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Jon Snow's mother

  • 16-02-2012 8:34pm
    #1
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15,001 ✭✭✭✭


    So how does a thread like this work then? :D

    I've read the books and have a pretty firm belief who I think his mother is, but I can't really remember if I formed that belief from watching the series or if it came later from reading the books (probably later...). In fact, does posting that we still don't know the answer after reading the books count as a spoiler?

    ... and also, considering we don't know the answer, does my posting who I think it is count as a spoiler? I guess it probably does, considering Mr Martin has put more clues and such (or at least I think they're clues!) in the later books.

    So tell us tv viewers, ever thought about it much? Any thoughts?

    My view, is that:

    Spoiler for all 5 books:
    it's got to be Lyanna Stark, with Rhaegar Targaryen as the father. HAS to be!

    Poor old Ned, shouldering the dishonour for all those years to protect his sister's little dragon-wolf hybrid from the likes of Robert and Tywin Lannister.

    Poor Jon too. Although I suspect he'll be back to join forces with Dany eventually...


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,810 ✭✭✭Seren_


    I think it's the same as you. There are SO many clues throughout the books (and I've only read the first two so far :pac:). It was actually something in the TV show that made me think that
    Ned wasn't really Jon's father
    , but I can't remember what. It just seems
    jarring with his character too. How are we supposed to believe that a guy who is so held up on honour would cheat on his wife, even if he didn't know her that well at the time. He also seems quite dismissive and embarrassed about Robert having illegitimate children, even though he's supposed to have one himself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    Spot on for me.
    One of the main things about Eddard is that he is considered to be one of the most loyal men in Westeros. Nobody really knows who Eddard was supposed to have porked. That scene in the first book when Robert is reminiscing with Eddard when they're out hunting and Robert doesn't even remember the supposed girl's name. This is weird as his friend is considered so virtuous, surely his best mate knows what happened. There are also 3 dragons. So Dany and Aegon plus one more. Catelyn also mentions that Jon looks the most like the Starks out of all of Eddard's kids.

    Edit:
    Actually one of the big things is how loving he seems when he tells Jon in book one that he would tell him about his mother next time he sees him. You don't get the impression that she was some dirty mistake, but someone he actually loved.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭madrab


    We will have to wait until either:
    A:
    Bran learns more greenseeing and witnessing something resembling it in the past

    or

    B:
    We finally meet Howland Reed at some stage - he is the only one still living who was at the Tower of Joy where Eddard and Howland fought their way in and killed Gerold Hightower, Oswell Went and and Athur Dayne, the sword of the morning


  • Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭Kay_80


    I agree totally re
    Lyanna being the mother, and for a long while did work with Rhaegar being the baby daddy

    However after reading the books (all except for a Dance with Dragons which I'm purposefully holding off on because I don't want to wait 5 years for the next installment so knowing I have that still to read keeps me going! I've begun to wonder is it possible that
    Rather than Rhaegar being the baby daddy that it's Robert? I know the time line may not work but I was thinking that Jon is always being described as being 'of an age' with Rob but what if it's a case he's actually a little older? Is It possible from a timeline point of view? Could Lyanna and Robert have conceived Jon at Harranhal before Rhaegar crowned her queen of love and beauty and they ran off together/she was abducted depending on what way you want to read into it? I don't recall a timeline being described between her original 'abduction' and when she was rescued at the tower of Joy
    I've always thought that she died in childbirth (it's described as in a bed of blood) and the promise she made Ned swear was to bring Jon up as his own but to never tell Robert or anyone else. It's described that Robert was very much in love with Lyanna but she was not as into him as it were and she didn't like his phillandering ways so maybe didn't want her/their son growing up like that. Jon has the same colouring as Robert and Roberts bastards (I'm thinking Gendry, Edric Storm etc)not that of the Targaryens ie blond and fair skin - but I know Lyanna being dark (I'm assuming she was considering they say Arya looks so much like Lyanna did) that could explain why
    After watching the series a couple of times I wonder is that why Ned gets somewhat angry at Robert when he asks him about who Jons mother is and that he's angry because he's protecting Lyanna's honor but also angry at himself for his own Honor code and going against that by lying to him about both Lyanna being the mother and possibly Robert maybe being the father


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15,001 ✭✭✭✭Pepe LeFrits


    http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/2291/

    I don't think the timeslines match up for that.
    Besides, if Jon is Robert's son, I don't see any solid rationale for making Ned assume the dishonour. Jon would likely have been considered heir to the throne considering Robert and Lyanna were betrothed.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭Gilldog


    Im also really interested in finding out what the have in store for Jon Snow's character...mainly because there seems to be hints of his potential to be a great warrior (his great skills with a sword, and his troubles with his identity/ something to prove) then say for example he found out who his real mother was he may want to avenge her death - but how can he if he is stuck manning The Wall?

