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Connor Murray - Kidney's new TOL?

  • 27-02-2012 2:00pm
    #1
    Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭


    Murray is probably the most undeserving player in the starting 15. He is completely overrated and should be well behind Reddan, Marshall and even Boss. Can anyone point out one performance for Ireland where he has justified his continued inclusion? For me he is the most hyped player in Ireland and should have been dropped long ago. I am beginning to question whether even his potential has been overstated. This guy should not be near an international team.

    Do you agree/disagree?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,499 ✭✭✭Sabre0001


    How can a guy with 8 caps be dropped long ago?

    🤪



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭Gracelessly Tom


    Higher wrote: »
    Murray is probably the most undeserving player in the starting 15. He is completely overrated and should be well behind Reddan, Marshall and even Boss. Can anyone point out one performance for Ireland where he has justified his continued inclusion? For me he is the most hyped player in Ireland and should have been dropped long ago. I am beginning to question whether even his potential has been overstated. This guy should not be near an international team.

    Do you agree/disagree?

    Really? He's only in the team for about 6 months!! :rolleyes:


  • Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    Sabre0001 wrote: »
    How can a guy with 8 caps be dropped long ago?

    He should have been dropped 7 caps ago.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Lapsed Catholic


    Higher wrote: »
    Heaslip is probably the most undeserving player in the starting 15. He is completely overrated and should be well behind O'Brien, Leamy and even Kidney himself. Can anyone point out one performance for Ireland where he has justified his continued inclusion? For me he is the most hyped player in Ireland and should have been dropped long ago. I am beginning to question whether even his potential has been overstated. This guy should not be near an international team.

    Do you agree/disagree?

    Fixed that for you ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭TOMP


    He was poor on Saturday. Very slow at distributing the ball.

    However, he is on the team because he has potential so give him the chance to redeem himself


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    I think Kidney took a gamble on him being another Mike Philips and launched him into the starting line up based on that alone.

    Problem is he didnt turn out as expected and thanks to Kidney he's now in the very odd position of trying to develop to the point where he can be an international SH while being thrown out game after game to give performances he's not capable of giving.

    I think he has huge potential but Kidney has given him no opportunity to work his way into the squad. He was gifted the starting spot that he didnt have to work for and people are starting to realise he shouldnt be there. So he cant develop because he has nothing to work towards, he needs to be dropped and allowed work his way up like everyone else.

    I have no issue with a young guy getting some caps to develop them but he wasnt developed he was sent straight to the front of the queue and expected to deliver which was a ridiculous decision for an international coach to make. Meanwhile Reddan gets dumped to the bench and Boss left to Wolfhounds leaving Marshall out entirely. All because Kidney took a gamble and lumbered himself with another SH that shouldnt be in the position they are in and without the balls to drop him.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Not starting Reddan during the world cup was an utterly terrible decision.

    There is more justification for starting Murray now because he is young and the world cup is over, but I personally am not convinced he is up to the standard required and have been saying that all season after watching his poor play for Munster, which has been continuously overlooked. O'Leary has been quicker than him.

    He has to be dropped. Reddan and Sexton are our best combination by a long long way and every time they play we play well and win.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    TOMP wrote: »
    He was poor on Saturday. Very slow at distributing the ball.

    However, he is on the team because he has potential so give him the chance to redeem himself

    having potential and being up to 6n's standard are two very different things.


  • Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    MungBean wrote: »
    I think Kidney took a gamble on him being another Mike Philips and launched him into the starting line up based on that alone.

    Problem is he didnt turn out as expected and thanks to Kidney he's now in the very odd position of trying to develop to the point where he can be an international SH while being thrown out game after game to give performances he's not capable of giving.

    I think he has huge potential but Kidney has given him no opportunity to work his way into the squad. He was gifted the starting spot that he didnt have to work for and people are starting to realise he shouldnt be there.

    I have no issue with a young guy getting some caps to develop them but he wasnt developed he was sent straight to the front of the queue and expected to deliver which was a ridiculous decision for an international coach to make. Meanwhile Reddan gets dumped to the bench and Boss left to Wolfhounds leaving Marshall out entirely. All because Kidney took a gamble and lumbered himself with another SH that shouldnt be in the position they are in and without the balls to drop him.

    Its quite weird how Kidney works. Healy and O'Brien have entire seasons of being completely brilliant and only get into the team when Kidney's hand is forced through injuries yet Murray has 2-3 decent ML games and hes suddenly starting 9 for the World Cup.

