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7 days or 7 billion years?

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Comments

  • #92
    darjeeling
    Registered Users Posts: 962 ✭✭✭darjeeling


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Earthhorse: Evolutionary biology doesn't say that humans descended from apes, rather that humans and apes have a common ancestor like the fossil that was discovered in Germany recently. This common ancestor changed in two different directions (of course more, but I'm referring in simple terms to humans and apes), one into the apes that we commonly know as primates, and one into homosapiens and so on through very very minor genetic changes over a long period of time. This is what I have grasped anyway. Changes which are to the detriment of the species cause it to die out, leaving only the species with the beneficial changes to survive and adapt to it's environment (This is referred to as natural selection). The argument is that only after millions of years did humans and apes become so different from eachother.

    Further evolution in human species has according to current theory given us our regional differences, as people have adapted to their different environments.

    Someone feel free to correct if I'm wrong.

    You're wrong! ;)

    Celebrity German fossil primate 'Ida' died way before the common ancestor of humans and other apes. She was alive almost 50 million years ago (although she's probably now back on Twitter), and the Johnny-come-lately apes didn't show up for another 20 million or so. Humans and chimps only split 5-7 million years ago.

    Lemurs, tarsiers, monkeys (old & new world), apes - which include us - are all primates. Yes, bishops are primates too.

    And that 'detriment of the species' talk is as near as it gets to heresy in evolution.

    The rest, you have grasped correctly. Opposable thumbs be praised!

    Here endeth the lesson.

    .


  • #93
    Twin-go
    Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭Twin-go


    [/quote]Funny how it wasn't until I opened my mind to consider it until I found it for real :). After a little more than two years being committed to Christianity I have to say that it certainly isn't the easy path or the easy way out.[/quote]

    In my view I feel that I am open mind in so far as, if I was shown concrete proof of the exsistance of God I would acept it. The majority Christians will believe in God even if they are shown proof to the contry.

    This is the only life we have so we'd better make the most of it. We did not have any consciousness before conception nor will there be an afterlife. Carpe Diem.

    Christianity as we know it today steams from Medevil ideoligy and is outdated. As more and more people learn to think for themselves less and less will turn to religion.

    The most stable countries to live in with the least amount of social disorder are countries where Atheists are in the Majority.

    What was it that opened your mind and give you such a strong commitment to Christianity?


  • #94
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    Ye gads.
    Big words.
    Scary.
    /runs.


  • #95
    mobius42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭mobius42


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I never intended it as "proof", but rather as a point of debate. I can't possibly fathom why on earth the world would exist the way it does if there was no purpose behind it. This is the stumbling block as to why I cannot be an atheist, and not only why I cannot be, but why I don't want to be an atheist. I find the idea that a world would exist without significance to be absolutely absurd.
    Okay, so you can't imagine how the world has no purpose, fair enough. However, this is no way strengthens or lends credence to your argument. Saying you can't imagine something is not proof of anything beyond your closed-mindedness.


    Jakkass wrote: »
    As for evidence, as someone who believes in divine revelation I personally do believe that we have a purpose in living our lives out in respect to God, and in respect to other people and to leave a positive mark on this world before we leave. I also have an idea of why the world is a challenging place to live in amongst other things.
    You say "as or evidence" and then go on to talk about divine revelation. I find it terrifying that you think this is evidence of anything.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Atheism doesn't offer a worldview at all.
    Nor does it claim to. It's about reality, not painting a pretty picture of the world. Atheism is not a philosophy, it is merely a lack of belief in a deity due to lack of evidence.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't believe that meaning is something which is contrived by humans. The pure reason I don't accept that the earth doesn't have meaning is because I have an iniquisitive mind, or a philosophical mind you could say. I believe in a concept of truth, and falsity, and I don't believe this is contrived by humans. I'm in search of the truth what is behind this all.
    Basically, you are saying that inquisitiveness is proof of the meaning of life. This is so logically incoherent that I had to re-read it several times to make sure that I wasn't misinterpreting you. Also, your entire philosopy seems to be based on faith. If it really is about finding out truth, why do you have absolutely no evidence to back up your claims? I think the real reason people refuse to accept the fact that life might not have a grand meaning is fear. They are afraid that no-one is in charge and that everything they do is meaningless.

