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Worldwide Occupy Movement?

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Comments

  • #182
    davoxx
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    Godge wrote: »
    <snip - off topic nonsense about gardai>
    wow, thanks for the selective data on the irish policing force.
    though you've forgotten the prior history of the irish police force as well as their original complaints board. in fact i could pull many holes in your selective representation of the irish policing force, though this is not the thread for it, so i'm going have to ignore your irrelevant yarn ...

    and don't worry about my education, worry about your own first.
    Godge wrote: »
    Right, you are the one who compared violence perpetrated by Occupy protesters to illegal acts committed by police forces.
    well illegal acts are, well illegal acts and both are illegal acts, you can see the similarity there.
    what i was actually comparing was the occupy movement to police forces.
    Godge wrote: »
    I have illustrated the clear ways in which police officers in Ireland are investigated and penalised for such offences.
    but you did not define 'penalised', everyone has their own definition, singularly with regan's world peace for americans only, which you agree is world peace ...
    Godge wrote: »
    Given that it is you who tried to justify the two as being the same,
    i never justified anything. i'm sure of that. i said that one rotten apple does not a barrel of cider make. i do not support acts of violence.

    please stop making false claims of what i said, if you can not interpret or paraphrase correctly what i say/do/imply/reference or basically type, please stop.


  • #183
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    davoxx wrote: »
    wow, thanks for the selective data on the irish policing force.
    though you've forgotten the prior history of the irish police force as well as their original complaints board. in fact i could pull many holes in your selective representation of the irish policing force, though this is not the thread for it, so i'm going have to ignore your irrelevant yarn ...

    and don't worry about my education, worry about your own first.


    well illegal acts are, well illegal acts and both are illegal acts, you can see the similarity there.
    what i was actually comparing was the occupy movement to police forces.


    but you did not define 'penalised', everyone has their own definition, singularly with regan's world peace for americans only, which you agree is world peace ...


    i never justified anything. i'm sure of that. i said that one rotten apple does not a barrel of cider make. i do not support acts of violence.

    please stop making false claims of what i said, if you can not interpret or paraphrase correctly what i say/do/imply/reference or basically type, please stop.

    Ok, you were comparing the occupy movement to police forces, we were agreeing on that.

    I then asked you what mechanisms the occupy movement had to deal with its own miscreants, in the same way that the Irish police force (and others around the world), deal with theirs.

    you then attempt in this post to somehow limit your comparison. Well, I am sorry, logical argument doesn't work like that. If you want to put it another way, I will say it like this.

    (1) All movements and organisations, whether they are the Occupy movement or the gardai, have persons (bad apples) within them that commit illegal acts
    (2) Unlike the gardai who condemn such behaviour by their members and have procedures in place to discipline, remove and bring the full force of the law against their members, the occupy movement's defenders refuse to even condemn such actions and behaviour, some of them coming on here to defend and excuse it.

    You made the point (1) that the two are the same, unfortunately, you will not accept (2) that they are different, but while (1) could apply to any organisation, the differences exposed by (2) are what make organisations and movements credible.

    I am not interpreting or paraphrasing what you say, I am just exposing the logical inconsistencies, implications and contradictions of your post. To put it another different way, you are saying that rotten apples and fresh oranges are the same because they are round and nothing else matters, end of story, don't want to hear anything else. I am saying, yes, they are similar because they are round but there is more to it than that, they are different because one tastes a lot better than the other. You then say that I am interpreting you because I point out the differences between rotten apples and fresh oranges.


  • #184
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    I have to agree with Godge here. I pointed out that the Occupy Portland group carried out senseless destruction to local businesses and vehicles.

    What does that have to do with police officers breaking the law?


  • #185
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Godge wrote:
    And when police officers break the law, other police officers enforce the law against them. They are subject to the courts and they are removed from the gardai.

    LOL
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Code_of_Silence

    I'm sorry but I have family connections in the Garda Ombudsman and if you think the Gardai are happy to shop their colleagues, think again.
    Do you remember the recent case in which several Gardai were illegally and seriously assaulting a member of the public, while another back at base deliberately diverted a CCTV camera in order to get rid of the evidence?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1108/1224307207563.html

    This is not intending to bash all police officers, but seriously if you're going to claim that they have a moral high ground to the occupy protesters you're seriously deluded.

