Justification!

Soul Winner · 05-12-2007 3:07pm #1

Justification before God! Is it by Works of the Law or by Grace through Faith? Or a mixtrue of both? What do you believe is the right way to go and why?

BrianCalgary · 05-12-2007 4:50pm

Salvation by grace:
Romans 3:24
and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

What the Bible has to say about works:
Romans 4:4
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.

Romans 4:6
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Ephesians 4:12
to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

Ephesians 2:8-10 sums it all up:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We are saved by the grace of God. Romans 4:4 speaks of works as an obligation not a gift. We therefore have an obligation as Christians to do God's work.

The book of James describes what faith without works looks like:
James 2:26
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

There are those who would point to this verse and claim that works are necessary for salvation. But this verse has nothing to do with salvation and everything to do with measuring our faith. If we are not doing anything to build the body our faith is dead. If we are working in the body then our faith is alive.

Soul Winner · 05-12-2007 5:22pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Salvation by grace:
Romans 3:24
and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

What the Bible has to say about works:
Romans 4:4
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.

Romans 4:6
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Ephesians 4:12
to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

Ephesians 2:8-10 sums it all up:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We are saved by the grace of God. Romans 4:4 speaks of works as an obligation not a gift. We therefore have an obligation as Christians to do God's work.

The book of James describes what faith without works looks like:
James 2:26
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

There are those who would point to this verse and claim that works are necessary for salvation. But this verse has nothing to do with salvation and everything to do with measuring our faith. If we are not doing anything to build the body our faith is dead. If we are working in the body then our faith is alive.

But what do you believe is the right way to proceed? Do we concentrate on "Faith" or "Works"? It's like the chicken and the egg problem, which comes first? Wouldn't you agree that in order to proceed in this discussion it would be beneficial if we could define both faith and works?

If James is correct in saying that "faith without deeds is dead" then we have established that faith and works (deeds) are not the same thing. If works can be defined as deeds then how we define faith? What is faith? If we are to take James as solid ground upon which to proceed then he also points out that faith is different from mere belief. James 2 v 19. If so then what is faith if it is neither works nor just belief? How do we define faith?

kelly1 · 05-12-2007 10:03pm

Soul Winner wrote: »

Justification before God! Is it by Works of the Law or by Grace through Faith? Or a mixtrue of both? What do you believe is the right way to go and why?

Hello Soul Winner, I believe that both faith and works are necessary for salvation. But it is grace that actually saves us. True faith and works of charity win God's grace for us. Good works means keeping the commandments and being charitable towards our neighbour. If faith alone were enough, Jesus wouldn't have said this:

Matthew 25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

Matthew 19:17 .... But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love;

Soul Winner wrote: »

But what do you believe is the right way to proceed? Do we concentrate on "Faith" or "Works"? It's like the chicken and the egg problem, which comes first? Wouldn't you agree that in order to proceed in this discussion it would be beneficial if we could define both faith and works?

If our faith is real, it will result in good works. Good works then gain for us more graces and grace results in greater faith so it goes in an upwards spiral (ideally). James is spot on. Our faith can't be real if we don't back it up with works.

Soul Winner wrote: »

If works can be defined as deeds then how we define faith? What is faith? If we are to take James as solid ground upon which to proceed then he also points out that faith is different from mere belief. James 2 v 19. If so then what is faith if it is neither works nor just belief? How do we define faith?

I suppose faith goes further than belief because it means taking on God's word wholeheartedly and believing that God has our best interests at heart. The devil believes in Jesus but doesn't do His will. True faith means living according to the Gospel and abandoning oneself to Divine providence. That's what I think anyway!

God bless,
Noel.

Soul Winner · 06-12-2007 2:39am

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello Soul Winner, I believe that both faith and works are necessary for salvation. But it is grace that actually saves us. True faith and works of charity win God's grace for us. Good works means keeping the commandments and being charitable towards our neighbour. If faith alone were enough, Jesus wouldn't have said this:

Firstly hello Noel

Nice to hear someone speaking from the heart. There's too much encyclopaedic commentary-ish type response in forums like these. Ok where to start??? Right...

Hhhmmmm. I don't know about that. I feel that it is diametrically apposed to what Paul wrote in his letters. For instance he exhorts the Saints at Galatia to not be drawn into works of the law because as he says if you are under one jot of the law you are indebted to do the whole law. The whole letter is filled with it. I do agree that good works are the natural out growth of sustained faith in God's Word but I don't believe that God takes us on them as the premise for salvation. There is only one premise upon which we stand and that is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. His blood poured out to pay the penalty for all mankind's sin. Paul said if justification could come by works of the law then Christ died in vain.

kelly1 wrote: »

Matthew 25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

Matthew 19:17 .... But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love;

That's exactly my point. We can't keep His commandments. Can you say in your heart of hearts that you have kept all the commandments your whole life up till now? And not just kept them but actually have not even thought a bad thought in your heart or mind? Jesus also said: You heard it said unto you that you shall not kill, but behold I say unto you that if you hate in your heart then you are as guilty as a murderer" or You've heard it said unto you, that you shall not commit adultery, but behold I say unto you that if you lust in your heart then you are as guilty as an adulterer" The judgments that Jesus is dishing out in your quotes can only be to those who appear at the White Throne judgment as described in Revelation where everyone is damned because they come on the basis of their works. But there is another Judgement seat (The Judgment seat of Christ) where Christ dishes out the rewards to the saints saved in every generation through out history; there is no condemnation at this throne because He took that condemnation on Himself for those who are in Him by faith.

kelly1 wrote: »

If our faith is real, it will result in good works. Good works then gain for us more graces and grace results in greater faith so it goes in an upwards spiral (ideally). James is spot on. Our faith can't be real if we don't back it up with works.

The word Grace in the Greek written phonetically is "Charis" which means unmerited favour. That means that it cannot be earned. Therefore any Grace that we have is purely and act of love from God toward us that has no basis in anything that we can do. When grace is merited it ceases to be grace. The reward is reckoned of debt. This is the word used by Paul over and over again in his letters to the saints in the New Testament. They did more great works than we do today and they were saved by this same Grace, so their salvation was not based on their works, great and all that they may have been.

kelly1 wrote: »

I suppose faith goes further than belief because it means taking on God's word wholeheartedly and believing that God has our best interests at heart. The devil believes in Jesus but doesn't do His will. True faith means living according to the Gospel and abandoning oneself to Divine providence. That's what I think anyway!