    Jakkass wrote: »
    I will say this. Life is about understanding the world you live in. It's about developing a relationship with God,
    There is a huge chasm between those two sentences. You say it is about developing a relationship with God. Why? Which God? What is God? How does believing in God further understanding of anything?


  • #96
    Earthhorse
    Registered Users Posts: 14,715 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    dr.bollocko wrote: »
    Ye gads.
    Big words.
    Scary.
    /runs.

    Too much fibre in your diet.


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  • #97
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Twin-go wrote: »
    In my view I feel that I am open mind in so far as, if I was shown concrete proof of the exsistance of God I would acept it. The majority Christians will believe in God even if they are shown proof to the contry.

    You say that the majority of Christians will believe in God even if they are shown proof to the contrary. How do you know this given that there is currently no proof?
    Twin-go wrote: »
    This is the only life we have so we'd better make the most of it. We did not have any consciousness before conception nor will there be an afterlife. Carpe Diem.

    I don't agree that it is our only life, but what I will say is that we should strive to make it as best for everyone as possible. I don't agree with you on consciousness, or afterlife because you have no means of assessment apart from a hunch. However, why don't you think that people who have faith are making the best of their lives?

    This is one thing that comes up a lot. I think by having faith in God I am making the most of my life.
    Twin-go wrote: »
    Christianity as we know it today steams from Medevil ideoligy and is outdated. As more and more people learn to think for themselves less and less will turn to religion.

    I think for myself, and in this independent thought process I decided to follow God. By the by, Christianity as we know it today is based on Judaism just as it was in the first century :)
    Twin-go wrote: »
    The most stable countries to live in with the least amount of social disorder are countries where Atheists are in the Majority.

    Nonsense. Anyone who says this is picking and choosing. Why does nobody consider China or North Korea in these assessments they make? Interesting bias no?
    Twin-go wrote: »
    What was it that opened your mind and give you such a strong commitment to Christianity?

    Curiosity. I guess that was the primary of many factors.


  • #98
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Nonsense. Anyone who says this is picking and choosing. Why does nobody consider China or North Korea in these assessments they make? Interesting bias no?

    Because those people are not necessarily atheists. Instead they have to say they are because they'll be executed if they don't. Slight difference. Those countries are an example of the problems with totalitarian states that brutalise their people, not atheism


  • #99
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    mobius42 wrote: »
    Okay, so you can't imagine how the world has no purpose, fair enough. However, this is no way strengthens or lends credence to your argument. Saying you can't imagine something is not proof of anything beyond your closed-mindedness.

    I never said that it did give credence. It's just absolutely absurd to suggest that something exists, not only just something, but a place where we as humanity invest so much of our time and effort in, to end up with it being "meaningless".

    I don't consider it closed minded to use a bit of common sense and reason.
    mobius42 wrote: »
    You say "as or evidence" and then go on to talk about divine revelation. I find it terrifying that you think this is evidence of anything.

    I consider divine revelation to be a record of communication between God and prophets. It's not "evidence" that is the concern however. The debate surrounds indication. What indicates to you that God exists, or what indicates to you that God does not. As for someone who cannot see how God can be indicated for, or what suggests that God exists, I would reccommend that you read some apologetics.
    mobius42 wrote: »
    Nor does it claim to. It's about reality, not painting a pretty picture of the world. Atheism is not a philosophy, it is merely a lack of belief in a deity due to lack of evidence.

    Atheism has nothing to do with reality, it's a mere denial. Whether or not such a denial is accurate in reality is a totally different question.
    mobius42 wrote: »
    Basically, you are saying that inquisitiveness is proof of the meaning of life. This is so logically incoherent that I had to re-read it several times to make sure that I wasn't misinterpreting you. Also, your entire philosopy seems to be based on faith. If it really is about finding out truth, why do you have absolutely no evidence to back up your claims? I think the real reason people refuse to accept the fact that life might not have a grand meaning is fear. They are afraid that no-one is in charge and that everything they do is meaningless.

    No, I'm not. I'm merely saying that there is only so far atheism can go in satisfying someones intellectual curiosity.