    The behavior of the police across the United States in response to the Occupy movement has been an absolutely monumental disgrace of epic proportions, and the fact that none of the officers who have been filmed brutalizing unarmed protesters will likely end up in front of a judge is something which should terrify anyone in the United States who desires to live in a democratic society.
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    I have to agree with Godge here. I pointed out that the Occupy Portland group carried out senseless destruction to local businesses and vehicles.

    What does that have to do with police officers breaking the law?

    It's an analogy. Some police officers are pr*cks, but that's no excuse to hate the entire concept of the police force. Likewise, some Occupiers are pr*cks, but that's no excuse to bash the entire movement as a whole.

    Did you honestly not get the point he was making?


  • #186
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Maxton Sour Misogynist wrote: »
    I know we are going through very tough times but I do see a light at the end of the tunnel, there will be economic recovery (when exactly is the $1 million question).

    So do the majority of the Occupy protesters/supporters see a light at the end of the tunnel?

    In terms of the economy? Yes.
    But for me at least, this isn't about the economy itself. It's about the government corporate axis which robs us, the ordinary people, of our right to self government.
    And that will continue whether the economy booms or busts. I'm sure for some, Occupy is an ecomonic protest purely about economics. For me it's about the fact that we don't live in a democracy, we live in a world of weighted voting, where who you know and how much you can bribe them with determines the weighting of your voice.

    That is what I want to see changing.

    With regard to light at the end of the tunnel, I believe we genuinely have entered a phase in which humanity is waking up and starting to seriously rebel against that structure. Occupy is an example. Anonymous is an example. Wikileaks is an example. The Spanish protests are an example. The Arab Spring is a prime example - who would have thought so many regimes would fall in such quick succession?

    Sure, I agree we don't know where it will go, but I am excited and delighted (Gay Byrne <3) to be living in an age where, finally, we might actually see the general population in control of their own countries as opposed to a social elite who up until now have run it for themselves, with any benefit or harm to the rest of us being merely an irrelevant side effect in their eyes.


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  • #187
    davoxx
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    I have to agree with Godge here. I pointed out that the Occupy Portland group carried out senseless destruction to local businesses and vehicles.

    What does that have to do with police officers breaking the law?
    well, since you are adamant to ignore the relevance of my post, i'll flip it ...

    what does some random people committing crimes have to do with occupy movement?


  • #188
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    LOL
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Code_of_Silence

    I'm sorry but I have family connections in the Garda Ombudsman and if you think the Gardai are happy to shop their colleagues, think again.
    Do you remember the recent case in which several Gardai were illegally and seriously assaulting a member of the public, while another back at base deliberately diverted a CCTV camera in order to get rid of the evidence?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1108/1224307207563.html

    This is not intending to bash all police officers, but seriously if you're going to claim that they have a moral high ground to the occupy protesters you're seriously deluded.

    The behavior of the police across the United States in response to the Occupy movement has been an absolutely monumental disgrace of epic proportions, and the fact that none of the officers who have been filmed brutalizing unarmed protesters will likely end up in front of a judge is something which should terrify anyone in the United States who desires to live in a democratic society.

    I provided links to the Garda Ombudsman's Report and to reliable newspaper reports of cases which showed that there are processes for dealing with misbehaviour within the Gardai. You provided a link to an Irish Times report where the Garda Ombudsman had got convictions which only supports my assertion that gardai have a process for dealing with such incidents.

    You provided a link to Wikipedia and mentioned family connections. Great.

    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    It's an analogy. Some police officers are pr*cks, but that's no excuse to hate the entire concept of the police force. Likewise, some Occupiers are pr*cks, but that's no excuse to bash the entire movement as a whole.

    Did you honestly not get the point he was making?


    Its an analogy. The gardai and Occupiers both have miscreants within their ranks but while gardai get disciplined, fired and convicted with the organisation assisting in this, nobody from Occupy will even condemn the violent behaviour of their members.

    Did you honestly not get the point I was making?


  • #189
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Godge wrote: »
    I provided links to the Garda Ombudsman's Report and to reliable newspaper reports of cases which showed that there are processes for dealing with misbehaviour within the Gardai. You provided a link to an Irish Times report where the Garda Ombudsman had got convictions which only supports my assertion that gardai have a process for dealing with such incidents.

    You provided a link to Wikipedia and mentioned family connections. Great.

    Ok, I'll get you some decent newspaper articles about this later on when I have more time. Look at the incidents caught on camera in the States, the "internal investigations" which followed and have so far failed to discipline a single abusive officer in any of the Occupy protests.

