The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

gent9662 · 10-05-2012 9:37am

The Brigadier wrote: »

Yes, and for some reason the blame is only really being pointed at the Church.

Reason being that the church is a sanctuary for child rapists such as Smith.

You seem to think that other Catholics that disagree with you have no right to question or put forward an opinion.You are typical of all that is wrong with the church. Blind faith and unquestionable loyalty.

The sooner you wake up and smell the corruption the better.

Nabber · 11-05-2012 5:19pm

Reading this thread, I don't understand the attack on the Church as whole. Or what point is being made? Are people looking for the RCC to be dis -banded.

I'm all for accountability and justice, just the way it is being pursued by some people is all wrong. It should be about accountability and justice and not a chance for people to attack someone’s beliefs. It can be very hard on some people when their beliefs are being attacked because of what a handful of people have done (handful being spread out through different ranks/standings)
But they way people have used these sick events to further their own agenda or do what cause this problem if the first place (burying your head in the sand) is just all wrong.

If all the people involved in this, inside and outside of the Church went to jail, judging from some of the comments in here people still wouldn't be happy.

My only point in all this would be why attack someone values/beliefs because someone else who claims these values does something bad?
And why protect someone who does something bad because they claim to have the same values/beliefs?

The above happens in Military, politics, schoolyards ect...
So to pursue these terrible deeds as anti Catholicism agenda?

Why not pursue it as Bad men protecting vile men?

Brer Fox · 11-05-2012 7:04pm

dclane wrote: »

Reason being that the church is a sanctuary for child rapists such as Smith.

You seem to think that other Catholics that disagree with you have no right to question or put forward an opinion.You are typical of all that is wrong with the church. Blind faith and unquestionable loyalty.

The sooner you wake up and smell the corruption the better.

The HSE failed children and continues to do so. Yet there are no calls for investigations of HSE. 400 kids died in HSE care recently. Why no public outcry about that? Why all the focus on RCC? What about teachers and parents and sports coaches and dentists and doctors, all of whom do most of the abusing that is done. The RCC is the safest place for kids in Ireland today yet there's no mention of that. Why not?

fatmammycat · 11-05-2012 7:09pm

I'm pretty sure it is because the HSC is not advertising itself as some kind of moral guardian, acting on the behest of a supreme deity, for the betterment of mankind.

HamletOrHecuba · 11-05-2012 7:13pm

Brer Fox wrote: »

The HSE failed children and continues to do so. Yet there are no calls for investigations of HSE. 400 kids died in HSE care recently. Why no public outcry about that? Why all the focus on RCC? What about teachers and parents and sports coaches and dentists and doctors, all of whom do most of the abusing that is done. The RCC is the safest place for kids in Ireland today yet there's no mention of that. Why not?

It could be taken as a recognition that due to the ontological dignity confirmed on Priests by their ordination and the fact that they are supposed to be representing God sexual abuse by them, let alone homosexual sexual abuse of children or teenagers is greatly more serious and evil than "ordinary" sexual abuse (let me make clear that I favour the death penalty for the sexual abuse of children and the rape of both children and adults so Im not saying that if its done by an ordinary person its not evil and utterly vile).

HamletOrHecuba · 11-05-2012 7:14pm

fatmammycat wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it is because the HSC is not advertising itself as some kind of moral guardian, acting on the behest of a supreme deity, for the betterment of mankind.

Oh but the modern European state most certainly does act as some kind of moral guardian- hence the "hate laws", etc.

Corkfeen · 11-05-2012 7:28pm

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Oh but the modern European state most certainly does act as some kind of moral guardian- hence the "hate laws", etc.

Erm, what exactly is wrong with legislating against hate crimes? It's not the act of being moral guardian and has far more to do with being a civilised society.

HamletOrHecuba · 11-05-2012 7:41pm

Corkfeen wrote: »

Erm, what exactly is wrong with legislating against hate crimes? It's not the act of being moral guardian and has far more to do with being a civilised society.

"What is wrong with legislating against heresy? Its not the act of a moral guardian and has far more to do with a being civilized society."

Come on! Whether "Hate crimes" are just or wise is one thing, but you cannot deny that it is the state acting as moral guardian and declaring certain opinions about certain groups basically as secular heresy.

