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What makes Israel so special

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Comments

  • #32
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    spottyelephant wrote: »
    I'm not pro Israel, but i'm strongly anti-people who are anti-Israel when it's the only place in the whole of the middle east I would confidently go to and not be worried about being shot at / abducted etc. It's the most (internally) stable state in the entire region and the most non-backward place - I've met Israelis in Thailand and all over Europe holidaying, playing sport etc, like a normal, developed country. They were all d/icks but so what. I'd rather be snubbed than blown up!

    Well, if you visited South Africa in 1980, I'm sure you'd have had a wonderful safe time too....


  • #33
    thirtythirty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭thirtythirty


    Nodin wrote: »
    Well, if you visited South Africa in 1980, I'm sure you'd have had a wonderful safe time too....

    Ye exactly, I wouldn't have. But i would now.


  • #34
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    What makes them special is that God promised them the land. A ringing endorsement if ever there was one.

    seriously though. Israel is regarded as very close to europe, almost a 28th state of the EU. They are a huge trading partner, initially a lot of their population came from europe etc.

    This is evidenced in the fact that they attend meetings of the European association of labour court judges, they're in the eurovision :D. As a result we see what they're up to as opposed to pariah states like north korea

    They seem to be under the impression that they are being unduly criticised and that they are recieve more criticism than other countries. Not true, as wes pointed out Iran are under sanctions. The hostility they recieve is because they act with percieved impunity which irks an awfull lot of people (not least the palestinians)


  • #35
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    spottyelephant wrote: »
    Ye exactly, I wouldn't have. But i would now.

    So the fact that this "safety" is bought at the expense of the oppression of millions bothers you not a jot then....?


  • #36
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    spottyelephant wrote: »
    I'm not pro Israel, but i'm strongly anti-people who are anti-Israel when it's the only place in the whole of the middle east I would confidently go to and not be worried about being shot at / abducted etc. It's the most (internally) stable state in the entire region and the most non-backward place - I've met Israelis in Thailand and all over Europe holidaying, playing sport etc, like a normal, developed country. They were all d/icks but so what. I'd rather be snubbed than blown up!

    You seem to have a fox news view of the middle east of a load of nutjobs with AK47s. Bahrain, Jordan, Oman and other states are perfectly safe. My flatmate recently returned from a trip to Jordan and Abu dhabi and said it was the safest place hes ever been.


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  • #37
    thirtythirty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭thirtythirty


    Nodin wrote: »
    So the fact that this "safety" is bought at the expense of the oppression of millions bothers you not a jot then....?

    The natural progression for any society throughout history is chaos -> oppression/surpression -> safety -> education -> equality.

    People are naive if they think everyone in the middle east will be able to "just get along".

    edit: sorry sensilbleken, the term of "middle east" is admittedly too large. Im talking about 5 or 6 places.


  • #38
    reprazant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭reprazant


    A bit like spottyelephant, I am not pro-Israel. I just get annoyed with people that are so anti-Israel that they cannot see anything other then the most basic black & white where Israel is bad all the time (according to some on the Conspiracy Theorys forum, Israel/Mossad seem to be behind pretty much all bad things)

    I am curious, if Israel was to get rid of the blockade (which they should), the wall, etc and then the rockets & suicide bombings start all over again, what do people think they should do?


  • #39
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    spottyelephant wrote: »
    The natural progression for any society throughout history is chaos -> oppression/surpression -> safety -> education -> equality.

    .

    There was nothing particularily "natural" about a bunch of Europeans jumping on a boat and taking the resources of other countries at gun point. There was certainly nothing natural about keeping people subjugated based on skin colour, anymore than there was here keeping people down based on religion.

    As regards Israel specifically, I see nothing "natural" about a first world nuclear power systematically colonising the land of a load of piss poor farmers, outside that powers legal borders.


  • #40
    Bebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭Bebs


    wes wrote: »
    Hamas came into existence in the late 80's and Israel actually helped create them:

    How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas

    Hamas are a product of Israeli policy, and many Pro-Israel people forget this.

    Also, Hamas's prominence has only come about in the last decade or so, most notably when they won democratic elections a few years ago. Before that Fatah were running the show for the most part.

    I'd totally agree and their rise to prominence has been fuelled by Israel. They'll continue to thrive if Israel continues to use extreme methods against the Palestinians. At the same time, threats from groups such as Hamas serve to reinforce the power of the hawks within the Israeli government. We saw it up in the North of Ireland too where two extremist groups in conflicting communities fed off the fear of each other in a mutually reinforcing cycle which marginalised moderates.