    BTW, I also linked an article which cited a case where a gardai back at base obstructed justice by interfering with a CCTV camera which should have recorded footage of other gardai beating the sh*t out of a member of the public. And yet you suggest that the police will root out abusive members in their ranks? Do you want more examples?
    Its an analogy. The gardai and Occupiers both have miscreants within their ranks but while gardai get disciplined, fired and convicted with the organisation assisting in this, nobody from Occupy will even condemn the violent behaviour of their members.

    Did you honestly not get the point I was making?

    Occupiers will get convicted too if they are arrested and brought to court. That still doesn't answer the fact that police generally do not condemn the behavior of fellow police officers. Again, see the growing list of brutality incidents in the US and the resounding silence from the police AND government officials over it.


  • #190
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    BTW, I also linked an article which cited a case where a gardai back at base obstructed justice by interfering with a CCTV camera which should have recorded footage of other gardai beating the sh*t out of a member of the public. And yet you suggest that the police will root out abusive members in their ranks? Do you want more examples?


    .


    But the garda only attempted to obstruct justice, he didn't succeed - they were all convicted, including him. That means some other garda must have caught him at it and shopped him!!!!! Only makes my point that while there are some rotten apples, they get caught and dealt with.

    Still waiting for the condemnation of Occupy violence.


  • #191
    davoxx
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    Godge wrote: »
    Ok, you were comparing the occupy movement to police forces, we were agreeing on that.
    i was.
    Godge wrote: »
    I then asked you what mechanisms the occupy movement had to deal with its own miscreants, in the same way that the Irish police force (and others around the world), deal with theirs.
    good question, not really relevant, the relevant question is why were you not screaming that the police force must be closed down, and that it serves not good, based on the actions of a few individuals claiming to be acting on behalf of the police force.

    you went of on a tangent by looking for an excuse then applying it backwards to make a reason.

    Godge wrote: »
    you then attempt in this post to somehow limit your comparison. Well, I am sorry, logical argument doesn't work like that.
    you should be, you've being doing it wrong. remember your selective use of "world peace" ... but you can ignore than again, since it suits you.

    Godge wrote: »
    If you want to put it another way, I will say it like this.
    i really don't, but we'll run with it ...

    Godge wrote: »
    (1) All movements and organisations, whether they are the Occupy movement or the gardai, have persons (bad apples) within them that commit illegal acts
    we can assume that to be possible

    Godge wrote: »
    (2) Unlike the gardai who condemn such behaviour by their members and have procedures in place to discipline, remove and bring the full force of the law against their members, the occupy movement's defenders refuse to even condemn such actions and behaviour, some of them coming on here to defend and excuse it.
    unlike? unlike what? so you are now claiming that the occupy support such behaviour ... i want a link to show that the support such acts of violence, you know unlike the gardai ...
    Godge wrote: »
    You made the point (1) that the two are the same, unfortunately, you will not accept (2) that they are different, but while (1) could apply to any organisation, the differences exposed by (2) are what make organisations and movements credible.
    you tripped yourself up there bub, see my reply to your point two.

    Godge wrote: »
    I am not interpreting or paraphrasing what you say, I am just exposing the logical inconsistencies, implications and contradictions of your post.
    no, you are doing neither, you are incorrectly representing my posts as justifying violence. there is no logical inconsistencies in what i typed, only in what you incorrectly assumed.

    Godge wrote: »
    To put it another different way, you are saying that rotten apples and fresh oranges are the same because they are round and nothing else matters,
    you are right, they are fruit, that's exactly the opposite of what i'm saying :)
    Godge wrote: »
    end of story, don't want to hear anything else.
    i do, but i'm sick of hearing that world peace is only for americans and that this is world peace, with dead babies and clubbed seals and fresh squeezed wholesome patriotic freedom juice made from oranges.

    Godge wrote: »
    I am saying, yes, they are similar because they are round but there is more to it than that, they are different because one tastes a lot better than the other.
    some like cider more than oj too ... and one is citrus and the other is rotten also the orange is orange in colour ...
    Godge wrote: »
    You then say that I am interpreting you because I point out the differences between rotten apples and fresh oranges.
    that apples are apples and oranges are not apples? sounds like you're comparing apples and oranges ...

    maybe if you were comparing apples to apples, you know people to err people, then i'd still have no idea what you are trying to say ...