StudentDad · 13-05-2012 8:02pm

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

"What is wrong with legislating against heresy? Its not the act of a moral guardian and has far more to do with a being civilized society."

Come on! Whether "Hate crimes" are just or wise is one thing, but you cannot deny that it is the state acting as moral guardian and declaring certain opinions about certain groups basically as secular heresy.

Secular Heresy? Oh that's good. Hate Crimes are bad for society as a whole. It has nothing to do with morality or religion. The simple fact is that things that are deemed detrimental to society are legislated for by our elected representatives. If you want to put a 'moralistic' tag on it that's your choice.

Take murder as an example. It is morally wrong. However, whether it is or not isn't the main problem. Murder is detrimental to society as a whole. The state has a duty to protect it's citizens from attack. Murder is an attack on society and the state itself. Morality does not come into it.

SD

F12 · 13-05-2012 8:24pm

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

"What is wrong with legislating against heresy? Its not the act of a moral guardian and has far more to do with a being civilized society."

Come on! Whether "Hate crimes" are just or wise is one thing, but you cannot deny that it is the state acting as moral guardian and declaring certain opinions about certain groups basically as secular heresy.

If any group, minority or not, fails to live up to their own moral standards, especially when those standards breach all norms for basic human decency and conduct, and thereby causing harm to others, then the State should justifiably stand in and prevent such abuse from happening. That is the mandate of governance in any democratic state, to protect the citizens - all citizens.

If you choose to use 'heresy' as applying to general 'secular' social acceptances, then you also have to ask how many of the clerical abusers were charged with going against their own church's moral code.

Heresy has a number of contextual meanings, so you need to make quite clear as to in which sense you are applying it:

1. opinion or doctrine at variance with the orthodox or accepted doctrine, especially of a church or religious system.

2. the maintaining of such an opinion or doctrine.

3.Roman Catholic Church . the willful and persistent rejection of any article of faith by a baptized member of the church.

4. any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs, customs, etc.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heresy

F12 · 13-05-2012 8:48pm

Brer Fox wrote: »

The HSE failed children and continues to do so. Yet there are no calls for investigations of HSE. 400 kids died in HSE care recently. Why no public outcry about that? Why all the focus on RCC? What about teachers and parents and sports coaches and dentists and doctors, all of whom do most of the abusing that is done. The RCC is the safest place for kids in Ireland today yet there's no mention of that. Why not?

Err...because the HSE is not the agency doing the abusing? The chidren suffered abuse before they went into HSE care, as they were abused or neglected by their parents and peers. It's the parents, the sports coaches, the doctors, the priests, all sorts of sexual deviants who occupy positions of trust over minors, who are doing the abusing. If you are going to use occupational labels to support your argument, then you surely have to recognise that approximately 88% of Irish people identified themselves as "Catholic" in the 2011 census, so it must logically follow that at least 88% of children abused in Ireland are abused by Catholics.
If you claim "The RCC is the safest place for kids in Ireland today", can you clarify as to if you mean safe from the priesthood, or safe from the non-clerical Catholics? What makes them more safe today if, as you say, 400 children died because of abuse?

Brer Fox · 14-05-2012 6:36pm

Is anyone else here sick of this whole abuse saga?

I'm tired of it. I'm sick of the news, the newspapers, the constant stream of crap. This ongoing, long-running thread (what is it, like 20,000 posts and counting?) is all part of it. Why, pray tell, is there a dedicated, permanent thread about it?

I'm sick of the whole blame culture. I'm tired of the self-righteous beating up on prelates of the Church. Yes, bad things happen, and people suffered greatly, but there has to come a point where people say ENOUGH. Enough blaming and enough self-righteous finger-pointing. Who here hasn't cocked up in some important aspect of life? Aren't we all guilty of making decisions which seemed like a good idea at the time, or even which didn't seem like a good idea at the time but we did it anyway?

The Catholic Church is now, without doubt, the safest organisation for children on the entire island of Ireland.