God bless,
Noel.

Yes I agree with that, although the total abandoning of oneself does not necessarily have to come straight away. When starting out in faith you need to take it one step at a time. After experiencing God's faithfulness to His word enough times in your life the natural faith growth will lead to a real abandoning of oneself to total giving over of oneself to God which is the true meaning of sainthood. If you study the great men of God throughout history you'll see that in many case that they came to this solid faith in the latter stages of their lives. And God says of them in Hebrews 11 that he was not ashamed to be called their God.

Let me define faith as I understand it. Faith (or Pistis the noun in the Greek or the verb which is Pisteo) is an action word. An action based upon belief and sustained by confidence in the object of the action. By that definition everyone has Faith because everyone acts upon beliefs and sustains those actions every day. It is not restricted to Religious connotations. You act in Faith when you simply walk. You assume your feet will stay on the ground because experience has thought you that gravity (invisible though it may be) will keep them there and you act accordingly. It’s something you don't even think about most of the time. But what’s the difference between this kind of faith action and saving Faith which is Faith in God? Well Faith in God’s Word is acting on a promise made by God in His Word and continuing that action until that which was promised becomes a fact. And that fact could materialise on this side of eternity or on the other side but the important thing to remember is that you are acting on His promise(s).

An example of this could be when someone is very sick. The promise in God's Word that someone who is sick could claim is: "I am the Lord that heals you". But how would someone go about actually claiming that promise? Well God's Word also tells us that "we are not to descend in the debts and bring Him up or to ascend into the heavens and bring Him down. The word is already near you, speak it forth for with the heart man believes and with the mouth proclamation is made unto salvation." Is there a limit on what promises we can claim? No, it also says that “all the promise of God in Him are yes and Amen” in other words you can claim all of the promises in God’s Word based on this verse of scripture. This means a sick person can have salvation by simply believing in his heart that God promises to heal him and then actually speak the promise with his mouth unto God who is faithful to his promises. Does the sick person need anyone else to hear this? Not at all, only God. You don’t need to shout it from the roof tops (although you could if you wanted to) but as Jesus says you can go into your closet and speak to God in private. This act of faith the scripture says puts you in Christ and Christ in you (to use legal terminology). In other words God does not see you as you anymore whether you get healed or not. Once you act in Faith in a promise of God you are seen as though you are Christ. “How?” You may say. “I don't deserve to be seen as though I am Christ.” You're right but Christ paid the price for God to be able to do this. When Christ bore the sins of the world God looked at Him in a way He did not deserve so that once this act of sacrifice was completed He could then turn to us on a new premise which is Faith in God’s promises as apposed to the old premise which was the way of the Law by which standard all have sinned and are hopeless.

Sorry if I sound preachy but this makes more sense to me than needing to have works added. I think our works of the law do more to pollute because they are not generated by the spirit in us by faith. But I am all for good works generated by the indwelt spirit but even these should not be offered to God as basis for salvation. It would be an insult to God and His Son and His sacrifice for us to do so.

kelly1 · 06-12-2007 1:39pm

Soul Winner wrote: »

Hhhmmmm. I don't know about that. I feel that it is diametrically apposed to what Paul wrote in his letters. For instance he exhorts the Saints at Galatia to not be drawn into works of the law because as he says if you are under one jot of the law you are indebted to do the whole law. The whole letter is filled with it. I do agree that good works are the natural out growth of sustained faith in God's Word but I don't believe that God takes us on them as the premise for salvation. There is only one premise upon which we stand and that is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. His blood poured out to pay the penalty for all mankind's sin. Paul said if justification could come by works of the law then Christ died in vain.

Let me clarify. When Paul speak of the "works of the law", isn't he referring to the Old Law which involves circumcision, washing of hands, avoiding certain foods etc?

I'm sorry to admit that I don't read the bible as much as I should but I'm trying to change that (just finished Acts) so I'm no expert!

I think Paul also refers to the fact that is it not by good works that we are justified but the the merits an grace of Christ. I believe that nothing we do can make us just in the sight of God. Hundreds of years of atonement will not erase the *guilt* of a single sin. Christ and Christ alone can do this for us.

For our faith to have any substance we must keep the commandments. Do we agree in this? It is clear from the verses that I quoted that we must keep our side of the covenant. Accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour alone isn't enough. "Not all those who say Lord, Lord with enter the Kingdom of Heaven". Jesus didn't *ask* us to charitable to our neighbour, He commanded it!

I believe we are initially justified by faith but this must go hand-in-hand with works/charity is we are to continue being just in the sight of God. See Mt 25:41 again. The parable of the good Samarithan also comes to mind. Faith without works is dead. Can we have faith and still live a life attached to money, luxury, wine and sensuality &c and expect to enjoy Heaven? No, we must keep the commandments.

But it is God who makes the first move. We are justified in baptism through God's grace alone. This grace is a free gift from God and which we can never do anything to merit it except accepting this gift from God.

God loved us first and in order to remain in His love we must keep the commandments (see John 14,15). We do unto Christ what we do unto others.

Soul Winner wrote: »

That's exactly my point. We can't keep His commandments.

Why would God ask us to do the impossible? "Be perfect as your Father is Heaven is perfect". "If you love Me keep my commandments".

Soul Winner wrote: »

Can you say in your heart of hearts that you have kept all the commandments your whole life up till now? And not just kept them but actually have not even thought a bad thought in your heart or mind? Jesus also said: You heard it said unto you that you shall not kill, but behold I say unto you that if you hate in your heart then you are as guilty as a murderer" or You've heard it said unto you, that you shall not commit adultery, but behold I say unto you that if you lust in your heart then you are as guilty as an adulterer"

No, I certainly haven't kept the commandments all my life! "For all have sinned and fall short in the sight of God" (or something like that). The good news is that there's forgiveness for sins through the Blood of Jesus Christ for those who repent. Jesus knows our faults but He wants us to grow in love and holiness every day and get up again when we fall down, carrying our crosses. The commandments are the basis of mortal sin and breaking the commandments or commiting a mortal sin kills grace in the soul. So we must avoid mortal sin to be just and avoid venial sin in order to be perfect (all in the context of requiring God's grace to be justified).

Soul Winner wrote: »

The judgments that Jesus is dishing out in your quotes can only be to those who appear at the White Throne judgment as described in Revelation where everyone is damned because they come on the basis of their works.

Agreed, works alone will never justify us before God.

