Overly general question.

Archeron · 18-05-2006 10:07pm #1

a person of a particular faith, ie Christianity,;deeply believes that their way of life, their moral code is right as dictated by teachings of their faith, begins to think that the entire basis of this faith is incorrect. The moral values are right, but the reasons are wrong. There is much confusion as to the many faiths, influences, thoughts and beliefs that are out there. How does a person clear their mind enough to see the correct choice? Would there be advice you would offer to one who has, faithwise, lost their way entirely and is seeking some enlightenment?

maitri · 19-05-2006 4:40pm

Hi, Archeron!

I am no expert, but here's a suggestion:

If you feel the "Moral Values are right" - then you should, I think, stick with them and cultivate them as best as you can.

And if " the reasons are wrong" - then search for other and better reasons, and at the same time for your reasons.

You wrote:

"How does a person clear their mind enough to see the correct choice? Would there be advice you would offer to one who has, faithwise, lost their way entirely and is seeking some enlightenment?"

I'm sure that you are already on the way to the correct coice for you. Trust yourself and trust your heart.

Since you ask in a buddhist forum, then maybe you want a buddhist answer:

The Buddha said:

"It is in this way that we must train ourselves: by liberation of the self through love. We will develop love, we will practice it, we will make it both a way and a basis, take our stand upon it, store it up, and thoroughly set it going."

(From Samyutta Nikaya)

This is the best that I can come up with... (And remember that love includes love for yourself.

)

If you want to read more about the buddhist views on life and ethics there are many good threads and links on this forum, I think, and a lot of people who can probably give much better anwers than I can...

I hope some others will answer your question, too. Since I am really no expert on buddhism or life...

Good luck!

M.

PS: And always feel free to ask if you have questions.

MeditationMom · 20-05-2006 4:18am

Hi Everyone,

I have been enjoying your exchanges very much- so much so, that I signed on inspite of my computer phobia
This is my third piece of writing as I am still figuring all this out. Somehow it didn't let me reply on this forum before-
This "overly general question" is a very good one and I'd like to add my 5 cents worth-

When in doubt - about any moral, religious, state, written or unwritten law - try kindness. Putting yourself into the other's shoes and imagine how you would like to be treated. If no "other" is involved be kind to yourself, your in-your-mind-imagined-self and the self that is your body. In other words do not abuse yourself mentally- with blame, guilt, regret, pessimism, hate, etc, or physically - with food, drugs, sex etc.

All easier said than done, especially when you are young. Just to be kind may all seem to be too boring or difficult, as it was in my case. "Kindness" as a religion or belief system also is tricky, since it can build up tremendous resentment towards the people who don't treat you kindly in return. Naturally it is a lot easier to be kind and loving towards the kind and loving, rather than the ones that rub you the wrong way. Practicing kindness is a good practice, though. Ultimately your actions need to not be moral or immoral, kind or unkind, according to any religion or philosophy, but need to become "right action". Right action, in my experience, is a byproduct of meditation, centeredness, kindness, where impulsiveness or intention, turns into a kind of easy, compassionate spontaneity ( how do you spellcheck on this page?)

When I was young, with five little kids under foot, on my spiritual search for truth, I did throw out the baby with the bathwater and went against most of the rules, which I would have followed only out of social fears or karma fears. In hindsight I can tell you the "rules" are ancient and wise and can save you and others a lot of pain. Yet you may only learn that by breaking them.

As far as my kids are concerned- when they were little, I could not agree 100% with any religion or religious organization,( neither can I today, but I love Buddha's and Jesus's teachings, as well as so,so many others, like Ramana Maharshi's, Papji's and Osho's. Ultimately all the same.) Our religiousness and spirituality ended up being just this simple thing called kindness. It seems to have served them far better than my religious upbringing. They were able to skip all that rebellious stuff without being goodie goodies.

If you can believe in the Oneness of all, even if you have never experienced it, maybe just suspected it by studying quantum physics even, kindness would be logical. Whenever I think or talk about right action, I am reminded of the movie "Slingblade". Which brings up the question/koan: "Can right action ever result in killing someone?"

Asiaprod · 20-05-2006 6:02am

Archeron wrote:

There is much confusion as to the many faiths, influences, thoughts and beliefs that are out there. How does a person clear their mind enough to see the correct choice? Would there be advice you would offer to one who has, faithwise, lost their way entirely and is seeking some enlightenment?

maitri wrote:

If you feel the "Moral Values are right" - then you should, I think, stick with them and cultivate them as best as you can.

And if " the reasons are wrong" - then search for other and better reasons, and at the same time for your reasons.

Nice thoughts maitri, I totally agree with them.

MeditationMom wrote:

Practicing kindness is a good practice, though. Ultimately your actions need to not be moral or immoral, kind or unkind, according to any religion or philosophy, but need to become "right action". Right action, in my experience, is a byproduct of meditation, centeredness, kindness, where impulsiveness or intention, turns into a kind of easy, compassionate spontaneity ( how do you spellcheck on this page?)