    I keep thinking that they have made it pretty impossible to go anywhere decent with that character (barring a miracle) because, like Ned, he is a man of honour and he took the oath which means if were to go off on a crusade of some sort (which would be brilliant) he would be hunted down and beheaded for desertion....its a bit of a dead end, I mean, how could he get around that, he has made his choice, to stay there for life. It just seems so weird that they are hinting at all this hidden stuff that he seemingly won't be able to deal with.

    Sorry if that sounds weird, I havent read the books, just rewatched the whole first season in anticipation for April 1st.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭Tzar Chasm


    Gilldog wrote: »
    Im also really interested in finding out what the have in store for Jon Snow's character...mainly because there seems to be hints of his potential to be a great warrior (his great skills with a sword, and his troubles with his identity/ something to prove) then say for example he found out who his real mother was he may want to avenge her death - but how can he if he is stuck manning The Wall?

    I keep thinking that they have made it pretty impossible to go anywhere decent with that character (barring a miracle) because, like Ned, he is a man of honour and he took the oath which means if were to go off on a crusade of some sort (which would be brilliant) he would be hunted down and beheaded for desertion....its a bit of a dead end, I mean, how could he get around that, he has made his choice, to stay there for life. It just seems so weird that they are hinting at all this hidden stuff that he seemingly won't be able to deal with.

    Sorry if that sounds weird, I havent read the books, just rewatched the whole first season in anticipation for April 1st.
    Ah if you read the books you would be pleased with how lord snow turns out, right up to his last chapter iin dwd


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭Tzar Chasm


    I'd never considered lyanna as a candidate as snows mother, there was a bit when arya rode with the banner less men and one of them said he was snows milk brother


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭Gilldog


    Tzar Chasm wrote: »
    Ah if you read the books you would be pleased with how lord snow turns out, right up to his last chapter iin dwd


    Another reason for me to get the books then :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,879 ✭✭✭stesaurus


    After the first book I thought Jon's mother was
    Ashara Dayne
    and didn't really think there was much mystery to it.
    Then after maybe the 3rd book I read a theory that it was
    Lyanna
    . I assumed she had been
    raped by Rhaegar
    and that's what led to the rebellion. However the more you find out about
    Rhaegar
    the less that seems possible until you start reading the books with the thought of them falling in love and wanting to be together. All the clues then start to fit and at this stage I convinced his mother is
    Lyanna
    and Ned is just keeping his promise.
    You have to feel a bit sorry for
    Robert
    though. Only woman he really loved and it was unrequited.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Gauge


    I enjoyed the way
    Lyanna and Rhaegar's story became more and more clear as the books went on. And all signs definitely point to Lyanna being the mother- the 'bed of blood' certainly would suggest she'd given birth, the 'promise' Ned made was to raise her son (and I'm guessing, tell no one who his real parents were). Hopefully Howland Reed will show up in the next book and shed some light on it.

    That said, we all know that GRRM is an enormous troll, it wouldn't surprise me
    if he was deliberately steering the readers to this conclusion only to tell them SURPRISE! Jon's mother was just a random whore after all. Or, never reveal it at all. Either wouldn't shock me tbh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    From what we know of Robert,
    he wouldn't have loved any woman who returned the feeling imho. He was all about the hunt, the chase, the fighting of the rebellion and deeply miserable when sitting the throne rather than savouring his achievement.

    R + L = J is simply too foreshadowed and dodged as a question by GRRM not to be true imho!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,584 ✭✭✭c - 13


    Hmm I was re-reading this recently and
    One of the outlaws claims to be Jon's milk brother by Ashara Dayne. I had been wondering about the Lyana link up to that. They spend a lot of time enforcing that Jon looks more like Eddard than any of his other sons though - IIRC the decriptions of Lyanna are not all to similar to Eddard looks wise though ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Arya is referenced to be the spitting image of Lyanna on more than one occasion.


  • Subscribers Posts: 32,846 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    I'd be surprised if the speculation above wasn't true.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Arya is referenced to be the spitting image of Lyanna on more than one occasion.
    And she is mentioned as being the closest to John as well...


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    I meant it more that if Arya looks a lot like Ned's sister, it'd hardly be surprising if Lyanna's son looked like Ned. ;)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    Ah, that's a good point too :)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I'm confused... weren't we told who Jon's mother was in ADWD?

    Or does nobody believe that?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,879 ✭✭✭stesaurus


    Dades wrote: »
    I'm confused... weren't we told who Jon's mother was in ADWD?

    Or does nobody believe that?

