Warrenpoint: A case of a Paramilitary force against a conventional army.

Wolfe Tone · 13-08-2010 7:56pm

troubleshooter wrote: »

Do the maths, there are three major routes in Newry, it was only a matter of time before an army or RUC vehicle passed by.

It was a well planned ambush, nothing more.

So then it was likely that the Army would pass by then. So by study of the BAs movements perhaps a pattern emerged, just as one existed of creating a command center.

Does anyone know what precautions he BA took after this in an attempt to prevent a repeat? Increased randomization of travel routes?

troubleshooter · 13-08-2010 8:26pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So then it was likely that the Army would pass by then. So by study of the BAs movements perhaps a pattern emerged, just as one existed of creating a command center.

Does anyone know what precautions he BA took after this in an attempt to prevent a repeat? Increased randomization of travel routes?

Roads in border areas were no longer used, the army used helos to move troops.

Watchtowers were built on high ground in border areas.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/in_pictures_british_army_watchtowers_in_northern_ireland/img/3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/in_pictures_british_army_watchtowers_in_northern_ireland/html/3.stm&usg=__xxePif-6BKwr-VuTgWv3a2RWyEQ=&h=400&w=600&sz=88&hl=en&start=0&tbnid=8UYz1meRYhLGEM:&tbnh=139&tbnw=208&prev=/images%3Fq%3Darmy%2Bwatchtower%2Bni%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26biw%3D1264%26bih%3D570%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C114&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=465&vpy=277&dur=201&hovh=139&hovw=208&tx=123&ty=91&ei=M51lTKe0IpT74AaE5rGhCg&oei=M51lTKe0IpT74AaE5rGhCg&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:14,s:0&biw=1264&bih=570

BlaasForRafa · 13-08-2010 11:30pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Well they had a reasonable idea that they would, and knew from previous incidents what would happen after the first detonation so thats how they knew were to place the second bomb.

I think its unlikely that there was no intelligence leak. I doubt they were there every day for say a week with two huge bombs without arousing suspicion.

They could have been watching that road for a week before the convoy took that particular route, its as much about patience as about anything else. Hanging around for a further 20 minutes to detonate the second bomb took nerve too, loath as I am to admit it.

troubleshooter · 13-08-2010 11:54pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

They could have been watching that road for a week before the convoy took that particular route, its as much about patience as about anything else. Hanging around for a further 20 minutes to detonate the second bomb took nerve too, loath as I am to admit it.

I double checked, it was 32 minutes from the first blast, they must have been very confident of their escape.

xflyer · 14-08-2010 12:56am

One of the things about the British army is that they never undersestimated their enemies. The second thing was that they learned quickly. My own experience of IRA men and ex British army is that they respect each other's abilities. Whatever the political differences. The British army knew their enemy. They have been around too long and seen too much action to be otherwise.

I have been in the same room as IRA and Brits comparing notes, with beer. It can be tense but it's nothing like the fantasists we often see here with their bigotry and certainty about what they believe it was like.

Manic Moran · 14-08-2010 6:45am

[mod]The next person who mentions the fisherman or Mountbatten or Bloody Sunday is going to get banned. It has little to do with the planning and execution of the attack [/mod]

Back on topic, IMO.

Not a 'Brilliant military operation'. Just a good plan, well executed. That's all you ever need to win a fight on average.

NTM

Terrontress · 14-08-2010 6:48am

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I posed the question about whether it was a brilliant tactical military exercise or did the BA mess up.

A brilliant tactical military exercise? Leaving a trailer full of explosive at the roadside for several days on the off chance that a military convoy would come past?

The risk to the public in that act was not justified at all and only a PIRA apologist could describe it as "brilliant".

What about Bloody Friday. Do you see that as a brilliant military exercise by a paramilitary force as well?

Wicklowrider · 14-08-2010 10:14am

If any of you are interested in humanising the incident you might want to read: http://bit.ly/d31rZk

Peter Sutton, the photographer who stumbled into the ambush:
" I didn't take a penny for the images although people assumed I got millions for them. The next day I got rid of my cameras. I'd gone a step too far, seen too much and could never risk that happening again." He hasn't taken a photo since.