We have to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough. I think we as Catholics need to do this and stop dwelling on the bad things that happened in the past. We need to press onwards to a brighter future. Otherwise we shall become trapped hopelessly in the past. There can be no healing and no peace if we are engaged in the blame game or seeking revenge. Healing will only come when we let go of our hurt and give it to the LORD Who alone can heal us and grant us peace. We need to trust in the words of the LORD Who said, ''Behold, I make all things new.'' Do we really believe Him?

PDN · 14-05-2012 7:38pm

Brer Fox wrote: »

I'm tired of it. I'm sick of the news, the newspapers, the constant stream of crap. This ongoing, long-running thread (what is it, like 20,000 posts and counting?) is all part of it. Why, pray tell, is there a dedicated, permanent thread about it?

To protect the Catholic posters on this Forum. Numerous threads were being hijacked by thise who wanted to rant about child abuse. Therefore the mods decided to confine it to just one thread.

Sonics2k · 14-05-2012 8:11pm

Brer Fox wrote: »

Is anyone else here sick of this whole abuse saga?

I'm tired of it. I'm sick of the news, the newspapers, the constant stream of crap. This ongoing, long-running thread (what is it, like 20,000 posts and counting?) is all part of it. Why, pray tell, is there a dedicated, permanent thread about it?

I'm sick of the whole blame culture. I'm tired of the self-righteous beating up on prelates of the Church. Yes, bad things happen, and people suffered greatly, but there has to come a point where people say ENOUGH. Enough blaming and enough self-righteous finger-pointing. Who here hasn't cocked up in some important aspect of life? Aren't we all guilty of making decisions which seemed like a good idea at the time, or even which didn't seem like a good idea at the time but we did it anyway?

The Catholic Church is now, without doubt, the safest organisation for children on the entire island of Ireland.

We have to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough. I think we as Catholics need to do this and stop dwelling on the bad things that happened in the past. We need to press onwards to a brighter future. Otherwise we shall become trapped hopelessly in the past. There can be no healing and no peace if we are engaged in the blame game or seeking revenge. Healing will only come when we let go of our hurt and give it to the LORD Who alone can heal us and grant us peace. We need to trust in the words of the LORD Who said, ''Behold, I make all things new.'' Do we really believe Him?

To be fair though, people would probably have moved on and forgiven these crimes if they weren't still be discovered!

The fact of the matter is that loads of these guys got away with committing serious crimes, and are still free. People are rightfully pissed off with that.

If the Pope or leaders of the Vatican one day announced that each and everyone of these child abusers was to be put in jail, all benefits removed, just like any other child abuser, the scandal would die down in days.

But no, they continue to hide the crimes of the past.

F12 · 14-05-2012 8:59pm

Brer Fox wrote: »

Is anyone else here sick of this whole abuse saga?

I'm tired of it. I'm sick of the news, the newspapers, the constant stream of crap. This ongoing, long-running thread (what is it, like 20,000 posts and counting?) is all part of it. Why, pray tell, is there a dedicated, permanent thread about it?

I'm sick of the whole blame culture. I'm tired of the self-righteous beating up on prelates of the Church. Yes, bad things happen, and people suffered greatly, but there has to come a point where people say ENOUGH. Enough blaming and enough self-righteous finger-pointing. Who here hasn't cocked up in some important aspect of life? Aren't we all guilty of making decisions which seemed like a good idea at the time, or even which didn't seem like a good idea at the time but we did it anyway?

The Catholic Church is now, without doubt, the safest organisation for children on the entire island of Ireland.

We have to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough. I think we as Catholics need to do this and stop dwelling on the bad things that happened in the past. We need to press onwards to a brighter future. Otherwise we shall become trapped hopelessly in the past. There can be no healing and no peace if we are engaged in the blame game or seeking revenge. Healing will only come when we let go of our hurt and give it to the LORD Who alone can heal us and grant us peace. We need to trust in the words of the LORD Who said, ''Behold, I make all things new.'' Do we really believe Him?

You can't make as brighter future if you keep the dark clouds of evil that generated such perversion moving along with you. As Christian teaching says, "As you sow, so shall you reap", so if the current harvest of what was sown in the past keeps on sprouting up, then you can't expect people whose eyes have been forced open to go back to believing that it can be wished away. Some people do want change, actual change, and not only the mouthing of it. This goes for any system of belief or persuasion, not simply the RCC, but as the RCC has undoubtedly grieviously abused the power granted to it by the citizens and government of the State, then it only has itself to look to.