    Nobody believes it, plus that was just hear'say and rumour.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,126 ✭✭✭✭calex71


    s.welstead wrote: »
    Nobody believes it, plus that was just hear'say and rumour.

    Same as Aria was told if memory serves in the 2nd or 3rd book something about a woman who
    threw herself off a tower or castle wall


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    s.welstead wrote: »
    Nobody believes it, plus that was just hear'say and rumour.
    Hmm. I'd believe George would throw a curveball like that actually being true and therefore dashing all the other dramatic rumours.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Son0vagun


    I have a bad feeling about
    R+L=J
    I believe it was GRRM intentions to orginally have R+L=J, but then all the theories started! The arrival and surival of Aegon in ADWD was a bit of a surpise. Why introduce such a big curveball so late in the ASOIAF series? Well maybe GRRM has plans for Rhaegars Heir, orginally it was going to be Jon, but then not wanting to give fans what they wanted, GRRM decided to resurrect Aegon. Therefore GRRMs intended arc for Rhaegars Heir now passes to Aegon!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,879 ✭✭✭stesaurus


    calex71 wrote: »
    Same as Aria was told if memory serves in the 2nd or 3rd book something about a woman who
    threw herself off a tower or castle wall

    Ashara Dayne, I think Eddard and Ashara would have married if Brandon hadn't died meaning Eddard had to marry Catelyn. Could she have conceived, given birth and then killed herself in that timeframe? Possible I guess.

    Dades wrote: »
    Hmm. I'd believe George would throw a curveball like that actually being true and therefore dashing all the other dramatic rumours.

    He is a bit of a bollix like that! :D
    Son0vagun wrote: »
    I have a bad feeling about
    R+L=J
    I believe it was GRRM intentions to orginally have R+L=J, but then all the theories started! The arrival and surival of Aegon in ADWD was a bit of a surpise. Why introduce such a big curveball so late in the ASOIAF series? Well maybe GRRM has plans for Rhaegars Heir, orginally it was going to be Jon, but then not wanting to give fans what they wanted, GRRM decided to resurrect Aegon. Therefore GRRMs intended arc for Rhaegars Heir now passes to Aegon!

    Anything is possible I guess, maybe he's making us now think that it's not true so that we accept other theories and then he'll turn around and reveal it was true all along. We could second guess him all day but the theory fits really well so I'll stick with it.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15,001 ✭✭✭✭Pepe LeFrits


    Son0vagun wrote: »
    I have a bad feeling about
    R+L=J
    I believe it was GRRM intentions to orginally have R+L=J, but then all the theories started! The arrival and surival of Aegon in ADWD was a bit of a surpise. Why introduce such a big curveball so late in the ASOIAF series? Well maybe GRRM has plans for Rhaegars Heir, orginally it was going to be Jon, but then not wanting to give fans what they wanted, GRRM decided to resurrect Aegon. Therefore GRRMs intended arc for Rhaegars Heir now passes to Aegon!
    Possible... of course, it could be a deliberate red herring that he'll expand upon to keep everyone guessing until the reveal.

    Also, is it that late in the series? There'll be 2 more books at least!

    Also, based on reading a little on the future books on wikipedia:
    "Displeased with the provisional title A Time For Wolves for the final volume,[23] Martin ultimately announced A Dream of Spring as the title for the seventh book in 2006"

    Interesting to see what the focus of the original title of the final book was...

    and

    "Martin is confident to have published the remaining books before the TV series overtakes him, although he told major plot points to the two main Game of Thrones producers in case he should die. (Aged 62 in 2011, Martin is by all accounts in robust health.) ... He knows the ending in broad strokes as well as the future of the main characters, which will have bittersweet elements where not everyone will live happily ever after."

    It seems unlikely to me that he'd so drastically change his plans for a central character half way through. Can't say I'd rule it out of course!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Gauge


    Found this page that goes into the various theories and hints, it's a good read anyway!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭Tzar Chasm


    Jon can't be the third dragon tho, dragons cannot be burned, jon has had his sword hand burnt fighting a wight


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,126 ✭✭✭✭calex71


    s.welstead wrote: »
    Ashara Dayne, I think Eddard and Ashara would have married if Brandon hadn't died meaning Eddard had to marry Catelyn.

    Wasn't he already married to Catelyn though at that point :confused: Wasn't was newly married and away fighting during that time?

    I might be remembering the time line wrong there though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    Tzar Chasm wrote: »
    Jon can't be the third dragon tho, dragons cannot be burned, jon has had his sword hand burnt fighting a wight
    Good point actually. Never thought of that.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Doesn't mean he can't be a dragon rider though ;)

    ADWD Spolier:
    And since the next book will see Jon return from the dead (possibly as Azor Ahei?) his new body may not burn ;)


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