If, like me, you are old enough to remember the ambush you will also recall the retaliation by loyalist paramilitaries in the month following (Sept '79)
when random innocent catholics were killed. Surely these deaths detracted from the propoganda value of the ambush?

Terrontress · 14-08-2010 10:49am

Wicklowrider wrote: »

If any of you are interested in humanising the incident you might want to read: http://bit.ly/d31rZk

Peter Sutton, the photographer who stumbled into the ambush:
" I didn't take a penny for the images although people assumed I got millions for them. The next day I got rid of my cameras. I'd gone a step too far, seen too much and could never risk that happening again." He hasn't taken a photo since.

If, like me, you are old enough to remember the ambush you will also recall the retaliation by loyalist paramilitaries in the month following (Sept '79)
when random innocent catholics were killed. Surely these deaths detracted from the propoganda value of the ambush?

Let's examine how the loyalist scum did this to those innocents. Maybe there is the same level of brilliance as in the Warrenpoint atrocity.

Or we could look at the Dublin and Monaghan bombs. The ability to operate undecover down South, plant a bomb in the middle of Dublin. No warning. 33 dead and hundreds injured. Sheer brilliance!

Not.

Mussolini, you and your ilk make me sick. I'd love for you to come to the same end as Il duce sooner rather than later you twisted excuse for a human. Your pseudonym is apt.

Wolfe Tone · 14-08-2010 11:31am

Terrontress wrote: »

Or we could look at the Dublin and Monaghan bombs. The ability to operate undecover down South, plant a bomb in the middle of Dublin. No warning. 33 dead and hundreds injured. Sheer brilliance!

You left out the collusion bit there.

Mussolini, you and your ilk make me sick. I'd love for you to come to the same end as Il duce sooner rather than later you twisted excuse for a human. Your pseudonym is apt.

Thanks, I love you too.

Terrontress · 14-08-2010 11:36am

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

You left out the collusion bit there.

Does that add to the brilliance of the military operation? It probably does. Brilliant! I think the fact that 33 innocents were murdered speaks volumes in itself, regardless of who did it. May all involved perish in hell. I hope you feel a twinge of unease that there are sub-humans who celebrate Dublin and Monaghan in the same way you celebrate Warrenpoint.

Thanks, I love you too.

I hope you are unsuccessful in everything you attempt to achieve in your life.

PatsytheNazi · 14-08-2010 11:49am

troubleshooter wrote: »

You obviously dont know the location, there is no pier or sea bank there, theres a river with rolling countryside and hills behind it.

Hence the name narrrowater.

Well to be honest I travelled on that road from Newry to Carlingford a few years ago, but my memory of it are not so intricate as you. So obviously you must either live on that road, travelled on it once or twice and have a photographic memory that their isn't a pier or sandbank on the southern side - or your just bullsh!tting. The latter I'd put a months wages on.:rolleyes:

troubleshooter wrote: »

But it has been explained to you they did not know a unit was coming or what unit, its one of 3 major routes into Newry and the main one from Bessbrook, nor did they know the unit that would pass by.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1562283/Gen-Sir-Mike-Jackson-relives-IRA-Paras-bombs.html

To Quote Gen Mike Jackson

How the hell do you know that Brendan Burns and the other IRA men didn't know did not know a unit was coming. Where you there with them ? Because some Brit says so 30 years later. Or a mind reader told you ? FFS :rolleyes:

As someone has stated, they hardly sat in a ditch for 2 or 3 days waiting for a Brit convoy to pass by. And since they would easily have known the that Parachute regiment were in Warrenpoint as the purple berets and regimental badges would be a good give away now wouldn't they, are you still going to insist they didn't know it would be the Parachute regiment travelling along the road :rolleyes:

Wolfe Tone · 14-08-2010 11:57am

Well, I am going to stop replying to your posts now because you are talking pure rubbish.