    Anyway, Murray didnt deserve to be there in the first place, doesnt deserve to be there now and yet is still starting. Why does Kidney find it so hard to drop players like Murray and O'Callaghan? They clearly dont deserve to be there so why are they still starting?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Personally I think he has potential. I also think he was poor on saturday and should be dropped in favour of a player who helped improve the team performance immeasurably. Murray is one for the future just not the present


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,873 ✭✭✭Skid


    TOMP wrote: »
    He was poor on Saturday. Very slow at distributing the ball.

    However, he is on the team because he has potential so give him the chance to redeem himself

    The full Ireland team is not the place to be learning your game.

    When he was turned his potential into consistently good performances he should be considered again. Until then, Reddan is a much better player.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Well hopefully for his sake DK drafts in a few more promising young players who don't instantly adapt to the international game so people can have a pop at them instead.

    And yes having said that that Reddan our best available SH at the moment and should be our starting scrum half.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Lapsed Catholic


    I agree with you re Kidney.. I know Murray and can be accused of being somewhat one eyed. Going back to his selection and the RWC. Muarray was rung by Kidney and told that he was not going to NZ, too soon, too young etc etc. Ireland v France O'Leary has a nightmare and implodes. Murray on the plane, Kidney taking all the plaudits for promoting such a young player, Gaffney called it a brave decision. Hogwash. Kidney will drop Murray when he can deflect any blame from himself. Murray has huge potential and is the futer for Ireland at 9, maybe he needs to develop his game, maybe Kidney needs to stop with the negative stayle and let players express themselves.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    The more games he starts with Keatley, the better for him I think. Keatley is more like Sexton and plays close to the gainline, so that's where his development should lie if you accept that Sexton is likely to be our starting out half for the foreseable future.

    Playing with O'Gara has made him slow because quick ball on the gainline isn't O'Gara's game.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,361 ✭✭✭✭DDC1990


    TBH, Murray is doing grand. His delivery is a similer speed to Reddans, its his decision making that I would question. However that all comes with match practice and maturity.

    Redden's influence on the game on Saturday is being slightly overstated IMO. As many others have mentioned, the combination of Italy giving up, inclusion of POM and Ryan, combined with Reddan's superior decision making, made Reddan stand out.

    Murray needs to be helped along by teamates as well however. At one stage Ireland had huge numbers left, and only Rob Kearney right. Kearney was screaming for the ball so loudly, that I could hear him in the top tier! Murray passed it to him, Kearney was isolated and we lost momentum. Murray needs to understand that HE's the decision maker, and he doesn't always have to pass to the guy screaming for the ball.

    Murray's physicality is immense, and really brings something in defence that Ireland havn't had at SH for years. He is raw, and does need work, but you can't have it both ways. Kidney gets criticized for not playing young players, now he's criticized for persisting with a young player, to get him experience!


  • Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    Kidney must hate Reddan. Murray goes from not even being on the plane to being starting scrum half. Although it could be possible that the IRFU have to play a certain number of Munster players by the IRFU. It could be very costly if Munster fans began to lose interest in the international game.


  • Site Banned Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭Higher


    DDC1990 wrote: »
    TBH, Murray is doing grand. His delivery is a similer speed to Reddans, its his decision making that I would question. However that all comes with match practice and maturity.

    Redden's influence on the game on Saturday is being slightly overstated IMO. As many others have mentioned, the combination of Italy giving up, inclusion of POM and Ryan, combined with Reddan's superior decision making, made Reddan stand out.

    Murray needs to be helped along by teamates as well however. At one stage Ireland had huge numbers left, and only Rob Kearney right. Kearney was screaming for the ball so loudly, that I could hear him in the top tier! Murray passed it to him, Kearney was isolated and we lost momentum. Murray needs to understand that HE's the decision maker, and he doesn't always have to pass to the guy screaming for the ball.

    Murray's physicality is immense, and really brings something in defence that Ireland havn't had at SH for years. He is raw, and does need work, but you can't have it both ways. Kidney gets criticized for not playing young players, now he's criticized for persisting with a young player, to get him experience!

    Its TOL all over again :rolleyes:

    What good is physicality when you cant score at all because your scrum half is so slow, indecisive and a poor passer that he impedes every backline move. Its not like Reddan has ever been a slouch in defense anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭Seph503


    I think being subbed at the 50min mark was an indication that Kidney knew he wasn't having a good game, rather than waiting until the usual 60-65min mark of swapping the half backs, as opposed to what he suggested in his interview about the forwards providing cleaner ball (and not Reddan) for improving our game.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Higher wrote: »
    Kidney must hate Reddan. Murray goes from not even being on the plane to being starting scrum half. Although it could be possible that the IRFU have to play a certain number of Munster players by the IRFU. It could be very costly if Munster fans began to lose interest in the international game.