    As for my entire philosophy being based on faith, no it isn't really. I believe there are genuine reasons besides for faith why believing in God is reasonable. Faith and reason go hand in hand in terms of a Christian outlook. Likewise, reason is absolutely useless on its own, it must go hand in hand with empiricism or what one can gain through experience.

    Christians reason the Biblical scriptures because it is considered to be a chronology of peoples experiences. However, it is important also to have indication external to the Biblical text.
    mobius42 wrote: »
    There is a huge chasm between those two sentences. You say it is about developing a relationship with God. Why? Which God? What is God? How does believing in God further understanding of anything?

    Which God? - The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob seems to be the most reasonable to me.

    Why? - Why believe in God? Investigate what Christians actually argue. I've listed quite a few authors so far on this thread that give pretty clear reasons why one should believe in God.

    What is God? - This is where divine revelation kicks in. God revealed Himself to prophets and reveals Himself to us on a daily basis in our daily lives as Christians.

    How does believing in God further understanding? - Well belief in God requires people to assess issues beyond a face value approach. Isolating what we can know to what we can only see at face value is a rather limiting worldview.


  • #100
    bleg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    humanji wrote: »
    If you can prove that it's 100% fact then there are a whole load of evolutionary biologists who would like you to explain it to them.



    whilst the theory of evolution by natural selection is a theory, it is a fact that evolution happens.

    just because the theory of gravity was a theory doesn't mean gravity didn't exist.


  • #101
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,109 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Those countries are an example of the problems with totalitarian states that brutalise their people, not atheism

    And they do it in the name of atheism, whether they admit it or not.


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  • #102
    mobius42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭mobius42


    Jakkass wrote: »
    You say that the majority of Christians will believe in God even if they are shown proof to the contrary. How do you know this given that there is currently no proof?
    You cannot prove a negative. For argument's sake, say that I tell you that all the atoms in the Universe are held together by unicorns. How would you prove me wrong? You might say that you've examined atoms and can find no unicorns. I can just say that you're not looking hard enough. If you say that you have searched every atom in the Universe, I can say that they are invisible and so on ad infinitum. There's no evidence disproving elves, unicorns or Santa Claus, but you don't believe in any of them because of that, do you? For another explanation of this argument, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russel%27s_teapot
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't agree that it is our only life, but what I will say is that we should strive to make it as best for everyone as possible. I don't agree with you on consciousness, or afterlife because you have no means of assessment apart from a hunch. However, why don't you think that people who have faith are making the best of their lives?
    This is one aspect of Christianity that has always puzzled me. If you believe that after you die that you are going to go to an eternal paradise, then why bother with this life? Shouldn't you pray for death as quickly as possible so that you can get to paradise as quickly as possible?
    Twin-go wrote: »
    The most stable countries to live in with the least amount of social disorder are countries where Atheists are in the Majority.
    I don't think there is any country where atheists are in the majority. Also, atheism may be a product of stable societies not the other way around. In less stable societies, education is poorer and people are generally living with a lot more fear. Both of these factors encourage religious belief.


  • #103
    uprising
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭uprising


    Evolution has'nt been proven and is not fact, its theory, theory is an idea, if it were fact then WHY have they built the large hydron collider under the ground in switzerland, their still trying to find "THE GOD PARTICLE" the most important and mystifying part of the whole evolution THEORY, its the bit that actually is the source of life, an energy particle that isnt understood by anybody.
    I 100% believe in God, that he put us here for a purpose, like a test, I remember in school when the teacher left the room, some of us would start throwing things at each other, searching his draw, stealing from it, as we'd hear him come back down the corridor we'd all sit back down as innocent as pie.
    My point being, if God was ever present we wouldnt have free will, we wouldnt be killing each other and all the other sh1t we get up to, one day the teacher suddenly said "I'll be only 5 mins and left the room, he walked up the corridor as heavy footed as ever, then snook back through the gym and tiptoed to the door, peeping through the crack he saw what we were up to, and who was up to it and who wasnt, he then tiptoed away, through the gym and came back heavy footed down the corridor, all the innocent's jumped back into their seats, he came in as normal, sat down and asked what had gone on while he was away, we said "nothing Sir", he then called 6 of us up and told us what he'd done, we tried to deny it, but we were caught, he wanted to find out who was naughty and nice, just like God.
    I'm not a religious person, i dispise the catholic faith and most religions, it has been used by the powers that be to divide and conquer.
    When i began to keep tropical fish I thought you fill the tank with water , get it to the right temperature and throw in the fish, not so, i had to build an eco system in the tank and sacrifice the first fish to get the whole system going, so the first fish i bought were hardy types, they basically died from their own sh1t till the system settled down, reminded me of the dinosour, it was needed to establish our ecosystem, then eliminated to make way for the prize fish, humans.
    Evolution hasnt established the missing link, and is a never ending list of probabilities and coincidence, that cant be proven, to say that all life and the complexity of it and all its wonders came from gas is absolute rubbish, that i repeat hasnt and cant be proven, people simply believe it because they are told so without looking deeper into it. Seek and you will find, or just stay an ignorant idiot that believes what they are told.
    I have my own reasons to believe in God that I wont be going into here.