Soul Winner wrote: »

But there is another Judgement seat (The Judgment seat of Christ) where Christ dishes out the rewards to the saints saved in every generation through out history; there is no condemnation at this throne because He took that condemnation on Himself for those who are in Him by faith.

OK but Mt 25:41 still applies.

Soul Winner wrote: »

The word Grace in the Greek written phonetically is "Charis" which means unmerited favour. That means that it cannot be earned. Therefore any Grace that we have is purely and act of love from God toward us that has no basis in anything that we can do.

Yes I agree, grace is unmerited and only comes to us thorough God's goodness. But my point is that this grace can be destroyed by sin. Lack of charity breaks the commandments and causes us to lose our justice before God.

Soul Winner wrote: »

But what’s the difference between this kind of faith action and saving Faith which is Faith in God? Well Faith in God’s Word is acting on a promise made by God in His Word and continuing that action until that which was promised becomes a fact. And that fact could materialise on this side of eternity or on the other side but the important thing to remember is that you are acting on His promise(s).

I think it's important to remember that God made a New Covenant with the whole human race. And a covenant of course involves two parties in which they both agree to stick to their promises. God will of course keep His side of the bargain and we must keep ours to inherit eternal life.

Soul Winner wrote: »

This act of faith the scripture says puts you in Christ and Christ in you (to use legal terminology).

Yes, if your faith involves loving Christ which means keeping His commandments and not therefore commiting mortal sin.

Soul Winner wrote: »

In other words God does not see you as you anymore whether you get healed or not. Once you act in Faith in a promise of God you are seen as though you are Christ. “How?” You may say. “I don't deserve to be seen as though I am Christ.” You're right but Christ paid the price for God to be able to do this.

I don't think God sees the just as Christ? Rather we are justified by being united with Christ and Christ's merits become our merits. Christ is a shield between us and the wrath of God.

Soul Winner wrote: »

When Christ bore the sins of the world God looked at Him in a way He did not deserve so that once this act of sacrifice was completed He could then turn to us on a new premise which is Faith in God’s promises as apposed to the old premise which was the way of the Law by which standard all have sinned and are hopeless.

Sorry I don't understand this bit. How could God look at Christ in a way He did not deserve?

Soul Winner wrote: »

Sorry if I sound preachy but this makes more sense to me than needing to have works added. I think our works of the law do more to pollute because they are not generated by the spirit in us by faith. But I am all for good works generated by the indwelt spirit but even these should not be offered to God as basis for salvation. It would be an insult to God and His Son and His sacrifice for us to do so.

Agreed (partially). How do our works pollute and which law are you referring to? As I said already we are saved by grace at the end of the day. Faith results in grace and works/keeping the commandments keeps this grace alive in us.

I think we both agree that God did all the hard work. He gives grace freely without our deserving it. But we need to remain in God's love by keeping the commandments and we can be saved unless we love God.

That's how I understand it anyway!

God bless,
Noel.

BrianCalgary · 06-12-2007 4:46pm

The Bible is quite clear that justification is by God's grace alone. You are right kelly1 Paul is talking about the OT law.

However in having said that, works come as a result of our faith, but our salvation isn't predicated upon it.

When I decided to love my wife and to get married to her, I wished to do things for her, to make her feel loved and cared for.

In the same way when I came to know Christ my desire was and still is to serve Him. The works that I do are in response to love I have for Christ and a thank you for what He did for me.

Works are the result of justification which is the result of my faith which is a result of grace.

BrianCalgary · 06-12-2007 4:49pm

Soul Winner wrote: »

But what do you believe is the right way to proceed? Do we concentrate on "Faith" or "Works"? It's like the chicken and the egg problem, which comes first? Wouldn't you agree that in order to proceed in this discussion it would be beneficial if we could define both faith and works?

If James is correct in saying that "faith without deeds is dead" then we have established that faith and works (deeds) are not the same thing. If works can be defined as deeds then how we define faith? What is faith? If we are to take James as solid ground upon which to proceed then he also points out that faith is different from mere belief. James 2 v 19. If so then what is faith if it is neither works nor just belief? How do we define faith?

Faith is an action of trusting. We put our trust in God.

Works are things we do to glorify anf thank God for what He did.

Grace was first, God made the move.
Faith is second, we put our trust in Him.
Works are third, they come about as a result of our faith.

JimiTime · 06-12-2007 4:58pm

Soul Winner wrote: »

Firstly hello Noel

Nice to hear someone speaking from the heart. There's too much encyclopaedic commentary-ish type response in forums like these. Ok where to start??? Right...

Hhhmmmm. I don't know about that. I feel that it is diametrically apposed to what Paul wrote in his letters. For instance he exhorts the Saints at Galatia to not be drawn into works of the law because as he says if you are under one jot of the law you are indebted to do the whole law. The whole letter is filled with it. I do agree that good works are the natural out growth of sustained faith in God's Word but I don't believe that God takes us on them as the premise for salvation. There is only one premise upon which we stand and that is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. His blood poured out to pay the penalty for all mankind's sin. Paul said if justification could come by works of the law then Christ died in vain.

That's exactly my point. We can't keep His commandments. Can you say in your heart of hearts that you have kept all the commandments your whole life up till now? And not just kept them but actually have not even thought a bad thought in your heart or mind? Jesus also said: You heard it said unto you that you shall not kill, but behold I say unto you that if you hate in your heart then you are as guilty as a murderer" or You've heard it said unto you, that you shall not commit adultery, but behold I say unto you that if you lust in your heart then you are as guilty as an adulterer" The judgments that Jesus is dishing out in your quotes can only be to those who appear at the White Throne judgment as described in Revelation where everyone is damned because they come on the basis of their works. But there is another Judgement seat (The Judgment seat of Christ) where Christ dishes out the rewards to the saints saved in every generation through out history; there is no condemnation at this throne because He took that condemnation on Himself for those who are in Him by faith.

The word Grace in the Greek written phonetically is "Charis" which means unmerited favour. That means that it cannot be earned. Therefore any Grace that we have is purely and act of love from God toward us that has no basis in anything that we can do. When grace is merited it ceases to be grace. The reward is reckoned of debt. This is the word used by Paul over and over again in his letters to the saints in the New Testament. They did more great works than we do today and they were saved by this same Grace, so their salvation was not based on their works, great and all that they may have been.