    At least the real agenda of this thread is out in the open now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,361 ✭✭✭✭DDC1990


    Higher wrote: »
    Kidney must hate Reddan. Murray goes from not even being on the plane to being starting scrum half. Although it could be possible that the IRFU have to play a certain number of Munster players by the IRFU. It could be very costly if Munster fans began to lose interest in the international game.
    Sh1te, how did you find out! Its all a Munster Conspiricy, in conjunction with the IRFU and the Irish Farmers Journal.

    The IRFU's secret police are on the way to your house right now.

    You have 30 seconds to leave the building. If you stay, the wearing of a tin-foil hat, and chanting "The Bull is a Ligind", 30 times is the only thing that will stop them killing you.

    Good Luck!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    Question for the Leinster lads campaigning for Reddan to start:

    Do you believe that Reddan is the best option to play a physical game away in Paris, despite the fact that Reddan is rarely selected for physical away games at club level?

    Even the infallable Schmidt appears to agree that a more physical SH is needed for such away games. Murray is the best physical SH in the country/squad, and should he not be selected in France in a horses-for-courses affair?

    Personally, I'm not positive who I think should start. Reddan was much better against Italy and deserves the start but, despite Murray's poor showing, his physicality and defense will most likely be needed against the French. He was possibly our best defender against Wales and will likely be needed against the French too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,407 ✭✭✭✭justsomebloke


    Please do not take this thread off topic with Munster V Leinster crap.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭siltirocker


    I'm pretty confident that Keatley and Murray haven't played with each other once yet.

    Shocking (if that is the case) IMO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,522 ✭✭✭nerd69


    he has a lot of potential we have to start playing young players to develop them so we can compete for the next world cup thats why sexton is starting instead of rog and thats why ryan should be starting instead of doc. a lot of the complaints im hearing about murray now i herd about mike phillips when he started out he in now in my opnion one of the top shs in the world.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    I dont think it has anything to do with numbers of players from certain provinces. I think Kidney just wants a big physical SH and he's blind to the fact we dont have one good enough to be starting for Ireland. So rather than start Reddan and work with that he went with Murray hoping he would step up and he's refusing to accept the fact that he was wrong to do that. Similar to TOL, he ignored all criticism until Thomas himself cracked under the strain of being forced to play to a standard he wasnt capable of.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,522 ✭✭✭nerd69


    Higher wrote: »
    Its TOL all over again :rolleyes:

    What good is physicality when you cant score at all because your scrum half is so slow, indecisive and a poor passer that he impedes every backline move. Its not like Reddan has ever been a slouch in defense anyway.

    he is a far better passer than tol he just needs to learn to pass first


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    47294.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,403 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    Question for the Leinster lads campaigning for Reddan to start:

    There's your problem right there. This thread is about Murray, it's not a Leinster/Munster thread. One player is playing poorly, another is playing well when he gets in. It's quite simple, it has nothing whatsoever to do with where the players play their rugby.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    nerd69 wrote: »
    he has a lot of potential we have to start playing young players to develop them so we can compete for the next world cup thats why sexton is starting instead of rog and thats why ryan should be starting instead of doc. a lot of the complaints im hearing about murray now i herd about mike phillips when he started out he in now in my opnion one of the top shs in the world.
    That's just youth for the sake of youth. Murray has had 3 poor games in a row for Ireland and we need to let him go away and work on his obvious flaws.

    The other young guys are playing because they are clearly better than the other options available.

    Murray isn't good enough yet. He should not be playing at this level, especially ahead of Reddan.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    For those assuming previously prepared provincial positions regarding Murray and Reddan, please stop?

    The fact is that Murray has not worked well with Sexton in any match the two have started. Conversely in matches that Sexton started with Reddan, the difference is almost spectacular. Two standouts are the Engalnd match in last year's 6N and the Australia match in the RWC. In fact the England match last year was so different to what had gone before that it shouldn't have been in question as to who should be the starting SH (and yes, I know it was TOL that Kidney favoured then - who incidentally seems to have gained a bit of speed since).

    But that's not what has happened, and yet again we have an immediate improvement when the magic combination has been struck. People talking about forwards upping their game and Italians tiring are missing the point (or listening too much to Kidneyspeak). Currently our best half back pairing is Sexton and Reddan. Murray may well be the future, but he needs to speed up 100% and stay at that speed for 100% of the time before he's ready to take over.

    Start him with Keatley for Munster and he'll gain the experience and tempo he needs. He could well be our best SH ever.


This discussion has been closed.
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