When I was young, with five little kids under foot, on my spiritual search for truth, I did throw out the baby with the bathwater and went against most of the rules, which I would have followed only out of social fears or karma fears. In hindsight I can tell you the "rules" are ancient and wise and can save you and others a lot of pain. Yet you may only learn that by breaking them.

Welcome to the gang MeditationMom, always great to see a new face. Very nice opinion, kindness is all important. Also very much agree with the reference 'ancient and wise and can save you and others a lot of pain'. Thats been my experience too.

Re; Original question 'How does a person clear their mind enough to see the correct choice? Would there be advice you would offer to one who has, faithwise, lost their way entirely and is seeking some enlightenment?'

I must assume that you posted here as you have an interest in the Buddhist approach.

The best way for me to answer this is to recount my own story. I was a catholic in the 60s. I believed in church's line on life and morals. I was a regular church goer, even spent many years as an alter boy. As I got older and ventured into the world I became aware of the fact that the faith to which I belonged was more like a rule book listing all the things I could/could not do. Everything seemed to be compulsory, there was very little free choice, and even less acceptance of those that deviated. I began to feel like I was on a tread mill that was taking me in a set direction, and one in which I had serious doubts. I especially did not accept the position of condemning anyone who was not of my faith. The more I thought about these issues the more I believed that people following this belief were mostly only doing so out of social obligations. It was a catholic country, the church had way to much influence when it cam to laws and what was/was not socially acceptable and people just went along with it so as not t be different. For example, how many masses did I serve at where the whole back of the church was full of men just waiting for the pubs to open? Every one of them. We could collect bucket fulls of cigarette buts all around the front door. About this time, the Hari Krishna became a common sight in Grafton street and many people, myself included, started to take an interest in things Buddhist. The more I mixed with these people, the less influence Catholicism had on me, and the more open my mind became to other ideas on life and morals. It was only when I moved to Japan that I really started to take a serious interest in Buddhism. The main reason was that there was no longer any stigma or church influence in my life and I was really free to pursue my hunt for knowledge. I have now been a practicing Buddhist for more than 20 years now. I can safely say that I am so content that I can never see myself switching belief systems agin.

I guess what I am trying to say here is that society, or rather the environment that surrounds that society, is the major obstacle to overcome. Since you live in a predominantly christian country, I would recommend that you start to change the environment you operate in. Do not be intimidated by the thoughts of Hell and punishment, they are just scare tactics that have proven to be very effective over the last 2,000 in controlling people. Go to some of the Buddhist centers so you can mix with people who have a different view point. Get yourself into their environment. Talk to some of the monks. Ask questions in this forum. PM people here, there are a lot of wise people here. Try to spend a little time meditating. Zag has a good link in his signature to meditation methods.
In ending, let us know how you get on, and the best of luck in your search. It is a worthy one for sure.

MeditationMom · 20-05-2006 6:06pm

Asiaprod, thank you for welcoming me so nicely to the forum. Maitri, yes I did like your message too, very much so, sorry I forgot to mention that. And Archeron, thank you for the question.Yes, let your demons take you to a sangha. You will find no conflict with Jesus's teachings there.

maitri · 21-05-2006 3:06pm

Cool that you overcame yor computer phobia, MeditationMom!

Have a nice Sunday, all of you!

Hugs,

maitri

Archeron · 22-05-2006 11:50am

Wow. Thanks to you all for those replies. All of this advice will be most useful for me. I look forward to partaking in this forum!!

Asiaprod · 22-05-2006 1:39pm

Archeron wrote:

I look forward to partaking in this forum!!

Welcome on board (i.e):D

You know what they say: keep your friends close, but your demons even closer.

Talliesin · 23-05-2006 11:56am

OP, Are you looking for an especially Buddhist response, or shall I move this to Spirituality, which is intended to cater for threads not focussed on any particular faith?

Archeron · 23-05-2006 12:38pm

Talliesin wrote:

OP, Are you looking for an especially Buddhist response, or shall I move this to Spirituality, which is intended to cater for threads not focussed on any particular faith?

Hi Talliesin, It was indeed a buddhist opinion i was hoping to hear. If you think this belongs elsewhere, please feel free to move it, but I am very happy with the ideas shared here.

hairyheretic · 23-05-2006 1:37pm

Archeron wrote:

Would there be advice you would offer to one who has, faithwise, lost their way entirely and is seeking some enlightenment?

I would say talk to people of various beliefs, and see if you can find something which does feel right to you.

Talliesin · 25-05-2006 10:49am

Archeron wrote:

Hi Talliesin, It was indeed a buddhist opinion i was hoping to hear. If you think this belongs elsewhere, please feel free to move it, but I am very happy with the ideas shared here.

Nope, grand, just checking you were happy with it.

zag · 25-05-2006 2:19pm

Hi MeditationMom. Welcome to the forum. It's great isn't it?:)

MeditationMom · 25-05-2006 8:29pm

Yes it is! I was lying in the dentist's chair this morning listening to the wind rustling the leaves of a bamboo tree outside the window and suddenly a wave of love for all of you washed over me.

zag · 26-05-2006 8:23am

I'm feeling it!

Overly general question.

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