Yes I agree with that, although the total abandoning of oneself does not necessarily have to come straight away. When starting out in faith you need to take it one step at a time. After experiencing God's faithfulness to His word enough times in your life the natural faith growth will lead to a real abandoning of oneself to total giving over of oneself to God which is the true meaning of sainthood. If you study the great men of God throughout history you'll see that in many case that they came to this solid faith in the latter stages of their lives. And God says of them in Hebrews 11 that he was not ashamed to be called their God.

Let me define faith as I understand it. Faith (or Pistis the noun in the Greek or the verb which is Pisteo) is an action word. An action based upon belief and sustained by confidence in the object of the action. By that definition everyone has Faith because everyone acts upon beliefs and sustains those actions every day. It is not restricted to Religious connotations. You act in Faith when you simply walk. You assume your feet will stay on the ground because experience has thought you that gravity (invisible though it may be) will keep them there and you act accordingly. It’s something you don't even think about most of the time. But what’s the difference between this kind of faith action and saving Faith which is Faith in God? Well Faith in God’s Word is acting on a promise made by God in His Word and continuing that action until that which was promised becomes a fact. And that fact could materialise on this side of eternity or on the other side but the important thing to remember is that you are acting on His promise(s).

An example of this could be when someone is very sick. The promise in God's Word that someone who is sick could claim is: "I am the Lord that heals you". But how would someone go about actually claiming that promise? Well God's Word also tells us that "we are not to descend in the debts and bring Him up or to ascend into the heavens and bring Him down. The word is already near you, speak it forth for with the heart man believes and with the mouth proclamation is made unto salvation." Is there a limit on what promises we can claim? No, it also says that “all the promise of God in Him are yes and Amen” in other words you can claim all of the promises in God’s Word based on this verse of scripture. This means a sick person can have salvation by simply believing in his heart that God promises to heal him and then actually speak the promise with his mouth unto God who is faithful to his promises. Does the sick person need anyone else to hear this? Not at all, only God. You don’t need to shout it from the roof tops (although you could if you wanted to) but as Jesus says you can go into your closet and speak to God in private. This act of faith the scripture says puts you in Christ and Christ in you (to use legal terminology). In other words God does not see you as you anymore whether you get healed or not. Once you act in Faith in a promise of God you are seen as though you are Christ. “How?” You may say. “I don't deserve to be seen as though I am Christ.” You're right but Christ paid the price for God to be able to do this. When Christ bore the sins of the world God looked at Him in a way He did not deserve so that once this act of sacrifice was completed He could then turn to us on a new premise which is Faith in God’s promises as apposed to the old premise which was the way of the Law by which standard all have sinned and are hopeless.

Sorry if I sound preachy but this makes more sense to me than needing to have works added. I think our works of the law do more to pollute because they are not generated by the spirit in us by faith. But I am all for good works generated by the indwelt spirit but even these should not be offered to God as basis for salvation. It would be an insult to God and His Son and His sacrifice for us to do so.

Really enjoyed that post. Thanks.

kelly1 · 06-12-2007 5:02pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

The Bible is quite clear that justification is by God's grace alone.

Agreed.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

However in having said that, works come as a result of our faith, but our salvation isn't predicated upon it.

I would say that good works *should* come as a result of our faith but whether we do God works depends on our will to do those works (for the love of God).

BrianCalgary wrote: »

In the same way when I came to know Christ my desire was and still is to serve Him. The works that I do are in response to love I have for Christ and a thank you for what He did for me.

I agree but having said that if we don't love our neighbour, we suffer the fate (everlasting fire) taught by Christ in Mt 25:41. So I still assert that works are necessary to be saved and only through good works/keeping the commandments will we retain the grace that saves us.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Works are the result of justification

Do you believe that good works necessarily follow faith and justification? Doesn't this contradict free will?

God bless,
Noel.

BrianCalgary · 06-12-2007 5:17pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Do you believe that good works necessarily follow faith and justification? Doesn't this contradict free will?

God bless,
Noel.

First to define good works: any work that benefits others.

So anyone can do good works.

On free will. The two verses below talk about predestination. When I read these I see that God has a life planned out for me. If I choose to accept His gift of grace and follow Him, I get th elife He has designed for me.

Which is what I want and is actually much better than I could have imagined. As I have discussed in another post.

I now don't want free will, I want to be in God's will.

I hope that makes sense? The free will to accept Christ and then operating under His will.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

PDN · 06-12-2007 5:46pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Do you believe that good works necessarily follow faith and justification? Doesn't this contradict free will?

God bless,
Noel.

No more than does the fact of a butterfly invariably flying instead of crawling everywhere after it emerges from the chrysalis. Or indeed a child walking, instead of crawling, as it grows older. Or a patient's heart rhythm improving after a pacemaker is implanted.

kelly1 · 06-12-2007 6:23pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

On free will. The two verses below talk about predestination.

I don't accept predistination. Yes God knows the future but we all have free will. And of course God has a plan for all of us but that doesn't mean we will follow His plan. Are sinners created and predestined for Hell? I don't think so!

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I now don't want free will, I want to be in God's will. I hope that makes sense? The free will to accept Christ and then operating under His will.

I'm with you 100% there! "Not my will but thine be done". I often pray that God will bend my will to conform with His. Lord, take away my liberty to sin!

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

I believe this predestination really means that it is God's plan for us. But what's to stop us rejecting God? God respects our free will.

PDN · 06-12-2007 6:56pm

kelly1 wrote: »

I believe this predestination really means that it is God's plan for us. But what's to stop us rejecting God? God respects our free will.

"Ama Deum et fac quod vis" (translates as "Love God and do what you want") - St Augustine

When we are genuinely saved by the grace of God then we love Him. Love gradually but inevitably leads us to desire the right kind of things. Unless, of course, we deliberately choose not to love Him - but let's not go over the whole "once saved always saved" argument again.

kelly1 · 06-12-2007 8:40pm

PDN wrote: »

"Ama Deum et fac quod vis" (translates as "Love God and do what you want") - St Augustine

When we are genuinely saved by the grace of God then we love Him. Love gradually but inevitably leads us to desire the right kind of things. Unless, of course, we deliberately choose not to love Him - but let's not go over the whole "once saved always saved" argument again.

Can grace in the soul be destroyed?

Soul Winner · 07-12-2007 4:16pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Faith is an action of trusting. We put our trust in God.

Works are things we do to glorify anf thank God for what He did.

Grace was first, God made the move.
Faith is second, we put our trust in Him.
Works are third, they come about as a result of our faith.