  • #104
    bleg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    the higgs boson i.e. god particle, has got nothing to do with evolution


  • #105
    Spear
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 25,034 CMod ✭✭✭✭Spear


    uprising wrote: »
    Evolution has'nt been proven and is not fact, its theory, theory is an idea

    No matter how many times that lie is repeated it won't be any less of a lie.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory


  • #106
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    And they do it in the name of atheism, whether they admit it or not.

    They are atheists but that doesn't mean it's done in the name of atheism. They do it in the name of nationalism. They replace love of god with love of state and violently force people to stay in line. That does not say anything about whether a state where most people are voluntarily atheists would be good or not. All it says is that violent oppression is a bad thing


  • #107
    Mena
    Registered Users Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    uprising wrote: »
    Evolution has'nt been proven and is not fact, its theory, theory is an idea,

    You're mistaking colloquial use of "theory" for it's real meaning.
    uprising wrote: »
    if it were fact then WHY have they built the large hydron collider under the ground in switzerland, their still trying to find "THE GOD PARTICLE" the most important and mystifying part of the whole evolution THEORY,

    May I suggest you actually go read up what evolution is about because based on this statement, you don't have the first clue.


  • #108
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    mobius42 wrote: »
    This is one aspect of Christianity that has always puzzled me. If you believe that after you die that you are going to go to an eternal paradise, then why bother with this life? Shouldn't you pray for death as quickly as possible so that you can get to paradise as quickly as possible?

    I should pray to stay alive for as long as possible IMO. Although the prospect of heaven is a tempting one, I want to stay alive so I can sow the seeds for other people to engage in a meaningful relationship with God. I also don't believe that one should believe because of heaven, and I think that is a selfish reason to believe in God. Believing in God for me is nothing more than recognising what is real and being thankful for it.


  • #109
    Twin-go
    Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭Twin-go


    Jakkass wrote: »
    You say that the majority of Christians will believe in God even if they are shown proof to the contrary. How do you know this given that there is currently no proof?.

    They claim to have Faith.

    Faith: "belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof" Encarta Dictionary.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't agree that it is our only life, but what I will say is that we should strive to make it as best for everyone as possible. I don't agree with you on consciousness, or afterlife because you have no means of assessment apart from a hunch. However, why don't you think that people who have faith are making the best of their lives?

    Is faith not a hunch?

    My believe is based on Fact. When one Dies there is no brain activity. But I am open to be proven wrong, if somebody can show me evidence of the afterlife.

    I feel they are not making the most of their lives because they have limited themselves to their believe in the existence of a God. they devote their live to this God and make decisions through out their live base on their God. Religion removes a measure of free will to an extent.





    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think for myself, and in this independent thought process I decided to follow God. By the by, Christianity as we know it today is based on Judaism just as it was in the first century :)

    But once you decided to follow God all future decisions you make will be influenced by your God.
    Christianity as we know did stem from Judaism I agree but, the church as we know it today is not Christs church. It is far different.


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Nonsense. Anyone who says this is picking and choosing. Why does nobody consider China or North Korea in these assessments they make? Interesting bias no?.

