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Gun Control

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12467…14

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    #92
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,626 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    To that effect yeah i want to see that to, hence i also just stumbled upon a 2013 CDC study. Congress does still block attempts to study guns, but that year after sandy hook, Obama issued an executive order for them to do so. The initial report findings were non-political and some pro-gun articles went so far as to say it 'backfired' on the president - either way, it expands our knowledge of the issue

    http://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/1

    its written like a research paper (ie. legible, understandable), is hyperlinked well, and at about 110 pages I expect to try and read through the whole thing. However here is the salient finding about legal/illegal ownership though the research does not directly tie it together with a percentage of how many murders were done with illegally obtained weapons and unfortunately much of the cited information would be seemingly dated.
    Sources of Guns

    To address the criminal misuse of firearms leading to death or injury, it is important to understand how “firearms move from lawful commerce into the hands of criminals” (ATF, 2011, p. i). A survey of gun owners between 2005 and 2010 found that an average of 232,400 guns were stolen each year (Langton, 2012). Although research in the 1980s suggested that criminals acquired guns primarily through theft (Wright and Rossi, 1986), more recent prisoner surveys suggest that stolen guns account for only a small percentage of guns used by convicted criminals (Harlow, 2001; Zawitz, 1995). It is, however, unclear whether prisoners are willing to admit to gun thefts in government-conducted surveys. According to a 1997 survey of inmates, approximately 70 percent of the guns used or possessed by criminals at the time of their arrest came from family or friends,drug dealers, street purchases, or the underground market (Harlow, 2001). Another 14 percent of those surveyed bought or traded guns at retail stores, pawnshops, flea markets, or gun shows (Harlow, 2001). However, some experts question the validity of commonly used research methodologies for identifying crime-gun-trafficking prevalence, arguing that trafficking is more closely associated with gun scarcity than inappropriate acquisition from licensed gun dealers (Kleck and Wang, 2009). A better understanding of the validity of different methods to evaluate the sources of crime guns would help inform policies aimed at disrupting the flow of guns to criminals.


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    #93
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    jank wrote: »
    Where do handguns used by gangs in Dublin and Limerick come from?

    The Czech Republic.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #94
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Brian? wrote: »
    The Czech Republic.

    Do you have some sort of authority on that? I presume they are legal? :pac:


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    #95
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    jank wrote: »
    Do you have some sort of authority on that? I presume they are legal? :pac:

    I do actually. They're perfectly legal in the Czech Republic.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #96
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Brian? wrote: »
    I do actually. They're perfectly legal in the Czech Republic.

    Sigh, hence they would be illegal in Limerick....?
    Seem you are deliberately missing the point.


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    #97
    Amerika
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭Amerika


    So now we have it. The real Barack Obama emerges. A man who wants to forcibly take US Citizen’s rightfully owned firearms, and of which are protected by the US Constitution, away from us.

    “We know that other countries, in response to one mass shooting, have been able to craft laws that almost eliminate mass shootings. Friends of ours, allies of ours — Great Britain, Australia, countries like ours. So we know there are ways to prevent it.”

    The actions of Great Britain and Australia weren’t so-called “common-sense” and “modest” laws, as Obama puts it, they were extreme confiscation’s and bans.


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    #98
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,957 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    One of the biggest obstacles to any discussion of legislating new gun laws is the perceived dishonesty of those who want to increase restrictions, by the pro-gun side. If there was a proposal to overhaul the existing NFA to update it, for example removing restrictions on things like suppressors or short barreled firearms, then you would likely have more buy from the pro-gun side to the concept of legislating firearms. The message put forth by those looking to legislate is invariably anti-gun, abet couched in language proclaiming "common sense" or "reasonable".

    For as much as each tragedy is used by the gun sellers to ramp up sales for fear of restrictions, the anti-gun lobby is just as prepared to take advantage of these events to push an anti gun platform.


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    #99
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Brian? wrote: »
    The Czech Republic.

    Hardly. Perhaps for gangsters who have connections and will get them regardless, but not for mass murderers. In Czech Republic is not easy for someone outside of the country to come in and get one. A Norweigian mass murderer travelled 200 miles from his home to Belgium to buy his weapons on the black market rather than travelling 70 miles to Czech.