Terrontress · 14-08-2010 11:59am

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Well to be honest I travelled on that road from Newry to Carlingford a few years ago, but my memory of it are not so intricate as you. So obviously you must either live on that road, travelled on it once or twice and have a photographic memory or your just bullsh!tting. The latter I'd put a months wages on.:rolleyes:

I am familiar with the road and he is correct.

You could use google streetview if you had a brain cell or two to spare.

http://www.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=narrow+water+warrenpoint&sll=51.438087,-0.116172&sspn=0.011196,0.027874&ie=UTF8&hq=narrow+water&hnear=Warrenpoint,+Newry,+County+Down,+United+Kingdom&ll=54.111446,-6.279202&spn=0,0.111494&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=54.111531,-6.279366&panoid=KRDKr1ddhuyJliFs84imFg&cbp=12,2.7,,0,-0.33

Wolfe Tone · 14-08-2010 12:01pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Well to be honest I travelled on that road from Newry to Carlingford a few years ago, but my memory of it are not so intricate as you. So obviously you must either live on that road, travelled on it once or twice and have a photographic memory or your just bullsh!tting. The latter I'd put a months wages on.:rolleyes:

I will see if the spot is marked on Google maps, take a SS and post the picture up here.

Terrontress · 14-08-2010 12:02pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Well, I am going to stop replying to your posts now because you are talking pure rubbish.

The poor lamb. Best to leave the radical politics for a day and concentrate on your other areas of interest such as WWF wrestling and Playstations.

PatsytheNazi · 14-08-2010 12:15pm

Terrontress wrote: »

I am familiar with the road and he is correct.

You could use google streetview if you had a brain cell or two to spare.

http://www.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=narrow+water+warrenpoint&sll=51.438087,-0.116172&sspn=0.011196,0.027874&ie=UTF8&hq=narrow+water&hnear=Warrenpoint,+Newry,+County+Down,+United+Kingdom&ll=54.111446,-6.279202&spn=0,0.111494&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=54.111531,-6.279366&panoid=KRDKr1ddhuyJliFs84imFg&cbp=12,2.7,,0,-0.33

troubleshooter was talking about the southern side of the water, the Newry to Carlingford road where the IRA men with the antennae were hidden. Try and keep up with the discussion please if you had a brain cell or two to spare.

Wolfe Tone · 14-08-2010 12:23pm

This should make it clearer: The location in this instance(no HD photo

) is marked with the green peg.

Here is a roadmap of the area. The area once again is marked, in this case with the "number one" and the yellow line is the border.

So it appears that the distance from the ambush to the republics border and beyond is quite a significant one.

Terrontress · 14-08-2010 12:38pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

troubleshooter was talking about the southern side of the water, the Newry to Carlingford road where the IRA men with the antennae were hidden. Try and keep up with the discussion please if you had a brain cell or two to spare.

Your bum chum's maps would not seem to back up your post.

Wolfe Tone · 14-08-2010 12:40pm

Terrontress wrote: »

Fuck you. And fuck your type.

Your bum chum's maps would not seem to back up your post.

Arent you the friendly chap

Its not worth it Patsy.

Terrontress · 14-08-2010 12:42pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Arent you the friendly chap

Its not worth in Patsy.

As well as being a pre-pubescent with political ideas you probably heard off some "big boys" at the local football club; you're also barely literate.

Mahatma coat · 14-08-2010 12:44pm

I have a question, was the Soldier who fired across the Border censured, surely that would be against their rules, what part would these rules play in the RA deciding on Cross border attacks as the best tactic due to the fact that the brits couldnt follow them or open fire.

Wolfe Tone · 14-08-2010 12:44pm

Terrontress wrote: »

As well as being a pre-pubescent with political ideas you probably heard off some "big boys" at the local football club; you're also barely literate.

Well you are sure demonstrating high levels of maturity. I imagine a mod will be along shortly to deal with your trolling

Any more of this and I fear I may cry.

Wolfe Tone · 14-08-2010 12:47pm

Mahatma coat wrote: »

I have a question, was the Soldier who fired across the Border censured, surely that would be against their rules, what part would these rules play in the RA deciding on Cross border attacks as the best tactic due to the fact that the brits couldnt follow them or open fire.