    China is not an Atheist country. Their society is controlled by Communionists who limit peoples involvement in religion and their free will to a certian extent in many other aspects of live. Many people in China would practice religions such as Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism if they had a different form of government. I don't know enough about North Korea to comment.

    Sweeden for example has a high standard of living low crime rates and has an Atheist majority
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Curiosity.

    It was my curiosity that has got me to move away from the church I was raised in. I started asking questions that religion could not answer. To be fare they where questions sience could not answer either but at least with sience I feel I am getting closer to the answers all the time.


  • #110
    uprising
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭uprising


    Spear wrote: »
    No matter how many times that lie is repeated it won't be any less of a lie.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory


    Theories are intended to be an accurate, predictive description of the natural world. However, it is sometimes not clear whether the conclusions derived from the theory inform us about the nature of the world, or the nature of the theory.

    Since when is predictive description a fact?, read what you just quoted, and show me the facts.


  • #111
    cherryghost
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 17,130 Mod ✭✭✭✭cherryghost


    Smart Bug wrote: »
    It's 200 years since Darwin's birth & 150 since the publication of 'On the Origin of Species'.

    So, how far have we come? Have we evolved or are we still superstitious idiots, hmm?

    What's your view on life on earth & how it got here...

    lol fail thread is fail


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  • #112
    TheInquisitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭TheInquisitor


    Earthhorse wrote: »
    If we're descended from apes then how come we don't build our houses in trees? Can someone please just answer that question for me?

    I don't know if he's being serious or not :( . (I hope not)


  • #113
    uprising
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭uprising


    bleg wrote: »
    the higgs boson i.e. god particle, has got nothing to do with evolution


    The higgs boson is the source of life, how can the source of life have nothing to do with evolution, after all evolution is a theory of how life got here.


  • #114
    TheInquisitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭TheInquisitor


    Earthhorse wrote: »
    And another thing; if man came out of the ocean billions of years ago...how come apes don't live in the water?

    Lol you answer your own question here. And we did not leave the water as apes , man , we left it as lets say crocodile or turtle or beaver like creatures that could go on land and water and eventually evolved to live just on land.


  • #115
    piby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 539 ✭✭✭piby


    Science is my God and evolution is my religion!


  • #116
    Spear
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 25,034 CMod ✭✭✭✭Spear


    uprising wrote: »
    Theories are intended to be an accurate, predictive description of the natural world. However, it is sometimes not clear whether the conclusions derived from the theory inform us about the nature of the world, or the nature of the theory.

    Since when is predictive description a fact?, read what you just quoted, and show me the facts.

    The first line was a giveaway.

    "In the sciences generally, a scientific theory (the same as an empirical theory) is constructed from elementary theorems that consist in empirical data about observable phenomena."


  • #117
    DTrotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 232 ✭✭DTrotter


    uprising wrote: »
    The higgs boson is the source of life, how can the source of life have nothing to do with evolution, after all evolution is a theory of how life got here.

    Evolution explains the diversity of life not how it started. Are you not contradicting your posts above?
    Also, doesn't the latest form of creationism (ID) do away with Adam & Eve and original sin (such a disgusting idea to begin with).


  • #118
    pts
    Registered Users Posts: 576 ✭✭✭pts


    uprising, if you seriously want to understand evolution I highly recomend this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vss1VKN2rf8


    When you make arguments like the ones you've just made you make yourself look silly as you are showing your ignorance in the subject matter.


  • #119
    uprising
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭uprising


    Spear wrote: »
    The first line was a giveaway.

    "In the sciences generally, a scientific theory (the same as an empirical theory) is constructed from elementary theorems that consist in empirical data about observable phenomena."

    Enough mumbo jumbo, where are the facts that evolution is fact.


  • #120
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    uprising wrote: »
    The higgs boson is the source of life, how can the source of life have nothing to do with evolution, after all evolution is a theory of how life got here.

    The higgs boson is not the source of life

    And evolution is the theory of how life developed from simple to complex. It doesn't cover how life came from non life


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  • #121
    DTrotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 232 ✭✭DTrotter


    uprising wrote: »
    Enough mumbo jumbo, where are the facts that evolution is fact.

    Genetics, don't humans and chimps share over 90% DNA, so were humans designed from chimps?


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