What evidence do you have for the claim that the Catholic Church is the safest organisation for children in Ireland? It may well be, but how do you know that, in the light of not only the recent disclosures on the Cardinal Brady story of non-reporting of child rape to the legal authorities, but the still slithering sematic avoidances that show that little or nothing has really changed?
To even attempt to equate child rape with poor choices and name them 'mistakes' is an offence to any right thinking being. Rape is not a 'mistake', as you can't unintentionally rape someone. If God can give such vermin peace, then people need to look to themselves.

It's not about seeking revenge but simply seeking justice, and with such a mindset you can never have justice. You can have all the laws you like, canon law, State law, any law, but when you only have law without justice, then all you get is oppression. Sooner or later people will rebel, as justice is as essential as air to true humans, as it determines the essential quality of their lives. Without it, we are less than nothing, but if people choose to live in such a state, they deserve what they don't have, as they have judged themselves as deserving no better.

Brer Fox · 14-05-2012 9:35pm

F12 wrote: »

...but the still slithering sematic avoidances that show that little or nothing has really changed?
To even attempt to equate child rape with poor choices and name them 'mistakes' is an offence to any right thinking being. Rape is not a 'mistake', as you can't unintentionally rape someone.

I don't think it is fair nor accurate to say nothing has changed. In the past, the thing was hidden; today, the police are informed. That is a big change, no?

I didn't refer to rape as a mistake. I was suggesting that dealing with abuse by hiding it or listening to psychiatrists rather than Biblical common sense was a mistake.

marienbad · 14-05-2012 9:44pm

Brer Fox wrote: »

I don't think it is fair nor accurate to say nothing has changed. In the past, the thing was hidden; today, the police are informed. That is a big change, no?

I didn't refer to rape as a mistake. I was suggesting that dealing with abuse by hiding it or listening to psychiatrists rather than Biblical common sense was a mistake.

Until all the men that were in charge when all of this happened have stepped aside then people will query has anything really changed.

In no other organisation could such men remain . If it was'nt so tragic it would be laughable , they seem to inhabit a paralled universe.

F12 · 14-05-2012 9:55pm

Brer Fox wrote: »

I don't think it is fair nor accurate to say nothing has changed. In the past, the thing was hidden; today, the police are informed. That is a big change, no?

I didn't refer to rape as a mistake. I was suggesting that dealing with abuse by hiding it or listening to psychiatrists rather than Biblical common sense was a mistake.

Well, I could possibly agree with you that maybe to some degree the attitude of at least some of the people in the street has changed as they are now at least aware that it went on and it might still happen, so maybe some degree of change might prove real if they don't go back to thinking it has gone away. People have a habit of going back to old patterns of behaviours, so it's only worth something if they actually do realise the importance of not ignoring things that they should be aware of and do something about. This involves awareness at an individual level, and not some sort of 'it's someone else's business' attitude.

I don't know if there has been any actual case where the Church authorities reported any of their clergy to the Gardai, but if they have I would think that it's not widely known of. Do you know of any such cases?

I'm not sure what 'hiding it or listening to psychiatrists' means. Maybe you could clarify? I also don't understand what you mean by using 'Biblical common sense' to report child abuse, but you might also tell me what that means. Thanks.

Brer Fox · 14-05-2012 10:03pm

marienbad wrote: »

Until all the men that were in charge when all of this happened have stepped aside then people will query has anything really changed.

In no other organisation could such men remain . If it was'nt so tragic it would be laughable , they seem to inhabit a paralled universe.

Whether you like it or not, Cardinal Brady is a Prince of the Church, not through his own merit but the gift of God for leadership of the Church. You may not like that, but that is how it is. The then Fr Brady did his duty under the system as it was then. I accept that he was acting in good faith, even if, with hindsight, we can see that what was done was wholly inadequate. The bishop has much greater responsibility for what happened, and he is dead. It wasn't just Cardinal Brady who knew about the abuse. Others knew, and they were not bound to silence as the children were, yet nobody is saying they failed in any way to do something, are they?