Absolutely spot on BC...

JimiTime wrote: »

Really enjoyed that post. Thanks.

You're most welcome, glad you enjoyed it

To Kelly1 or Noel

I’ve read over your posts and to avoid replying to each point you make separately I'll just reply to two:

1. On the point you made about predestination, the opening chapter to the book of Ephesians declares that God “Exalexato” (middle voice) in the Greek (typed phonetically here) translated “hath chosen” (KJV) literally means that “God hath chosen us out from among others not chosen (and did this choosing by the spoken Word) and the middle voice meaning that He did it for Himself” all this is included in this one Greek word. And not only that but this choosing act by speaking was done before He laid the foundations of the worlds. That boggles the mind. And if that’s not predestination rather fore ordaining then I don’t know what is.

2. There is a general view that (as it seems to me anyway) comes across a lot in your posts, and that is that you tend to put the horse before the cart when it comes to faith and works. I understand that you value good works and you're right they should be valued as everyone loves good works done to them and I’m sure like doing good works to others. But that is a given. Where the danger lies is when you offer these good works to God as a basis for Him saving you. At least that is what appears to come across in your posts. We are not to offer our works as the basis or even a co-basis with faith for God saving us. As I said before it is an insult to God, as it is like saying that what Christ provided in offering Himself as the vicarious sacrifice for us sinners wasn't good enough, that God also needs some works that we can do as well. To do this is analogous to those in the Old Testament who looked into the Ark of the Covenant, whereby they removed the covering (Caporeth) which was a type of Christ. You remove Christ's covering atonement when you offer your own performance instead of or on a par with His.

Now that you've finished the book of Acts may I suggest that you consider for your next venture, that you read the Apostle Paul's letter to the Galatians? In it you'll read that he (Paul) is at logger heads with those from the James camp in Jerusalem who came to spy on the Galatian saints to see if they were circumcised and thus conformed to the Law of Moses. Paul admonishes the saints there not to be entangled again with the yoke of bondage by being circumcised. If Paul were around today he would do likewise to those set free in Christ by the spirit through faith even if it were not strictly circumcision that was the issue. It could be any sign of compromise based on turning form the way of faith to works of the law. Read Galatians it is all there about this problem Paul had to deal with. "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” And that love is in response to the recognition that it is by God’s Grace that ye are saved. If you are drowning in a the river and you know you are drowning and someone at risk to themselves jumps in a saves you then you do not need to talk yourself into liking that person on the bank. This is what happens when the light truly shines in the life of the believer that God did all this atoning work because of a love He has for you. You can do no other than to respond with love and trust because you know such a One has your best interests at heart.

If genuine faith in God’s promises is there then His promise is that for that faith He will put His spirit in you, which said spirit if maintained long enough will displace your natural sinful (or short falling) nature with His own nature which is God being Himself through you. The natural outgrowth of which will be great works. All you need to worry about is keeping the connection of faith. Good works are the inevitable result of this indwelt spirit and will be produced in time just like the way a tree produces fruit. If it is a genuine apple tree then you do not need to persuade it to produce apples. In time it will, you must let it grow first.

There is only one thing that saves and that is faith or as Brain puts it “trusting action” in the promises of God. What most of the traditional churches get caught up with these days and have done for centuries is most of the time they advocate proving up to other Christians that you are a good Christian. The true Christian walk is an upward one. The relationship is a vertical relationship between the ones having faith and God, it is not a horizontal one between Christians and other Christians.

Please read Galatians and come back and tell us what you think...

kelly1 · 08-12-2007 12:25am

Soul Winner wrote: »

1. On the point you made about predestination, the opening chapter to the book of Ephesians declares that God “Exalexato” (middle voice) in the Greek (typed phonetically here) translated “hath chosen” (KJV) literally means that “God hath chosen us out from among others not chosen (and did this choosing by the spoken Word) and the middle voice meaning that He did it for Himself” all this is included in this one Greek word. And not only that but this choosing act by speaking was done before He laid the foundations of the worlds. That boggles the mind. And if that’s not predestination rather fore ordaining then I don’t know what is.

Sounds convincing. I presume though that God doesn't predestine anyone's damnation!? :eek:

Soul Winner wrote: »

Where the danger lies is when you offer these good works to God as a basis for Him saving you. At least that is what appears to come across in your posts. We are not to offer our works as the basis or even a co-basis with faith for God saving us. As I said before it is an insult to God, as it is like saying that what Christ provided in offering Himself as the vicarious sacrifice for us sinners wasn't good enough, that God also needs some works that we can do as well.

No, I'm not saying this at all! It is Christ sacrifice on the cross and nothing else that saves us. It is by grace that we are saved but we can loose this grace through lack of charity. See Mt 25:41 again. You can't just ignore that verse! Same goes for James.

Soul Winner wrote: »

"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

I believe this verse supports my position, does it not?!

Soul Winner wrote: »

If genuine faith in God’s promises is there then His promise is that for that faith He will put His spirit in you, which said spirit if maintained long enough will displace your natural sinful (or short falling) nature with His own nature which is God being Himself through you. The natural outgrowth of which will be great works. All you need to worry about is keeping the connection of faith. Good works are the inevitable result of this indwelt spirit and will be produced in time just like the way a tree produces fruit.

It's the inevitablility that I question. It all depends on our will and we do have free will, don't we? We must make a conscious decision to live by the Gospel, to keep the commandments, to grow in virtue.

Matthew 10:22 ...but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

My whole argument is that we are saved by grace but that this grace can only be retained by good works. Lack of good works breaks the commandments which results in the fate seen in Mt 25:41.

Matthew 19:17 ..... But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Doesn't this verse show that faith alone isn't enough? If we are to inherit eternal life, *we* must keep the commandments. Clearly, not keeping the commandments (love they neighbour etc) results in Mt 25:41...

Soul Winner wrote: »

Please read Galatians and come back and tell us what you think...

OK

God bless,
Noel.

Soul Winner · 08-12-2007 2:09pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Sounds convincing. I presume though that God doesn't predestine anyone's damnation!? :eek:

No you're wrong in presuming that. God already created the lake of fire for the Devil and his angels. "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:41 If the lake of fire was already there in Jesus' day then it would put to rest the argument of predestined damnation would it not? Seeing that it was prepared for the devil and his angels. Its right there in the verse you keep quoting.

kelly1 wrote: »

No, I'm not saying this at all! It is Christ sacrifice on the cross and nothing else that saves us. It is by grace that we are saved but we can loose this grace through lack of charity. See Mt 25:41 again. You can't just ignore that verse! Same goes for James.