    No there not surrounded actually. Israel has peace deals with both Egypt and Jordan, and the entire Arab league has offered Israel peace, and normalizations into the region:

    Text: Arab peace plan of 2002

    No of course, instead of trying to work out the offered peace with the Arab league, Israel has instead chosen to steal more and more Palestinian land instead. IMHO, if Israel really wanted peace, they would have jumped at the chance that the Arab peace initiative offered, and in fact the peace offer still stands, and yet Israel continues down its current path.

    Israel shares a neighbourhood with Syria, the Lebanon, the Palestinians and Iran; all of whom it views as hostile to some extent as well as facing an increasingly hostile international community. If the Israeli people felt secure then they wouldn't keep voting for hawkish governments.

    It was the Palestinians who (rightly) pulled out of the last round of talks back in March. I agree that Israel could be doing far more to encourage peace but frankly it doesn't have to. So long as it has the support of the US it can continue to talk peace but terrorise the Palestinians and build new settlements. That's a course of action that the Israelis seem happy with for the moment.


  • #41
    Byron85
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭Byron85


    reprazant wrote: »
    A bit like spottyelephant, I am not pro-Israel. I just get annoyed with people that are so anti-Israel that they cannot see anything other then the most basic black & white where Israel is bad all the time (according to some on the Conspiracy Theorys forum, Israel/Mossad seem to be behind pretty much all bad things)

    But what about the people who are anti-Israeli policy after informing themselves via their own research into matters?? It's not a black and white conflict but there are aspects of it that are very much black and white. For example, has Israel dropped white phosphorus over civilian areas? Yes or no?? Yes it has. Has it stolen land illegally under international law?? Yes or no?? Yes it has.

    The above are just two examples.

    Now you are correct about people who consider Israel to be the root of all evil in the world. Now, that is racism and anti-semitism through sheer ignorance. Legitimately criticising Israeli polices is not racist or anti-semitic even though such critics tend to be thrown in with the former. Even former U.S President Jimmy Carter has been a victim of this.


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  • #42
    reprazant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭reprazant


    T.W.H Byron wrote: »
    But what about the people who are anti-Israeli policy after informing themselves via their own research into matters?? It's not a black and white conflict but there are aspects of it that are very much black and white. For example, has Israel dropped white phosphorus over civilian areas? Yes or no?? Yes it has. Has it stolen land illegally under international law?? Yes or no?? Yes it has.

    The above are just two examples.

    I know they are terrible thigns.

    But so are setting of bombs on crowded buses and in cafes.

    So is indiscriminately firing missiles onto towns.

    IMO, both sides do, and have done, terrible things to each other and now both seem entrenched in hatred for each other which seems to have no signs of abating.

    But, as I asked before, if Israel was to get rid of the blockade (which they should), the wall, etc and then the rockets & suicide bombings start all over again, what do people think they should do?


  • #43
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Bebs wrote: »
    Israel shares a neighbourhood with Syria, the Lebanon, the Palestinians and Iran; all of whom it views as hostile to some extent as well as facing an increasingly hostile international community. If the Israeli people felt secure then they wouldn't keep voting for hawkish governments.

    While, I understand what your getting at, I still see Israel view on the matter to not be based on reality. The Palestinians are hostile due to Israel aggression against them. Syria btw, also supported the Arab peace iniative, so there willing to make peace. Iran is under sanctions, and there is no actual evidence that they have a active nuclear weapons programs, and they have even said they would stand by any decision made by the Palestinians.

    In the West, Israel is welcomed by government with open arms, they are a part of numerous international organizaitons etc, and the worst that is done to them by Western government is a little bit of criticism, which isn't backed up with any actions.

    Israel is supported with billions from the US, perferential treatment from the EU in economic matters, and a first class military, and are armed with nuclear weapons. Every single Arab state has made a peace offer, which is still on the table. Its seems to me that Israel attitude about being surounded with no chance of peace is in there heads.


  • #44
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    reprazant wrote: »
    But, as I asked before, if Israel was to get rid of the blockade (which they should), the wall, etc and then the rockets & suicide bombings start all over again, what do people think they should do?

    Israels wall in the West Bank is not complete, and 1000's of Palestinian can get into Israel, so if a suicide bomber wanted to do so they could enter Israel:

    Israel's illegal Palestinian workforce

    The wall isn't complete by any means, and if Palestinians wanted to engage in suicide bombings in Israel, they could certainly do so.


  • #45
    Bebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭Bebs


    wes wrote: »
    While, I understand what your getting at, I still see Israel view on the matter to not be based on reality. The Palestinians are hostile due to Israel aggression against them. Syria btw, also supported the Arab peace iniative, so there willing to make peace. Iran is under sanctions, and there is no actual evidence that they have a active nuclear weapons programs, and they have even said they would stand by any decision made by the Palestinians.