Cardinal Brady has indicated that he is preparing to retire from his ministry in the Church, but he is not going to go out 'in disgrace' to satisfy the mob. St. Peter denied the LORD yet he was not stripped of his ministry; why should Cardinal Brady be any different? He didn't sexually abuse anyone. It was up to his bishop and the superior to act on the information they had to deal with Smyth. It was a pity that the police were not informed at the time (if indeed they weren't). But are we confident that they would have acted effectively?

F12 wrote: »

Well, I could possibly agree with you that maybe to some degree the attitude of at least some of the people in the street has changed as they are now at least aware that it went on and it might still happen, so maybe some degree of change might prove real if they don't go back to thinking it has gone away. People have a habit of going back to old patterns of behaviours, so it's only worth something if they actually do realise the importance of not ignoring things that they should be aware of and do something about. This involves awareness at an individual level, and not some sort of 'it's someone else's business' attitude.

I don't know if there has been any actual case where the Church authorities reported any of their clergy to the Gardai, but if they have I would think that it's not widely known of. Do you know of any such cases?

I'm not sure what 'hiding it or listening to psychiatrists' means. Maybe you could clarify? I also don't understand what you mean by using 'Biblical common sense' to report child abuse, but you might also tell me what that means. Thanks.

I don't know.

Hiding it means hiding it. Listening to shrinks means taking the word of 'experts' that a man was cured and could go back to ministry. Biblical common sense just means dealing with it in the proper way, which is to expel the wrongdoer and hand him over to the civil authorities. That's what ought to have been done.

Doc Farrell · 14-05-2012 10:23pm

Brer Fox wrote: »

Is anyone else here sick of this whole abuse saga?

I'm tired of it. I'm sick of the news, the newspapers, the constant stream of crap. This ongoing, long-running thread (what is it, like 20,000 posts and counting?) is all part of it. Why, pray tell, is there a dedicated, permanent thread about it?

I'm sick of the whole blame culture. I'm tired of the self-righteous beating up on prelates of the Church.
There can be no healing and no peace if we are engaged in the blame game or seeking revenge. Healing will only come when we let go of our hurt and give it to the LORD Who alone can heal us and grant us peace. We need to trust in the words of the LORD Who said, ''Behold, I make all things new.'' Do we really believe Him?

This week on the news was a story of a priest who abused deaf boys. After one crime he drove to the fathers house to accuse the boy of truancy so that the father wouldn't give credence to the boys story that the priest had attacked hm. That case was this week. Should that case not be reported?
It seems to me that you know no children who were raped by adults and no adults who were ignored by the church when they reported these attacks.
I really don't think you know what a sexual attack by an adult does to a child, let alone an attack by a priest in a powerful organisation like the Irish church. I'll leave it at that. Adults who call themselves Christians and want to silence victims or critics of criminals need to ask themselves if they even know what the Gospels are all about.
You don't like that scale of the criticisms? Does that not indicate the scale of the sickness inside the church? The self pity that some Catholics feel is a lot less painful than the shame a child carries for years after sexual abuse.
If you had typed your opinion ten years ago, or even five, I might understand such a view, but after all that is still coming out, week after week? I simply cannt fathom such a thing.

F12 · 14-05-2012 10:25pm

Brer Fox wrote: »

I don't know.

Hiding it means hiding it. Listening to shrinks means taking the word of 'experts' that a man was cured and could go back to ministry. Biblical common sense just means dealing with it in the proper way, which is to expel the wrongdoer and hand him over to the civil authorities. That's what ought to have been done.

I may be wrong, but were the 'experts' not paid for and engaged by the same church whose priests carried out the abuse?
As far as I was aware, the psychs were not paid for or engaged by the State, but you or someone else might perhaps show me otherwise.

Most of the offenders were simply sent away 'on retreat' to pray about their perversion in the foolish idea that some outside force could make them better. Their parishoners were certainly not made aware of the realities that the hierarchy knew well of.

You don't need to be a shrink or a theologian to work out that anyone who would even consider raping a child is a pervert and is beyond all definition as being suited to mix with decent people, never mind releasing them back into areas where yet even more children could be harmed.
There is no such thing as 'biblical common sense' as common sense is based on reality and sensible ideas, and it's universal in its application, regardless of any belief system, and it's not make-believe ideas about 'forgiveness' of what is clearly an unforgivable offence of the most depraved order of baseness and pure evil.