You are contradicting yourself here. Read highlighted words above. Firstly you say that nothing else saves then you put a BUT in between God's grace and our salvation by saying we need works? Not so. "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" Romans 5:8. WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS Christ died for us. Not buts there. You don't seem to have much confidence in the out-workings of the Holy Spirit in you by faith do you? I guarantee you if the spirit is in you by faith it is absolutely inevitable that good works will be produced including charity and all that great stuff. All I'm saying is that you cannot offer these as a means by which to enter Eternal life. Remember in the verse you quote so often it is the ones on His left side in that verse whom He tells to depart from Him not the ones one the right, read it again. There are two ways to enter life. By the Law and by Faith. Nobody has done it by the Law. It is impossible but they delude themselves into thinking they can and reject Christ’s atoning sacrifice as adequate. I’m telling you it is those who consider themselves righteous under the old covenant (the Law) who think they are keeping it that He is talking to here. They just don't get it that they cannot be righteous by that perfect standard. It is impossible. That is why Jesus came in the first place, to deliver us form the curse of the law being made a curse for us. Galatians 3:13

Here's Mat 25:34-46 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal"

Notice it is righteous ones that are brought into eternal life? But righteous by what standard? Like I said there are 2 covenants in God's Word the Old and the New. The old being the Law by which all have sinned and fall short of and the new covenant being the covenant of faith (which was actually before the law because Abraham and all the heroes throughout the OT were saved by it. Read Hebrews 11 below for the full record.) You are either under one or under the other. If you are under Law then you better have kept it all (every jot of it) your whole life and it is not just the 10 Commandments and ignorance is no excuse either, you must also know it all and keep it. It is every Law in God’s Word from Genesis on. And you can’t even think a wrong thought once in your whole life because to do so is to fall short also. Like I said it is a hopeless situation for us and it cannot bend to help. Only Faith (which we can do) is the way out which Christ provided by offering His Perfect self.

Hebrews 11
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. ut without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. y faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”

kelly1 wrote: »

I believe this verse supports my position, does it not?!

I don’t believe so. I already explained where the love comes from in relation to this. It is generated from His act not ours. To respond in Faith is and act of love from us but His love came first. You cannot have love without trust and vice versa.

kelly1 wrote: »

It's the inevitablility that I question. It all depends on our will and we do have free will, don't we? We must make a conscious decision to live by the Gospel, to keep the commandments, to grow in virtue.

Yes we do have free will but only the free will to choose masters, we don not have the choice of having no master. You are either under the control of Satan and his minions (which is where Ephesians says we were found, dead in trespasses and sins)
“And you who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)” Ephesians 2: 3-5

Or you are under the control of the Holy Spirit which can only come by faith in God’s promises.

kelly1 wrote: »

Matthew 10:22 ...but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

Yes, if we loose faith today the previous years of faith will not stand for us. We must keep the faith right up till the end.

kelly1 wrote: »

My whole argument is that we are saved by grace but that this grace can only be retained by good works. Lack of good works breaks the commandments which results in the fate seen in Mt 25:41.

I absolutely totally disagree with this statement. The only way we can lack in good works is when we loose faith, and it is loosing faith that causes this because we cannot generate our own good works. "There is none good but God" They (good works) must come as a result of the indwelling spirit by faith.

kelly1 wrote: »

Matthew 19:17 ..... But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Yes but like I already explained we cannot keep these without the miracle of the indwelling spirit. You are deceiving yourself if you think you can by mere will, which Paul calls will worship.

“ Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.” Colossians 2:18-23

kelly1 wrote: »

Doesn't this verse show that faith alone isn't enough? If we are to inherit eternal life, *we* must keep the commandments. Clearly, not keeping the commandments (love they neighbour etc) results in Mt 25:41...

I refer you again to the above explanations, please read Galatians and take your cue from The Apostle Paul whom Jesus Himself separated out to show the world the true meaning of the Old Testament Law. It was a school master to bring us unto to Christ, it can only be perfect it cannot bend to help without compromising itself. God had to fulfil it before a jot of it could pass away. He did fulfil in Christ and it has passed away and has no more hold over us. And whom the Son sets free is free indeed.

kelly1 · 09-12-2007 11:50pm

Sorry, I just down have the time to read all of that post.

Can we agree that everyone is saved by grace? Every good comes from grace including faith.

If we can agree on this point, the next question is how can this grace be lost.

Is that a reasonable approach?

God bless,
Noel.

Soul Winner · 10-12-2007 1:31am

kelly1 wrote: »

Sorry, I just down have the time to read all of that post.

Can we agree that everyone is saved by grace? Every good comes from grace including faith.

Agreed. "Oh but for the Grace of God!"

kelly1 wrote: »

If we can agree on this point, the next question is how can this grace be lost.

Is that a reasonable approach?

God bless,
Noel.

That is a reasonable approach I guess. "How can this Grace be lost?" Well that’s like asking "How can God be lost?" He's never lost, we are the lost ones. He came to seek and save that which was lost. It's the same with Grace. Grace is freely available to all, but not everyone grabs hold of it with all of their being and clings onto it no matter what. It's like charging your phone. If you don't plug it in it will not get charged and therefore will not work. The only way you can have Grace is when you (in faith) plug into it. If you stop plugging in then you loose the connection. You cannot plug into Grace by works for by doing so it ceases to be Grace which as earlier explained is "un-earnable" favour from God as a gift. If it could be earned then the reward is reckoned of debt and not as a gift. Grace is a gift attainable through Faith only. This is true New Testament Doctrine.

kelly1 · 10-12-2007 11:25pm

Soul Winner wrote: »

"How can this Grace be lost?" Well that’s like asking "How can God be lost?" He's never lost, we are the lost ones.

Do you mean to say that grace once given can never be lost? This would imply that God forces salvation upon us, wouldn't it. i.e. that we could never reject this grace once received.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Grace is a gift attainable through Faith only. This is true New Testament Doctrine.

Yes, I agree 100% with this. But I am claiming that this grace can be rejected and therefore lost by breaking the commandments.

Soul Winner · 12-12-2007 12:30pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Do you mean to say that grace once given can never be lost? This would imply that God forces salvation upon us, wouldn't it. i.e. that we could never reject this grace once received.