    This all came from 5 minutes of research on wikipedia mind you, as did most of what you see on boards, but take it as you will.


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    #100
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    jank wrote: »
    Sigh, hence they would be illegal in Limerick....?
    Seem you are deliberately missing the point.

    Don't sigh at me. Ask a straight question if you want something.

    You're using the word hence wrong, what are you actually asking here? What point are you trying to make?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #101
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    Hardly. Perhaps for gangsters who have connections and will get them regardless, but not for mass murderers. In Czech Republic is not easy for someone outside of the country to come in and get one. A Norweigian mass murderer travelled 200 miles from his home to Belgium to buy his weapons on the black market rather than travelling 70 miles to Czech.

    This all came from 5 minutes of research on wikipedia mind you, as did most of what you see on boards, but take it as you will.

    I don't have a quotable source on it, but I've heard it from sources I'd trust. It's pretty irrelevant to the discussion in fairness.

    Jank is being purposefully obtuse about making his point, I'm attempting to cut through said obtuseness and get to the point.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #102
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Amerika wrote: »
    So now we have it. The real Barack Obama emerges. A man who wants to forcibly take US Citizen’s rightfully owned firearms, and of which are protected by the US Constitution, away from us.

    “We know that other countries, in response to one mass shooting, have been able to craft laws that almost eliminate mass shootings. Friends of ours, allies of ours — Great Britain, Australia, countries like ours. So we know there are ways to prevent it.”

    The actions of Great Britain and Australia weren’t so-called “common-sense” and “modest” laws, as Obama puts it, they were extreme confiscation’s and bans.

    And the mass shootings continued regardless? Or did they stop?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #103
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Brian? wrote: »
    I don't have a quotable source on it, but I've heard it from sources I'd trust. It's pretty irrelevant to the discussion in fairness.

    Jank is being purposefully obtuse about making his point, I'm attempting to cut through said obtuseness and get to the point.

    It's not really irrelevant to the discussion though. The implication of that argument is that if America banned guns in every state they would have an easier time restricting the supply. Notwithstanding the sheer number of Americans with the skills to make guns who would be made redundant, and the massive amounts of unpolicable land which could house highly profitable clandestine weapons factories. There's also a large uncontrollable border with Mexico, which certainly isn't short of guns or those with the skills and infrastructure in place to traffic them. In fact it would only make America's gun problem worse because said factories and traffickers would have an incentive to produce guns more suitable for serious crime, such as fully automatic rifles which are currently difficult enough to get your hands on relative to semi-autos to the point where there are very few of them.


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    #104
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    It's not really irrelevant to the discussion though. The implication of that argument is that if America banned guns in every state they would have an easier time restricting the supply. Notwithstanding the sheer number of Americans with the skills to make guns who would be made redundant, and the massive amounts of unpolicable land which could house highly profitable clandestine weapons factories. There's also a large uncontrollable border with Mexico, which certainly isn't short of guns or those with the skills and infrastructure in place to traffic them. In fact it would only make America's gun problem worse because said factories and traffickers would have an incentive to produce guns more suitable for serious crime, such as fully automatic rifles which are currently difficult enough to get your hands on relative to semi-autos to the point where there are very few of them.

    It's irrelevant because no one is seriously talking about banning all guns or taking them from citizens.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #105
    Amerika
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭Amerika


    Brian? wrote: »
    And the mass shootings continued regardless? Or did they stop?
    Not sure about mass shootings, but I've read that since the banning of guns in the UK, the rate of crime (especially violent crime) has risen and firearm use in crimes in the UK has doubled in the decade since handguns were banned. Britain has the highest rate of violent crime in Europe, and five times higher than the US. And in Australia, crime has been rising since enacting their sweeping ban on private gun ownership. In the first two years after Australian gun owners were forced to surrender their personal firearms, government statistics showed a dramatic increase in criminal activity. And since their ban, firearm related murders were up 19%.


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    #106
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Brian? wrote: »
    It's irrelevant because no one is seriously talking about banning all guns or taking them from citizens.