We all know what should have been done, as it's obvious, and I'm neither a shrink or a priest, but we seem to have fallen under a spell of those in positions of authority, even imagined authority, and have lost the ability to make rational decisions.

It really never ceases to amaze me that people can apply total contradiction to support an idea that can be somehow conjured up look like it might almost sound plausible. Do people not think about what they are actually saying to themselves? Do they really and truly not recognise the difference between reality and fantasy?

marienbad · 15-05-2012 12:09pm

Brer Fox wrote: »

Whether you like it or not, Cardinal Brady is a Prince of the Church, not through his own merit but the gift of God for leadership of the Church. You may not like that, but that is how it is. The then Fr Brady did his duty under the system as it was then. I accept that he was acting in good faith, even if, with hindsight, we can see that what was done was wholly inadequate. The bishop has much greater responsibility for what happened, and he is dead. It wasn't just Cardinal Brady who knew about the abuse. Others knew, and they were not bound to silence as the children were, yet nobody is saying they failed in any way to do something, are they?

Cardinal Brady has indicated that he is preparing to retire from his ministry in the Church, but he is not going to go out 'in disgrace' to satisfy the mob. St. Peter denied the LORD yet he was not stripped of his ministry; why should Cardinal Brady be any different? He didn't sexually abuse anyone. It was up to his bishop and the superior to act on the information they had to deal with Smyth. It was a pity that the police were not informed at the time (if indeed they weren't). But are we confident that they would have acted effectively?

I don't know.

Hiding it means hiding it. Listening to shrinks means taking the word of 'experts' that a man was cured and could go back to ministry. Biblical common sense just means dealing with it in the proper way, which is to expel the wrongdoer and hand him over to the civil authorities. That's what ought to have been done.

You see- this is the parallelled universe I am talking about. Most people don't care how Brady was appointed - it has no relevance now. All they see is he failed in his duty and covered it up and lied about it and should just go. The defence that he did his duty under the system as it was then is laughable , it was child abuse in 1975 and he did nothing about it. The same church was locking up girls for just being too lively. No problem talking to the parents there was there ?

Lets compare and contrast as they used to say--

Priests raped multiple numbers boys and girls over a long period -- Result nothing happened.

Young boy and girl make out at the local hop - result --a smirk and clip around the ear for him and years in a Magdalene and a destroyed reputation for her.

And if we knew of all the names of the other bishops and priests that had even a hint of awarenesss of what went on and did nothing , we would be calling for them to go also.

Brer Fox · 15-05-2012 7:23pm

marienbad wrote: »

You see- this is the parallelled universe I am talking about. Most people don't care how Brady was appointed - it has no relevance now. All they see is he failed in his duty and covered it up and lied about it and should just go. The defence that he did his duty under the system as it was then is laughable , it was child abuse in 1975 and he did nothing about it. The same church was locking up girls for just being too lively. No problem talking to the parents there was there ?

I'm not sure it can be said that Card. Brady lied. Do you have proof he lied about anything?

The Irish state is a big mess. They were in bed with the Church over what happened. The Catholic Church in Ireland, for all the good that was done, was also very corrupt in a way that only the Irish could master. That's just my opinion. Look now at the sadness of Rome having to intervene in our pathetic affairs. Just as the bishops failed to catechise the faithful and allowed dissenter priests to run amok, they also failed to protect them from bad priests.

It is time for an authentic Catholic faithful to manifest themselves in Ireland. And for that, we need good leaders.

marienbad · 15-05-2012 11:08pm

Brer Fox wrote: »

I'm not sure it can be said that Card. Brady lied. Do you have proof he lied about anything?

The Irish state is a big mess. They were in bed with the Church over what happened. The Catholic Church in Ireland, for all the good that was done, was also very corrupt in a way that only the Irish could master. That's just my opinion. Look now at the sadness of Rome having to intervene in our pathetic affairs. Just as the bishops failed to catechise the faithful and allowed dissenter priests to run amok, they also failed to protect them from bad priests.