    In the West, Israel is welcomed by government with open arms, they are a part of numerous international organizaitons etc, and the worst that is done to them by Western government is a little bit of criticism, which isn't backed up with any actions.

    Israel is supported with billions from the US, perferential treatment from the EU in economic matters, and a first class military, and are armed with nuclear weapons. Every single Arab state has made a peace offer, which is still on the table. Its seems to me that Israel attitude about being surounded with no chance of peace is in there heads.

    I agree with you. The reality is different to the Israeli view of the world but as far as motivating the electorate and dictating policy are concerned it's the Israeli view that counts.

    If the Israelis have no intention of getting into serious negotiations and everyone knows that then it costs nothing to support peace for the moment. It remains to be seen whether genuine attempts at rapprochement with Israeli can be sold to the Middle East outside of the political elites.

    The normal people of the Middle East have been fed on a diet of outrage at the very real atrocities committed by Israel. Governments and political organisations across the Middle East have used Israel as a populist piñata which they can bash to galvanise support amongst their own people. In that case the Arab world may not have left itself with much rhetorical and ideological room to manoeuvre in the case of a genuine attempt at peace.

    Edit: I don't think it would suit the particular hand that Hamas is playing to renew violence against Israel. That would dispel some of the dark cloud of international opinion that crackles and sparks above the heads of the Israelis and I think that Hamas are smart enough to know that international support is far more valuable that a few more martyrs.


  • #46
    reprazant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭reprazant


    wes wrote: »
    Israels wall in the West Bank is not complete, and 1000's of Palestinian can get into Israel, so if a suicide bomber wanted to do so they could enter Israel:

    Israel's illegal Palestinian workforce

    The wall isn't complete by any means, and if Palestinians wanted to engage in suicide bombings in Israel, they could certainly do so.

    Ok, what if missiles and suicide bombings started again.

    What do people think should Israel do?

    What if Israel did what everyone wanted but Israels fears were realised. How should they react?


  • #47
    Bebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭Bebs


    reprazant wrote: »
    Ok, what if missiles and suicide bombings started again.

    What do people think should Israel do?

    What if Israel did what everyone wanted but Israels fears were realised. How should they react?

    So did everyone else want Israel to starve Gaza and to continue building illegal settlements?


  • #48
    reprazant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭reprazant


    Bebs wrote: »
    So did everyone else want Israel to starve Gaza and to continue building illegal settlements?

    Where exactly did I say that?

    Why do you feel the need to answer a question with a question? A question that bares no relevance to what I asked.

    Edit: as I answer a question with question. *facepalm*


  • #49
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    reprazant wrote: »
    Ok, what if missiles and suicide bombings started again.

    What do people think should Israel do?

    What if Israel did what everyone wanted but Israels fears were realised. How should they react?

    I don't really deal in What If's, and the situation you describe isn't realistic in anyways. If suicide bombers wanted to attack Israel, the simple fact is that they could.


  • #50
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    reprazant wrote: »

    Why do you feel the need to answer a question with a question?

    lol


  • #51
    reprazant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭reprazant


    wes wrote: »
    I don't really deal in What If's, and the situation you describe isn't realistic in anyways. If suicide bombers wanted to attack Israel, the simple fact is that they could.

    True, and fair enough.

    The missiles bit isn't that unrealistic though.

    While the Gaza invasion was a massive overreaction, and massive disaster and failure, I am just curious as to how people think they should have reacted.

    It is quite easy to say what they should not do, slightly more difficult to say what they should do in situations such as that.


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  • #52
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    reprazant wrote: »

    It is quite easy to say what they should not do, slightly more difficult to say what they should do in situations such as that.

    Address the root cause. The root cause is not that the Palestinians have metal and chocolate or that theyre just mental. When you treat people like caged animals they will lash out.


  • #53
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    reprazant wrote: »
    It is quite easy to say what they should not do, slightly more difficult to say what they should do in situations such as that.

    Well, the thing is that rocket attacks were actually severly reduced during the ceasefire between, Israel and Hamas. Hamas stopped firing rockets, and were clamping down on those that did fire them.

    Also, remember Israel was meant to ease the siege at this time, and didn't do that either. So neither side were perfect in there adherence to the ceasefire.


  • #54
    Bebs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭Bebs


    Until both the Israelis and the Palestinians feel secure, both in terms of their immediate personal safety and the security of their future then there can be no sustainable peace. Brutalising the Palestinians pushes an ultimate peace further away.


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