RTE Radio 1 on 252!

former legend · 24-09-2014 5:18pm

Cork_chick_94 wrote: »

I think it might be about sunday morning mass which is on LW and digital only. I would imagine that most radio mass listeners are elderly and in my experience elderly people are more likely to have a portable radio with lw. Maybe they should carry the mass on RTE Lyric FM ?

Ah I see.

Sort of raises the bigger question as to whether the state broadcaster should be using state funds to broadcast religious services of a single faith but that's a whole other can of worms.

My experience is that most elderly people have a TV too...

AwaitYourReply · 24-09-2014 5:23pm

Great to see others here on Boards.ie considering some of the points raised. Those of us who use our computers online and mobile apps and satellite tv often take this for granted but to my parents generation it can be such a big deal even though I live in Cork City which has relatively good coverage but elderly honest decent people in rural Ireland should not be treated badly. Everyone wants all the services but yeah they have to make cuts where possible but maybe if RTÉ Management can also think outside the box while making the necessary savings it could be a win, win for all including RTÉ for not alienating a small but important community of our senior citizens. Sunday morning religious services such as Mass, Sunday Miscellany and so on have been an integral part of Sunday mornings for many many years and let's not make it feel like an obstacle course or challenge for our senior citizens to tune in after LW 252kHz shuts down shortly.

cml387 · 24-09-2014 6:17pm

BBC R4 on 198kHz has a part to play in the British nuclear deterrent
It is one of the considerations an RN captain would use in the use of his weapons if the 198kHz signal was gone.

As a backup,RTE's signal would have been helpful. Maybe RTE should have consulted the MOD before closing the service.

AwaitYourReply · 24-09-2014 6:17pm

Ah yes of course most elderly have a TV too but do people really need to switch the TV on if they just want to listen to radio in another room or while on the move? What about our green carbon footprint?

Most TV sets are not as portable in the same way as a radio set is in terms of weight and connectivity to an aerial source.

Religious services have become a lot more ecumenical in the way they have been aired in recent years. They seem to be following the multi-cultural themes you would sometimes see on EyeWitness and/or those other religious ceremonies you will also find broadcast on RTÉ One TV on Sundays and around major religious festival periods such as Easter & Christmas. They often include other religious denominations from Roman Catholic to Church of Ireland/Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, Jewish and so on. If you do have an all Roman Catholic ceremony, you will often find that another religious programme will follow with a different religious faith(s) covered but I'm sure they cannot realistically cater for every single denomination in a separate way given all the cultures now in the country. I mean if we went to a Muslim country, I'm sure we would not find it the other way round either but it is right to find some reasonable balance in a civilised democratic country. I was amazed to see a Jewish Rabbi alongside other senior Church Leaders in Ireland one year - it was very positive to see them all praying together alongside each other at the same Christmas Eve ceremony. Radio programmes like Sunday Miscellany on RTÉ Radio One LW often comes across quite neutral in terms of the spiritual guidance and it is very chilled and relaxing to hear early on a Sunday morning.

Apogee · 24-09-2014 6:29pm

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

I'm not sure if BBC Radio 4 Long Wave 198kHz has a long bright future though as the BBC is making plenty of cuts across the board and if they are not closing transmitters they are saving power by not boosting signals as strong to save power for cheaper operating outcomes.

Apparently, BBC R4 LW will shut down then they run out of valves!

The Guardian wrote:

BBC Radio 4 long wave, which transmits on the 198 kilohertz frequency, relies on ageing transmitter equipment that uses a pair of the valves – no longer manufactured – to function.

The valves, at Droitwich in Worcestershire, are so rare that engineers say there are fewer than 10 in the world, and the BBC has been forced to buy up the entire global supply. Each lasts anywhere between one and 10 years, and when one of the last two blows the service will go quiet.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2011/oct/09/bbc-radio4-long-wave-goodbye

AwaitYourReply · 24-09-2014 6:29pm

The BBC either sold off or introduced other services on MW

1053 + 1089 kHz MW became "TalkSport" but was once BBC Radio One MW
693 + 909 kHz MW became "BBC Radio 5Live" (news+sport) but was once BBC Radio Two MW i think

Ireland had these AM Medium Wave and Long Wave frequencies:

Century Radio on 1143 kHz MW Closed early 90s when station closed down
RTÉ Radio 2 on 1278 KhZ MW shut
RTÉ Radio 1 on both 567 kHz and 729 kHz MW shut
Atlantic 252 on 252kHz LW became RTÉ Radio One LW 252 kHz when MW frequencies were switched off

I wonder would it have been cheaper for RTÉ Radio to maintain and operate if they had actually kept this service on MW rather than moving it to LW a few years ago?