    Clearly they are, mate. Otherwise, Australia and the UK wouldn't even be mentioned.


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    #107
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,626 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    Clearly they are, mate. Otherwise, Australia and the UK wouldn't even be mentioned.

    They're only mentioned by those who are introducing them as strawman arguments, not people who are personally invested in banning/removing guns.


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    #108
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,626 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    Does nothing to explain away the fact that people argue for banning guns but also believe that drugs shouldn't be banned because people will get them anyway.

    You're correct: those people would be idiots. However, we're talking about people who would both dislike guns and be in favor of drugs: because guns used responsibly are used to hurt other people/animals (self defense/hunting), while in responsible use, drugs are only used to harm yourself. You're arguing a completely different thing from what I was getting at.
    jank wrote: »
    Sigh, hence they would be illegal in Limerick....?
    Seem you are deliberately missing the point.

    Clearly the fact that guns are illegal in Limerick does nothing to make them disappear. You me and Brian Amerika Manic Moran pretty much most users on this thread I think all agree on that. All he said was CR was a source of black market guns in Limerick, which I wouldn't raise an eyebrow to given that virtually half of the people I worked with when I lived in Ireland were all from the Czech Republic - my only point being there are a lot of Czechs around, and a few of them could likely find ways to smuggle a weapon into the country.
    AbusesToilets (Ew?) wrote:
    One of the biggest obstacles to any discussion of legislating new gun laws is the perceived dishonesty of those who want to increase restrictions, by the pro-gun side. If there was a proposal to overhaul the existing NFA to update it, for example removing restrictions on things like suppressors or short barreled firearms,
    your post reminded me, someone went and not just designed a gun with a silencer, but designed a silencer with a gun.

    http://www.digitaljournal.com/technology/coming-to-a-gun-store-near-you-gun-with-built-in-silencer/article/444223

    Politics aside, that's neat tech.
    Walshyn93 wrote:
    Hardly. Perhaps for gangsters who have connections and will get them regardless, but not for mass murderers. In Czech Republic is not easy for someone outside of the country to come in and get one. A Norweigian mass murderer travelled 200 miles from his home to Belgium to buy his weapons on the black market rather than travelling 70 miles to Czech.

    This all came from 5 minutes of research on wikipedia mind you, as did most of what you see on boards, but take it as you will.
    You just defeated your own argument.


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    #109
    MadYaker
    Registered Users Posts: 12,140 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    The UK and Australia didn't introduce blanket bans on guns. Considering the hold the NRA and other pro gun lobbyists have over congress it's unlikely any meaningful changes to any laws around gun owner ship will be brought in any time soon.

    It seems to me that almost all of these events are carried out by disenfranchised young males with mental issues and nobody to turn to. The mass killings are just a symptom of a deeper issue and while everybody, even Obama, all get caught up talking about gun control they miss the point. Depression and mental illness in men is a huge issue in loads of developed nations in Ireland we have a disproportionately high suicide rate among men, in America they have these mass killings. Government needs to target these people with services to give them the help they need and to break the stigma around mental health. The gun debate is just a distraction really.


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    #110
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Overheal wrote: »
    You're correct: those people would be idiots. However, we're talking about people who would both dislike guns and be in favor of drugs: because guns used responsibly are used to hurt other people/animals (self defense/hunting), while in responsible use, drugs are only used to harm yourself. You're arguing a completely different thing from what I was getting at.



    You just defeated your own argument.

    Firstly. You seem to value the life of a perpetrator in a self-defence case as much as the victim. Billions of animals are killed in slaughterhouses each year. Hunted animals have a far more humane death and are far fewer in number.

    Secondly, I don't see how I've defeated my own argument. Perhaps you saying that is a desperate attempt to shut down my argument, but simply stating the fact that criminals have connections and can get around the barriers in Czech Republic doesn't change the fact that they will find a way to get around any barriers in any country, as there are illegal guns in every single country on earth.


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    #111
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,626 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    You seem to value the life of a perpetrator in a self-defence case as much as the victim.
    Clearly you cannot extrapolate that theory about my viewpoint from anything I said, as it's false.


