the mother, and after that only in situations which are of the utmost medical necessity. Perhaps the fetus deserves greater rights than the right to life allows, however I have never heard the pro-life propose an argument in support of such. All I want to illustrate is that they are not asking for equal rights, even if that's how it is commonly phrased.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    There are many other threads on boards to argue the rights or wrongs of abortion, can you argue it there please and leave this thread free for women to "talk" without feeling even worse.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    BACK ON TOPIC. NO more backseat modding if you please.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Sorry Wibbs :o I couldn't help myself. I went from feeling supported to feeling like crap again in the space of two pages. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/government-td-blames-fornication-for-unwanted-pregnancies-548150.html
    A Fine Gael TD said today that fornication is the "most likely cause" of unwanted pregnancies in Ireland.

    Mayo TD Michelle Mulherin made the remarks during a debate on proposed abortion legislation in the Dáil.

    "Abortion, as murder, therefore sin, which is the religious argument, is no more sinful, from a scriptural point of view, than all other sins we don't legislate against, like greed, hate and fornication, the latter, being fornication, I would say, is probably the single most likely cause of unwanted pregnancies in this country," she said.

    I thought Oliver J. Flanagan rose from the dead:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_J._Flanagan

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,440 ✭✭✭✭Piste


    There are very few rights that supercede the right to life, and this is what makes the abortion debate so complex, so nuanced, and so difficult to reach a consensus about. The main divide in opinions comes down to the question of "when do we allow the rights of the woman to overcome the right to life of the baby/fetus?" (tbh I don't care about terminology but I'll say both no nobody gets their knickers in a twist).

    Does the right of the woman to not carry a fetus that won't survive outside the womb supercede the right of the fetus to ~9 months of life in utero? I would say yes, I don't see the problem with aborting a fetus that can't survive outside the womb, by forcing a woman to carry to term you're essentially treating her like a glorified incubator.

    Does the right of a woman who has been raped to not have to carry the product of that rape around with her supercede the right to life of the fetus/baby?

    Does the right of a woman who is suicidal due to an unwanted pregnancy supercede the right to life of the fetus/baby?

    Does the right of a woman not to have to carry an unwanted fetus/baby supercede the right to life of the fetus/baby, whatever her reason?

    If you believe that the right to life is the right upon which all other rights are predicated, it's really hard to answer yes to any of the above three questions (a bit easier for the first question as the woman never consented to become pregnant in the first place) so on paper it seems like abortion should be kept illegal, except when the fetus/baby will be stillborn or wont survive for long outside the womb. Intuitively though it's completely different and seems barbaric to force a woman to carry a fetus/baby she doesn't want. While it seems harsh to say the wishes of the woman to not be pregnant override the right to life of the fetus, I do think they're more important as the woman has an active interest in the quality of her life, the fetus doesn't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31 chocolategirl


    Well it can be kept illegal, however it will still happen. Abortion being illegal doesn't stop it from happening, its just makes the airlines and the clinics in the UK some money. And traumatises women some more. Thats all it really achieves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    Well it can be kept illegal, however it will still happen. Abortion being illegal doesn't stop it from happening, its just makes the airlines and the clinics in the UK some money. And traumatises women some more. Thats all it really achieves.

    I'm living proof of that!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31 chocolategirl


    Me too hun. I think this thread has been great, loads of healing and the amazingness of people has really shone through. Last page or two though, just upsetting :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    Me too hun. I think this thread has been great, loads of healing and the amazingness of people has really shone through. Last page or two though, just upsetting :(


    I know.. :-(

    I really didn't want it to get like this.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 833 ✭✭✭snafuk35


    This is an interesting video.

    A guy goes to a pro-life demonstration and asks the activists what penalties there should be for women who have illegal abortions.

    Enjoy! :D



    It's obvious to anyone who thinks about this issue for even a second without being blinded by bigotry that abortion should be a choice left to an individual woman to decide.

    I think abortion is appalling but it is not up to me to tell a woman what to do with her body.
    If she wants to keep or abort her baby is really up to her and nobody else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    Did anyone see the ladies on the late late on Friday? Im just watching it online now... Heartbreaking!


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Did anyone see the ladies on the late late on Friday? Im just watching it online now... Heartbreaking!

    I did and I am so in awe of them to talk so openly. That took real guts. I cringed at the use of the phrase "social abortion" though, while I understand the context I think it undermined and marginalised women who make that choice for other reasons.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31 chocolategirl


    I thought the ladies were amazing and although their situations are different to mine I could identify with that at times you could feel the pain even in their breathing. Thats how I feel. Didn't like the term social abortion either but it was only said to relay the difference in situations, not to hurt - but it did though!

    They were inspirational in every sense of the word and I admire their courage so so much. Lets not forget though that they dearly wanted to carry their babies to term and the circumstances in which they could not were so so tragic. Its appalling that they did not get the care and compassion they so deserved here in Ireland.

    And then again its just tragic full stop though isn't it, all the stories in this thread, all the pain women are going through.