Antenna · 24-09-2014 6:35pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

When I said "non licence payers" - I meant folks in UK and near mainland europe.

Its difficult to justify spending 1million+ per year from the proceeds of a 26county licence fee, to provice a service to a small number of folks outside the 26counties who nowadays have multiple ways of receiving RTE.

.

They (RTE) are paying for coverage outside the 26 counties in other respects, it has not just been LW252.

RTE1 and 2 TV and TG4 is carried on 3 TV transmitters within Northern Ireland (on a 'Mini-Mux') to boost coverage beyond those who can receive from Saorview transmitters south of the border. A far as I know RTE has to fund this in full themelves, though TG4 carriage is grant-aided on cultural grounds.

Interesting to read RTE are still paying for leased shortwave radio transmitters to broadcast the All-Ireland finals to Africa. How much does this cost? does RTE fund this in full or is there a contribution from anywhere else? Will it be done again next year?

AwaitYourReply · 24-09-2014 6:37pm

The BBC Radio 4 LW 198kHz piece on the rare valves rings a bell now that you mention it Apogee! I think I recall viewing a programme on BBC TV not long ago about it and if I am not mistaken the may have decided to reduce the power in order to prolong the use of the valves. Fascinating documentary and very well spotted Apogee!

AwaitYourReply · 24-09-2014 6:44pm

Antenna wrote: »

Interesting to read RTE are still paying for leased shortwave radio transmitters to broadcast the All-Ireland finals to Africa. How much does this cost? does RTE fund this in full or is there a contribution from anywhere else? Will it be done again next year?

I recall coming across this alright in previous years but I'd no idea that RTÉ were still doing so. Perhaps after the deal with Sky Sports and the new GAAGO app. joint arrangement between RTÉ/GAA they will be able to cease leasing the Short Wave frequencies for All-Ireland Hurling & Football senior championship finals at some point in the future.

24-09-2014 6:47pm

I debated the legitimacy of that article on 198 at the time. The transmitter dates from 1985 so it isn't that old. There's many older units out there that are still in use.

L1011 · 24-09-2014 7:24pm

I can't see how a 1985 era transmitter would use valves at all when RTE/RTL were able to buy one in 1989 that was solid state (just a power monster compared to a modern one).

end of the road · 24-09-2014 7:31pm

cml387 wrote: »

BBC R4 on 198kHz has a part to play in the British nuclear deterrent
It is one of the considerations an RN captain would use in the use of his weapons if the 198kHz signal was gone.

As a backup,RTE's signal would have been helpful. Maybe RTE should have consulted the MOD before closing the service.

interesting. do you know that they didn't consult the UK ministry of defence in relation to this?

end of the road · 24-09-2014 7:32pm

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

The BBC either sold off or introduced other services on MW

1053 + 1089 kHz MW became "TalkSport" but was once BBC Radio One MW
693 + 909 kHz MW became "BBC Radio 5Live" (news+sport) but was once BBC Radio Two MW i think

Ireland had these AM Medium Wave and Long Wave frequencies:

Century Radio on 1143 kHz MW Closed early 90s when station closed down
RTÉ Radio 2 on 1278 KhZ MW shut
RTÉ Radio 1 on both 567 kHz and 729 kHz MW shut
Atlantic 252 on 252kHz LW became RTÉ Radio One LW 252 kHz when MW frequencies were switched off

I wonder would it have been cheaper for RTÉ Radio to maintain and operate if they had actually kept this service on MW rather than moving it to LW a few years ago?

radio 1 was on 252 years before SW shut down

Apogee · 24-09-2014 9:06pm

MYOB wrote: »

I can't see how a 1985 era transmitter would use valves at all when RTE/RTL were able to buy one in 1989 that was solid state (just a power monster compared to a modern one).

Alix Pryde - Director, BBC Distribution (July 2012) wrote:

In practice, determining how much longer the infrastructure will remain serviceable is not a precise science, as it depends on the reliability of the small number of remaining valves that are fundamental to the transmitter at Droitwich. The life of each valve is affected by a wide number of factors, including the original manufacturing process, the method and integrity of storage between manufacture and usage, and the way in which the valve is then put into service. All of these elements together determine the amount of stress which the valve is able to take, and it is not possible to be certain about the life of an individual valve before it is put into service. A valve may last a thousand hours or ten thousand hours; indeed, we understand that one of the current valves in service at Droitwich has been in service for more than a hundred thousand hours to date.