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    #112
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Overheal wrote: »
    Clearly the fact that guns are illegal in Limerick does nothing to make them disappear. You me and Brian Amerika Manic Moran pretty much most users on this thread I think all agree on that. All he said was CR was a source of black market guns in Limerick, which I wouldn't raise an eyebrow to given that virtually half of the people I worked with when I lived in Ireland were all from the Czech Republic - my only point being there are a lot of Czechs around, and a few of them could likely find ways to smuggle a weapon into the country.

    Fair point, however I was responding to his first post here.
    The implication of this post was that the issue with illegal handguns in places like New York and Chicago is the result of legal gun ownershiper elsewhere.

    The fundamental problem with the gun control narrative is that it does virtually nothing to stop the vast majority of gun crime where the arms have been acquired illegally. Ireland has one of the most stringent gun laws in the world due to its history of paramilitary's. Yet, Dublin is on top of the EU list in regards gun related murders.

    Therefore the question itself was fallacy.


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    #113
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,988 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    jank wrote: »
    The fundamental problem with the gun control narrative is that it does virtually nothing to stop the vast majority of gun crime where the arms have been acquired illegally. Ireland has one of the most stringent gun laws in the world due to its history of paramilitary's. Yet, Dublin is on top of the EU list in regards gun related murders.

    Therefore the question itself was fallacy.

    Remind me again when did we have the last school shoot out in Dublin? More gun control plus the collection of guns already in circulation means that average Joe lunatic is less likely to amass a large collection of guns no matter what set of statistics you want to bring up.


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    #114
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    CNN had an article on the NRA's funding today. Some surprising numbers (I wish I had $50k to donate), but some unsurprising information as well (With millions of members, membership dues alone provides millions of dollars)

    http://money.cnn.com/news/cnnmoney-investigates/nra-funding-donors/


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    #115
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,220 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    CNN had an article on the NRA's funding today. Some surprising numbers (I wish I had $50k to donate), but some unsurprising information as well (With millions of members, membership dues alone provides millions of dollars)

    http://money.cnn.com/news/cnnmoney-investigates/nra-funding-donors/


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    #116
    Amerika
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭Amerika


    I’ve been reading reports recently that appears the viewpoint about America and its 2nd amendment isn’t all that crazy anymore, in some parts of Europe. That in Austria, because of the influx of Islamic immigrants, and people wanting to be able to defend themselves, that long guns have been flying off the shelves, and that Austrians who haven’t already purchased a gun may not have a chance to get one for some time because they’re all sold out. And the trend to acquire guns for self-defense is likely to begin to happen in other countries that have taken in the immigrants... like Germany and Sweden. Any substance to this?


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    #117
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,626 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Some surprising numbers (I wish I had $50k to donate),

    "It is a good percentage of my income [5% to 10%], but I want to do everything I can easily do to preserve my freedoms," said the donor, who requested to remain anonymous. "I hope the money will be used to help conservative or libertarian minded candidates win elections."


    Ah, more money in politics...


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    #118
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    Brian? wrote: »
    Here's a few questions: where do the guns on the black market come from? Where do the guns in cities like Chicago and New York come from?



    The flood of guns in Chicago tends to come from across the state line in Indiana where the laws on guns are lax.


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    #119
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,626 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The same places and via the same methods drugs run around the country. I can drive in and out of New York without ever being stopped, frisked, or searched. My jeep could in theory be full of assault rifles and drive right down Broadway St.


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    #120
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭eire4


    Brian? wrote: »
    No, we don't. You didn't answer the questions asked because the answers were too uncomfortable.

    The vast majority of guns held illegally were bought legally and either sold privately or stolen.

    Registering all firearms would stem this flow. It won't reduce the number of guns held illegally right now, but it will stop the number increasing. What's the objection to a federally administered firearms register?



    Another option would be to require gun owners to carry insurance on their guns.


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    #121
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    America has a mental health problem, not a gun problem.

    Guns are just as available in many countries around the world , yet you don't see the likes of what goes on there.

    The right to own a gun is protected by the second amendment and that should be preserved. I would even go as far as to say gun control is too restrictive. If high powered centre fire pistols and concealed carry were legal in Ireland, I would definitely be signing up to that.


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