Well the BA were not allowed or supposed to physically cross the border. Often after they carried out their attacks the IRA would withdraw to the Republic were they could not be followed.
And as for being censured, going purely on the BAs record on disciplining soldiers who erred, I highly doubt it. Thats the pessimist in me. Open to correction though.

Terrontress · 14-08-2010 12:49pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Well you are sure demonstrating high levels of maturity. I imagine a mod will be along shortly to deal with your trolling Any more of this and I fear I may cry.

Respond to me then whether you think the Dublin and Monaghan bombs were brilliant military operations?

And if having explosives on the side of a public road for several days is a sign of military brilliance?

What age are you? You're a WWF fan. Sixteen posts per day so you don't get out much. Probably 15 or so? I bet you are not even old enough to remember or understand the significance of these acts.

Wolfe Tone · 14-08-2010 12:52pm

Terrontress wrote: »

Respond to me then whether you think the Dublin and Monaghan bombs were brilliant military operations?

And if having explosives on the side of a public road for several days is a sign of military brilliance?

What age are you? You're a WWF fan. Sixteen posts per day so you don't get out much. Probably 15 or so? I bet you are not even old enough to remember or understand the significance of these acts.

Right, you are on ignore now.

Terrontress · 14-08-2010 12:54pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Right, you are on ignore now.

Because you cannot answer the questions I have posed.

You realise that you cannot defend the indefensible. And those atrocities which I have compared Warrenpoint with are every bit as indefensible.

Terrontress · 14-08-2010 12:57pm

Terrontress wrote: »

Because you cannot answer the questions I have posed.

You realise that you cannot defend the indefensible. And those atrocities which I have compared Warrenpoint with are every bit as indefensible.

But I accept that at your age you probably don't have the faculties to do so, even if you believe there to be a difference between Dublin and Monaghan, Bloody Friday and Warrenpoint.

Wolfe Tone · 14-08-2010 1:03pm

Terrontress wrote: »

Because you cannot answer the questions I have posed.

You realise that you cannot defend the indefensible. And those atrocities which I have compared Warrenpoint with are every bit as indefensible.

Ok, I will reply to this, there is no need for insults.

Firstly the question I posed was whether the attacks success was a result of BA errors or excellent planning and execution of the ambush. It seems the answer is somewhere in between. I then asked how BA policy changed as a result in an attempt to prevent a recurrence.

Secondly, an attack on innocent civilians is different to an attack on soldiers.

Finally, this thread is not about those attacks, or about justifying, or decrying the Warrenpoint ambush, it is for a mature discussion of the military side, not the politics, of the conflict between the IRA and the BA. Something you seem incapable of.

My age is irrelevant anyway, but fyi, no I am not 15.

Terrontress · 14-08-2010 1:12pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Ok, I will reply to this, there is no need for insults.

Firstly the question I posed was whether the attacks success was a result of BA errors or excellent planning and execution of the ambush. It seems the answer is somewhere in between. I then asked how BA policy changed as a result in an attempt to prevent a recurrence.

Secondly, an attack on innocent civilians is different to an attack on soldiers.

Finally, this thread is not about those attacks, or about justifying, or decrying the Warrenpoint ambush, it is for a mature discussion of the military side, not the politics, of the conflict between the IRA and the BA. Something you seem incapable of.

My age is irrelevant anyway, but fyi, no I am not 15.

Well, do you not see that the UVF had an aim in killing and maiming scores of innocents in Dublin and Monaghan. Obviously the Irish security services would have been aware of the threat of such an attack and working to prevent it.

Using military methods and intelligence those murdering bastards carried out their aims.

Do you find it acceptable to label what they did as excellent or brilliant?

Bloody Friday, 22 bombs bought in to the centre of Belfast under the nose of the British Army. 9 people killed, hundreds injured. Brilliant? Excellent?

Warrenpoint: A case of a Paramilitary force against a conventional army.

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