Source:
http://www.elexon.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/BBC-Letter-John-Mottram-180712.pdf

ford fiesta · 24-09-2014 9:49pm

sad to see it go.

end of an era...will be the first time radio 1 will not be on either LW or MW

L1011 · 24-09-2014 10:11pm

Apogee wrote: »

Source:
http://www.elexon.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/BBC-Letter-John-Mottram-180712.pdf

Suggests vast incompetence on the part of whoever bought the new kit in 1985 then.

turbocab · 24-09-2014 11:06pm

I guess the bbc could get that 252 transmitter for a song ,if they put a bid in for it .to replace the old valve rig on 198

Fuzzy Clam · 24-09-2014 11:55pm

MYOB wrote: »

I can't see how a 1985 era transmitter would use valves at all when RTE/RTL were able to buy one in 1989 that was solid state (just a power monster compared to a modern one).

IIRC the 1989 era 252 transmitter was a PDM (pulse duration or pulse width modulation) transmitter with valves in the outputs. The effiency was better than that of older valve transmitters using high level modulation
The one installed in 2007 was transistor.
In 1985, high power transistor transmitters were either not available or if they were, may have been unreliable.

AwaitYourReply · 24-09-2014 11:55pm

end of the road wrote: »

radio 1 was on 252 years before SW shut down

Yes this is true however; it was only for brief 30mins periods each weekday and slightly longer across weekends prior to the year 2004 and all via the WRN network along with the GAA All-Ireland Hurling & Football Senior Championship Finals.

Currently it is just the GAA All-Ireland Hurling & Football Senior Championship Finals that go out on Short Wave (SW) as specially leased for these purposes only although; I'm not sure whether the current deal with Sky Sports and new GAAGO mobile app (a joint venture between the GAA & RTÉ) has any effect on the SW coverage arrangments previously put in place for the All-Ireland finals. Time will tell on this too no doubt...

philtrum · 24-09-2014 11:57pm

252LW was the only frequency I could listen to RTE R1 between south Kilkenny and Waterford on the way to work. FM there is choppy. I'll miss it. Maybe it's just me, but the sound quality on LW sounds more like 'radio'.

Fuzzy Clam · 25-09-2014 12:08am

MYOB wrote: »

Suggests vast incompetence on the part of whoever bought the new kit in 1985 then.

I disagree for the reasons in my other post.

AwaitYourReply · 25-09-2014 12:18am

Oh I think many drivers will miss not being able to receive RTÉ Radio 1 as FM can be patchy & unreliable along many routes so folk were glad to have access to RTÉ Radio 1 LW 252kHz at times when their FM became so bad it was not audible. This is another reason why I am concerned at this decision.

I was only driving from Cork to Galway recently and I had to give up trying to listen on FM for RTÉ Radio 1 because I could follow a programme over the constant interruptions and cut-outs but guess what...I still had access to RTÉ Radio 1 via LW 252kHz and was glad to be able to continue listening to it at the time while on the move.

One would think that the signal for FM would be greatly improved or boosted for the main national public service broadcasting radio before they made the final decision to shut broadcasting on AM Long Wave or Medium Wave band frequencies especially given that DAB was never extensively rolled out across the nation after all this time here in the Republic of Ireland.

RTÉ Radio 1 on LW 252kHz (or else on MW again) should continue to be available in areas where FM reception coverage is not reliable as people should be able to receive this service on the move across the whole country.

munchkin_utd · 25-09-2014 12:28am

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

I recall coming across this alright in previous years but I'd no idea that RTÉ were still doing so. Perhaps after the deal with Sky Sports and the new GAAGO app. joint arrangement between RTÉ/GAA they will be able to cease leasing the Short Wave frequencies for All-Ireland Hurling & Football senior championship finals at some point in the future.

Just as a reminder, Sky covers
A ) Ireland
B ) uk
So irrelevant to folks listening to sw in Africa

The GAA go thingie is only online, so some priest in the bush in Africa won't have access as they won't have access to internet.
So for the all ireland final, a special SW broadcast may happen for a while yet.

But, the sporadic sw broadcasts being permitted asks the question as to why lw maybe couldn't have been continued part time too?
Cover the important stuff, live sports broadcasts and the morning/ evening current affairs shows and save many 100s of thousands of euro in electricity costs in not broadcasting at night or during the afternoon.
The cost benefit would be more in line with what could be justified.
4 or 5 hours per day (and a little more on occasion) is a lot less electricity needed than 24 hours a day 365 days a year.