  • Registered Users Posts: 180 ✭✭Jessica-Rabbit


    I would like some insight as to why women have abortions. I have posted this already on another abortion page on Boards but I hope its ok to post it here again,
    First of all NO woman in their right mind ever Wants to go through this however they find that this is the only solution they have under the circumstances be it .. their age ie too young or too old
    Have enough children and cannot cope with another child mentally or financially
    financial reasons
    lack of or no support
    Rape
    Mental health issues ect

    and it is all well and good to say 'well you should have been more careful in the first place' but sometimes contraception fails and to those who did not use any for whatever reason high in sight is all well and good. The reality is these women and in a very upsetting situation and they feel abortion is the only way to deal with it but they have to carry the grieve sense of loss and guilt for a very long time sometimes for the rest of their lives and when they hear or see pro lifers berating them and other women it just adds to the hurt and pain.

    And for those who ah sure you could give it up for adoption.. adoption is great but that too has its down sides,, it is a very very hard thing for a woman to carry her baby and then give the baby away, during the pregnancy the woman could become severely depressed maybe even suicidal if she feels she is being forced to give up her baby.
    Then there can be issues for the child who was given up, some children feel that they were not wanted by and some question their own identity. They may as adults fall in love with someone who could turn out to be their half brother or sister.
    So please take all of this into account before any of you berate any woman who has been through this. Regardless of what you may think it is not an easy quick fix but for some women it was the right thing for them. I know this because I was one of them. I now have a wonderful fiance and a beautiful baby girl so I have been very lucky but had I went through with my previous pregnancy several years ago my life may not have turned out how it is not

    Thanks for reading


  • Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭Cosmicfox


    Personally I'm pro-choice, used to be more pro-life until I saw that it just seemed to be more 'pro-birth'. I would say I'd never avail of abortion unless raped , in danger myself or if the baby was so disabled it would have no quality of life. I wouldn't look down on any woman who would have one due to financial reasons, if they felt the could not look after a child or any other reason. Their womb is their own, accidents happen,women aren't babyfactories and all that, I'm sure it's been said before. It wouldn't change my opinion of them.

    I can see where pro-lifers are coming from, as I used to be one but I just can't agree anymore. Nutcases like Youth defence don't help their cause but I understand they're not all like that.



    I think Ireland should introduce the same system as the UK's, since that is where we send all women who want an abortion so we may as well take care of our own instead of sending them across the sea and washing our hands of them. As abortion is going to happen regardless, it should be safe and available. I really doubt that many people would use it as a form of contraception as it's a very unpleasant experience. ANd I suspect those who would need one most often would be mothers who already have enough children and don't want anymore.

    Saying you can put them up for adoption or into care is a bit of a cop-out.

    Ireland needs to do something regarding abortion soon.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 930 ✭✭✭poeticseraphim


    I had not checked this thread ...I am just about done with abortion.

    But I am glad i did.


    You guys have made me feel like I am not an alien in Ireland:-) Thanks.

    The thing is with genuine pro-lifers ..is you never hear them condemn...they just don't condone....

    It is an industry at this stage worth millions there is an international pro-life industry.


    I am pro-choice.


    I notice in other countries the pro-choice lobby is louder and unafraid.


    I am just loud and unafraid in general.

    I have never been pregnant but friends of mine have had abortions. And it is so strange the process in Ireland and needlessly dangerous.

    People are in denial about how many women do have them here .

    Does anyone else notice a change in demographic of pro-lifers...more often they are men now...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    When I started this thread, I was kind of an idealist, tbh. I thought that all of the ladies who appeared on the LL show would have been listened to and things would have been changed.

    And since all of that, I've just become so disillusioned by the whole situation. I knew that what happened to Savita would be the only thing that would shake anyone into action. And I'm reading all the other threads in AH and other websites and not even shocked that people don't realise how bad things are here if complications arise during a pregnancy, even women.

    I feel like maybe I should have done more, and I feel like Ireland failed her, and will continue to fail other women if things don't change.

    A lot of people think Mr Kenny is horrible for 'selling us out' to Germany, the ECB, etc. But from my limited knowledge of politics, it is my opinion that he had to do that, I feel sorry for him and the flack he takes for that, but making the tough decisions is never going to get you liked by the people you lead even if they are the right decisions-and the X Case legislation is the same situation. This shouldn't be allowed to happen and this has done a lot more to damage our reputation abroad in a week than our shítty credit rating has done in a long time.

    @poeticseraphim - Thank you for your lovely comments about this thread. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭JamJamJamJam


    I was part of a discussion about abortion last night. There were 10 or so people there, and I think I might have been the only person who was definitely pro-choice, despite my best efforts to convince them! Judging from that and the impression I've picked up in general, I don't think a system like that in the UK could become reality here in Ireland any time soon at all. I think that it should, though, and I'd love if more people understood why I think this, because as I see it, it just makes sense. That said, I don't know of anyone who doesn't agree that we should clarify the legislation on the X case, which is good, and surely now clearer legislation will be introduced soon.


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  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭Red Alert


    We should simply legislate for abortion on demand up to 10-12 weeks or so. I'd be quite against late-term by-choice abortions, but termination must always be an option for medical cases. The doctors need to be protected in a decision to terminate, so that they can make the best decision for the mother's health.


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