That is not what I said, please re-read what I actually typed. God doesn't force anything on anyone. He did all He had to do in order to provide a way of escape from the impending destruction. All day long He holds out His hands, it’s up to us to grab hold and then once grabbed onto then to hold on with all one's being. If He wants you He'll pull out all the stops to get you but you are going to have to do some turning from your way to His way which is what repentance really means. You’ll will still be a sinner until He sanctifies you wholly over there as Paul says but because of what Christ did on Calvary God does not now see your sinning flesh anymore but rather the performance of His Son because of your faith in Him. If you loose this faith then you loose the Grace. And as already pointed out faith is a trusting action in God's promises. It is not based on how well you keep the commandments. You've already broken those. Paul says; “If I rebuild what I have destroyed doesn’t that make me a lawbreaker?” The standard of the law is complete and utter perfection. If you want to be measured by it then you better make sure you have never once broken one jot of it from cradle to grave. Don't you understand that that is why Christ came into the world? To free us from this yoke of bondage? That is what Christianity is at its fundamental roots. Christ died for the un-Godly. The price was a perfect life, willingly poured out and actually poured out. Only then could the law pass away. We are not under law anymore but under grace wrought through Christ. I’ve quoted this before but it's worth repeating here, "For if righteousness came by the law then Christ is dead in vain."

kelly1 wrote: »

Yes, I agree 100% with this. But I am claiming that this grace can be rejected and therefore lost by breaking the commandments.

Breaking the commandments? I'm sorry that boat has sailed friend, you have already broken them. We need Grace unmerited favour and that is why the Gospel is Good News. God has provided it already in Christ. You might not break the commandments ever again but that is not the basis by which you are saved. If you do break them again you can still have access to grace by faith as this door is never shut. It is freely available to all no matter how bad you are or how bad you think you are. You nullify its affect if you add works as the basis by which you are saved. You insult God as it is like saying that the price of His only Son was not good enough to atone, that you must now add dead works. Be filled with the spirit and God will be Himself through you. That which is born of the spirit cannot sin. I think we’ve discussed this to death don’t you?

kelly1 · 12-12-2007 12:42pm

We are saved by grace indeed but it can be lost by breaking the commandments.

Matthew 19:17 .... But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Yes we have discussed this to death. I should have known better than to get into a debate on faith/works.

God bless,
Noel.

Soul Winner · 12-12-2007 11:26pm

kelly1 wrote: »

We are saved by grace indeed but it can be lost by breaking the commandments.

Matthew 19:17 .... But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

This verse does not say that you can loose grace by breaking the commandments, it just says that you can enter life by keeping them, which is correct you can enter life by keeping them and not just the Ten Commandments but all the commandments in the whole law and the Old Testament. The question is, have you kept them all? God will grant eternal life to anyone who will keep all His commandments perfectly. There's just one tiny snag though. Nobody has done it except Jesus. The only one who deserved the reward laid down His perfect life which was the price in order to save those who cannot keep them from its penalty which is ultimate destruction. Jesus was speaking a truth in this verse, but nobody has kept them, so they are in need of a deliverer. The word “Christ” in the Greek means "Deliverer". He delivered us from the curse of falling short of the law. All He wants now is faith, which is trusting action on His Word and Promises. To try and keep the law after what He did is an insult to Him. Anyway like I said we’ve discussed this to death, the two positions cannot be reconciled which means one of us is wrong.

SubjectSean · 13-12-2007 12:37am

Soul Winner wrote: »

Anyway like I said we’ve discussed this to death, the two positions cannot be reconciled which means one of us is wrong.

Or you both are.

Soul Winner · 13-12-2007 4:54am

SubjectSean wrote: »

Or you both are.

That's possible I suppose. Ok I’m all ears. Please explain how we both might be wrong…

SubjectSean · 13-12-2007 9:14pm

It seems sensible to say that there is no real way of knowing, all of the theology that comes out of Paul is ridiculous, Paul was not Jesus and only ever met him in a vision. All you can know with any certainty is that Jesus said if you want to follow him, then do like him. That involves acting in faith.

Soul Winner · 14-12-2007 2:55am

SubjectSean wrote: »

...all of the theology that comes out of Paul is ridiculous, Paul was not Jesus and only ever met him in a vision..

Some credentials for the Apostle Paul formally Saul of Tarsus:

An Apostle (one sent) of Jesus Christ. Separated out from the other Apostles for a specific purpose. To bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God to the Gentiles (or non Jews).

Taught in all the knowledge of the law at the feet of Gamaliel, who was one of the chief Jewish Theologians of his time and was a member of the strictest Jewish sect the Pharisees.

Paul founded more Churches than the other Apostles who were with Jesus in the flesh for 3 years. Among these churches were the Galatians, Corinthians, and the Philippians

It must be noted that it was Jesus who came to Paul, not the other way around. If you obey Jesus then you will listen to the one He has separated out and sent. Unto him was revealed the secrets of God’s Grace which were previously hidden.

“For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ” Eph 3:1-8

Paul wrote two thirds of the New Testament. Without Paul, Christianity would have been aborted. It would be but a tiny off shoot splinter sect off Judaism if Jesus did not call him out and separate him from the other apostles to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. We would not know what we now know about Jesus today if it was not for Paul.

When you serve and suffer as much for Jesus as the Apostle Paul did only then will you have a right to call his theology ridiculous. If you really think that then you think Christianity is ridiculous, because like it or lump it without Paul’s rescuing of the Gospel of Jesus Christ from those who added the Law of Moses to it then we would not even be debating this now.

"Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches." II Cor 11:24-28

When you can say this about your journey in faith then you will have won my respect and my affections, until then my advice is to try and learn to bridal your arbitrary statements regarding Paul’s theology or at least explain why you have them. Give us some background as to why you would say such a thing. But you are entitled to your opinion so "Let us eat, drink, for tomorrow we die"

SubjectSean · 14-12-2007 6:51pm

Soul Winner wrote: »

Some credentials for the Apostle Paul formally Saul of Tarsus:

An Apostle (one sent) of Jesus Christ. Separated out from the other Apostles for a specific purpose. To bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ the Son of God to the Gentiles (or non Jews).

This claim is mostly Pauls claim. You have not told me what critical thinking underpins your descision to accept the claim or why Jesus would not just have chosen one of the people he knew well. If it was you Soul Winner and you were wanting to leave somebody in charge of something who would you pick? Somebody who'd stuck with you through thick and thin, even on the run and sleeping rough, or a total stranger you never even met?