AwaitYourReply · 25-09-2014 12:40am

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Just as a reminder, Sky covers
A ) Ireland
B ) uk
So irrelevant to folks listening to sw in Africa

The GAA go thingie is only online, so some priest in the bush in Africa won't have access as they won't have access to internet.
So for the all ireland final, a special SW broadcast may happen for a while yet.

But, the sporadic sw broadcasts being permitted asks the question as to why lw maybe couldn't have been continued part time too?
Cover the important stuff, live sports broadcasts and the morning/ evening current affairs shows and save many 100s of thousands of euro in electricity costs in not broadcasting at night or during the afternoon.
The cost benefit would be more in line with what could be justified.
4 or 5 hours per day (and a little more on occasion) is a lot less electricity needed than 24 hours a day 365 days a year.

Excellent points raised there - I sincerely hope that RTÉ Management will have a serious re-think before closing the door altogether on LW forever. Let common sense prevail at the end of the day.

Fuzzy Clam · 25-09-2014 1:27am

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

Excellent points raised there - I sincerely hope that RTÉ Management will have a serious re-think before closing the door altogether on LW forever. Let common sense prevail at the end of the day.

Common sense has prevailed. Operational costs, not electricity, are the main brunt of the costs. These are unlikely to change except maybe to increase. The saving would be minimal.
No matter what way you look at it, its mainly a duplicate service. Highly inefficient with relation to the number of listeners.
Should have either been shut down or utilised for a unique service years ago.

AwaitYourReply · 25-09-2014 2:02am

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Common sense has prevailed. Operational costs, not electricity, are the main brunt of the costs. These are unlikely to change except maybe to increase. The saving would be minimal.
No matter what way you look at it, its mainly a duplicate service. Highly inefficient with relation to the number of listeners.
Should have either been shut down or utilised for a unique service years ago.

Actually, I do not think common sense has prevailed at all because I think RTÉ have flip-flopped around on the issue to date and it has probably cost them a small fortune in the process. They should have kept some form of presence on MW for certain speech led services like News, Sports, RnaG and sold off the LW 252 kHz instead of investing heavily in what was already a declining broadcast format for many years. But they axed MW first in favour of LW only a few years ago and now here we are again.

Atlantic 252 was a fun service in it's day but the hollow dead sound of all music tracks played on LW 252kHz prevented it from future growth.

Now that they have made the mistake - they should bear in mind that their FM service is currently lacking reliable signal coverage even along some major intercity routes in places. They should improve their FM reception signal strength first before shutting this vital service down in my view. Otherwise; consider other options as I think all RTÉ Radio 1 both FM + LW services should be receivable even when on the move particularly alongside the national roads network across Ireland. After all, this is supposed to be our national public service broadcasting station (not some irrelevant pirate) and it's FM reception is often unreliable in certain parts of this country.

Losty Dublin · 25-09-2014 12:13pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Cover the important stuff, live sports broadcasts and the morning/ evening current affairs shows and save many 100s of thousands of euro in electricity costs in not broadcasting at night or during the afternoon.
The cost benefit would be more in line with what could be justified.
4 or 5 hours per day (and a little more on occasion) is a lot less electricity needed than 24 hours a day 365 days a year.

To switch a transmitter on and off daily requires technicians, be they onsite or done remotely. Using it part time still incurs these costs, much of the power consumption and additional wear and tear of the TX system from start up and shut down cycles so it will still cost money to do this.

Crucially it all but ties up the frequency and transmission from reallocation or leasing. I can't see 252 being left idle in the long term the trouble is finding somebody in this day and age with the appetite and pocket to spend a seven figure sum for such a broadcast facility, regardless of who wants it.

Cork_chick_94 · 25-09-2014 12:29pm

I wonder would spirit radio have any interest in renting 252 ? Their 549 Channel can't be picked up in alot of the country.

Mr. Rabbit · 25-09-2014 1:02pm

I wonder if there will be an outcry from listeners in the North who cannot receive RTE Radio One on any other frequency other than Long Wave ?

There was the last time when 567 kHz closed, which prompted RTE to switch their FM frequency on Clermont Cairn from 95.2 to 87.8 (due to interference from Carnmoney Hill)

Not everyone has the internet, or satellite TV/Radio.

Or maybe they'll remove the null to the north from the DAB transmitter on CC, or even maybe go on the DAB local mux in NI where there's loads of free space now.

Losty Dublin · 25-09-2014 1:31pm

Cork_chick_94 wrote: »

I wonder would spirit radio have any interest in renting 252 ? Their 549 Channel can't be picked up in alot of the country.

Spirit can't even pay wages to most of their staff as it is. I'd love to see how long the on beg-athon to pay for 252 would last :pac::D

RTE Radio 1 on 252!

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