It is time for an authentic Catholic faithful to manifest themselves in Ireland. And for that, we need good leaders.

What do you mean do I have proof ?? At the very least he lied by omission , he lied about the senority of his role in questioning that young boy- note taker my arse . He went back of his promise to resign .What more do you need. This is why people are disillusioned and not because of some recalcitrant priests.

Interesting though how quickly and publicly the Vaticcan acted on that one compared to the decades of child abuse is'nt it.

Brer Fox · 15-05-2012 11:18pm

marienbad wrote: »

What do you mean do I have proof ?? At the very least he lied by omission , he lied about the senority of his role in questioning that young boy- note taker my arse . He went back of his promise to resign .What more do you need. This is why people are disillusioned and not because of some recalcitrant priests.

Interesting though how quickly and publicly the Vaticcan acted on that one compared to the decades of child abuse is'nt it.

The doctrinal dissent went on for decades too. I would wonder if the laxity on dissenting priests and the laxity on deviant priests are connected. The Irish bishops failed on both around the same time, and only know, at the behest of Rome, is action being taken. The cover-up was not orchestrated from Rome; no, it was a local affair.

marienbad · 15-05-2012 11:26pm

Brer Fox wrote: »

The doctrinal dissent went on for decades too. I would wonder if the laxity on dissenting priests and the laxity on deviant priests are connected. The Irish bishops failed on both around the same time, and only know, at the behest of Rome, is action being taken. The cover-up was not orchestrated from Rome; no, it was a local affair.

How do you know where the cover up was orchestrated from ? Proof please

Brer Fox · 16-05-2012 7:48pm

marienbad wrote: »

How do you know where the cover up was orchestrated from ? Proof please

Rome only took a lead role in the abuse thing when Card. Ratzinger took over the abuse files in 2001 I think. Up to that point, the issue had been dealt with in the dioceses. I don't buy the popular narrative that says a cover-up was orchestrated from Rome. Many people do; I don't.

MagicSean · 16-05-2012 7:58pm

Brer Fox wrote: »

Is anyone else here sick of this whole abuse saga?

I'm tired of it. I'm sick of the news, the newspapers, the constant stream of crap. This ongoing, long-running thread (what is it, like 20,000 posts and counting?) is all part of it. Why, pray tell, is there a dedicated, permanent thread about it?

I'm sick of the whole blame culture. I'm tired of the self-righteous beating up on prelates of the Church. Yes, bad things happen, and people suffered greatly, but there has to come a point where people say ENOUGH. Enough blaming and enough self-righteous finger-pointing. Who here hasn't cocked up in some important aspect of life? Aren't we all guilty of making decisions which seemed like a good idea at the time, or even which didn't seem like a good idea at the time but we did it anyway?

The Catholic Church is now, without doubt, the safest organisation for children on the entire island of Ireland.

We have to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough. I think we as Catholics need to do this and stop dwelling on the bad things that happened in the past. We need to press onwards to a brighter future. Otherwise we shall become trapped hopelessly in the past. There can be no healing and no peace if we are engaged in the blame game or seeking revenge. Healing will only come when we let go of our hurt and give it to the LORD Who alone can heal us and grant us peace. We need to trust in the words of the LORD Who said, ''Behold, I make all things new.'' Do we really believe Him?

I'm sure most people are sick of the saga. But the victims are still entitled to justice. So i don't think the matter should rest until those responsable for inflicting, prolonging and hiding the atrocities are brought to justice.

Brer Fox · 17-05-2012 7:23pm

marienbad wrote: »

How do you know where the cover up was orchestrated from ? Proof please

I have followed the matter closely over many years. I know that the Irish bishops had their own incompetence. They didn't need any help from Rome.

There's a good book you should read - Pope Benedict XVI and the Sexual Abuse Crisis: Working for Reform and Renewal, published by Our Sunday Visitor.

Brer Fox · 17-05-2012 8:43pm

Keylem wrote: »

Even if justice was served and it should, it would never be enough!

There's a good article on the Cardinal issue in the Irish Catholic -

http://www.irishcatholic.ie/content/casting-stones-cardinal-kieron-wood

There's a lot of food for thought there for all of us.

The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

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