Soul Winner wrote: »

Taught in all the knowledge of the law at the feet of Gamaliel, who was one of the chief Jewish Theologians of his time and was a member of the strictest Jewish sect the Pharisees.

A zealous greek convert according to the Ebionite tradition who wished to marry the daughter of one of the Sanhendrin but was refused her hand and later went apostate to his adopted Jewish faith.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Paul founded more Churches than the other Apostles who were with Jesus in the flesh for 3 years. Among these churches were the Galatians, Corinthians, and the Philippians

This alone should be setting your alarm bells ringing. All the apostles who'd been with Jesus were markedly NOT setting up Churches in Jesus name. Here is somebody who'd never even met Jesus and he IS setting up Churches in Jesus name. This strongly makes me suspect that Jesus never told anybody to set up Churches in his name.

Soul Winner wrote: »

It must be noted that it was Jesus who came to Paul, not the other way around. If you obey Jesus then you will listen to the one He has separated out and sent. Unto him was revealed the secrets of God’s Grace which were previously hidden.

Again you have only Pauls word for this. If I tell you Jesus came to me you will not believe me and rightly so. Yet I have never orchestrated murders for the 'sin' of blasphemy in the manner of Paul. I do not understand why you would believe Paul but not me. I see no evidence that Jesus endorsed Paul or even that the other Apostles were anything other than lukewarm about him. I think Paul and the people who were run out of Jerusalem to Antioch made their break with the teachings of Jesus at this stage.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Paul wrote two thirds of the New Testament. Without Paul, Christianity would have been aborted. It would be but a tiny off shoot splinter sect off Judaism if Jesus did not call him out and separate him from the other apostles to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. We would not know what we now know about Jesus today if it was not for Paul.

You don't know what the movement Jesus started would have turned into without Pauls interference and neither do I but at least you recognise that Christianity is largely due to Paul and his efforts. It seems fairly certain that without his contibutions the non-Pauline strands of the movement would have been responsible for it's direction and outcome. As you say 'We would not know what we now know about Jesus today if it was not for Paul' and indeed this is true but Paul did not know Jesus.

Soul Winner wrote: »

"Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. II Cor 11:24-28

And yet strangely Paul was Jewish. Why would Jews be punishing a Jew for his message while over in Jerusalem, the followers of Jesus, who have what you claim is the same message as Paul, are not being punished? Something seems wrong here.

BrianCalgary · 14-12-2007 10:53pm

SubjectSean wrote: »

This claim is mostly Pauls claim. You have not told me what critical thinking underpins your descision to accept the claim or why Jesus would not just have chosen one of the people he knew well. If it was you Soul Winner and you were wanting to leave somebody in charge of something who would you pick? Somebody who'd stuck with you through thick and thin, even on the run and sleeping rough, or a total stranger you never even met?.

Somone who I knew would be best for the job.
Jesus knows all of us. He knows all of us better than we know uorselves. Jesus knew Paul and Jesus also knew what Paul would be able to do. If he had such a zealous personality wouldn't it be put to better use in church planting rather than Christian persecuting?

Jesus took His greatest enemy, and convinced him of who He was and the message of salvation. Thereby turning around Paul's life completely. What a witness!!!!

SubjectSean wrote: »

A zealous greek convert according to the Ebionite tradition who wished to marry the daughter of one of the Sanhendrin but was refused her hand and later went apostate to his adopted Jewish faith..

And you got thi sone where? and what relevance is it?

SubjectSean wrote: »

This alone should be setting your alarm bells ringing. All the apostles who'd been with Jesus were markedly NOT setting up Churches in Jesus name. Here is somebody who'd never even met Jesus and he IS setting up Churches in Jesus name. This strongly makes me suspect that Jesus never told anybody to set up Churches in his name..

He did. He instructed His disciples to go and 'baptise all nations, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them all that I have commanded.'

They did in the book of Acts. Spending time in Jerusalem, training up new church leaders. Paul was just the missionary to other parts of the Empire. We all different functions within teh body.

SubjectSean wrote: »

Again you have only Pauls word for this. If I tell you Jesus came to me you will not believe me and rightly so. Yet I have never orchestrated murders for the 'sin' of blasphemy in the manner of Paul. I do not understand why you would believe Paul but not me. I see no evidence that Jesus endorsed Paul or even that the other Apostles were anything other than lukewarm about him. I think Paul and the people who were run out of Jerusalem to Antioch made their break with the teachings of Jesus at this stage..

You can tell that Jesus endorsed Paul by the fruit that he bore during his missionary travels.

Peter was a supporter of Paul see 2 Peter 3:14-16
So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

SubjectSean wrote: »

You don't know what the movement Jesus started would have turned into without Pauls interference and neither do I but at least you recognise that Christianity is largely due to Paul and his efforts. It seems fairly certain that without his contibutions the non-Pauline strands of the movement would have been responsible for it's direction and outcome. As you say 'We would not know what we now know about Jesus today if it was not for Paul' and indeed this is true but Paul did not know Jesus..

Let's see: Pauls life shows the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Peter endorses all of Paul's writings. Paul had a miraculous conversion.

How can you make such a statement that Paul did not know Jesus?

SubjectSean wrote: »

And yet strangely Paul was Jewish. Why would Jews be punishing a Jew for his message while over in Jerusalem, the followers of Jesus, who have what you claim is the same message as Paul, are not being punished? Something seems wrong here.

What is so strange about Paul being Jewish?

Acts 13
42As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. 43When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

many Jews were thrilled to have Paul around.

45When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and talked abusively against what Paul was saying.

Some where jealous of Paul's popularity, a vanity thing.

50But the Jews incited the God-fearing women of high standing and the leading men of the city. They stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region.

The leaders expelled Paul and Barnabas, because they felt their leadership threatened.

52And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

The result was that the Holy Spirit filled the disciples with joy.

Throughout Acts we see the working together of Paul with the Apostles in spreading the gospel throughout the Mediterannean world. The ones who got ticked where religious leaders of all sorts who felt their power threatened by the messangers of Christ.

JimiTime · 15-12-2007 12:06am

SUBJECTSEAN, lets say for arguements sake you are correct. That Paul never had the road to damascus event etc. Lets say he just made it up etc. What parts of Pauls teachings do you think contend with Jesus' and why do you think it does?

Justification!

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