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  • #192
    davoxx
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    Godge wrote: »
    Its an analogy. The gardai and Occupiers both have miscreants within their ranks but while gardai get disciplined, fired and convicted with the organisation assisting in this, nobody from Occupy will even condemn the violent behaviour of their members.
    google is your friend ...
    http://theoccupationparty.org/statement-on-violence-at-occupy-oakland-move-in-day-march-and-demonstration

    and just to test your 'education' on the gardai ...
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/3780
    whatever happened to that guy?
    Godge wrote: »
    Did you honestly not get the point I was making?
    yeah, you're making up stuff to discredit occupy movement ... we get it.


  • #193
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Do you remember the recent case in which several Gardai were illegally and seriously assaulting a member of the public, while another back at base deliberately diverted a CCTV camera in order to get rid of the evidence?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1108/1224307207563.html


    Weren't the officers prosecuted, convicted and, if memory serves me correctly, imprisoned? Which I think supports Godge's point.


  • #194
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Einhard wrote: »
    Weren't the officers prosecuted, convicted and, if memory serves me correctly, imprisoned? Which I think supports Godge's point.

    Actually it doesn't. The Ombudsman investigated that case and brought the charges. Godge was suggesting that other police officers would rat on their colleagues for breaking the law, whereas in this particular case we have an example of someone who saw his colleagues breaking the law and trying to cover up for them.

    I am merely dismantling Godge's assertion that the cops have some sort of moral high ground. He suggests Occupy closes ranks to defend wrongdoers and police officers don't, I am pointing out that, in fact, police officers do indeed.


  • #195
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I am merely dismantling Godge's assertion that the cops have some sort of moral high ground. He suggests Occupy closes ranks to defend wrongdoers and police officers don't, I am pointing out that, in fact, police officers do indeed.

    This is an odd interpretation on Godge's illustrative responses to the counter arguement.

    Maybe I'm just dim,but I fail to note any seeking of high-ground in the posts,moral or otherwise,all I'm seeing is links to factual reports of Garda Accountability in action....is this not good ????


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #196
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Is 'clutching at straws' an official directive for members of the occupy movement?


  • #197
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    This thread is drifting away from the question of the Occupy Movement's objectives and what people think of them. Snarky one-liners don't help.

    Let's try to stay on topic, please.

    SSR


  • #198
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Actually it doesn't. The Ombudsman investigated that case and brought the charges. Godge was suggesting that other police officers would rat on their colleagues for breaking the law, whereas in this particular case we have an example of someone who saw his colleagues breaking the law and trying to cover up for them.

    I am merely dismantling Godge's assertion that the cops have some sort of moral high ground. He suggests Occupy closes ranks to defend wrongdoers and police officers don't, I am pointing out that, in fact, police officers do indeed.


    Ah, you did miss the point. I was saying that the gardai have procedures in place (and that includes the Garda Ombudsman, you may have missed the links and quotations from the Garda Ombudsman's Report) to deal with miscreants and that demonstrates a certain attitude to miscreants i.e. they are not tolerated or condoned. A further part of the argument was that the Garda Commissioner referred cases directly to the Ombudsman the details of which I also linked to and which you have not been able to refute.

    A similar approach from Occupy would see them reporting their miscreants to the relevant authorities. Some hope of that which demonstrates the difference. How anyone can say that the Gardai with the convictions secured in recent years against their members as well as their co-operation with the Garda Ombudsman can be compared to the Occupy Movement with their tacit tolerance of violence is beyond me. It is not so long ago that we had one of the defenders of Occupy saying in one of the threads that if the Central Bank decided to enforce its legitimate private property rights (remember you defend private property rights, hatrick) that there would be violence and riots.


  • #199
    davoxx
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    Einhard wrote: »
    Weren't the officers prosecuted, convicted and, if memory serves me correctly, imprisoned? Which I think supports Godge's point.
    internally by the same police force? no, well that godge's point null and voided ...


  • #200
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Godge wrote: »
    Ah, you did miss the point. I was saying that the gardai have procedures in place (and that includes the Garda Ombudsman, you may have missed the links and quotations from the Garda Ombudsman's Report) to deal with miscreants and that demonstrates a certain attitude to miscreants i.e. they are not tolerated or condoned. A further part of the argument was that the Garda Commissioner referred cases directly to the Ombudsman the details of which I also linked to and which you have not been able to refute.

    A similar approach from Occupy would see them reporting their miscreants to the relevant authorities. Some hope of that which demonstrates the difference. How anyone can say that the Gardai with the convictions secured in recent years against their members as well as their co-operation with the Garda Ombudsman can be compared to the Occupy Movement with their tacit tolerance of violence is beyond me. It is not so long ago that we had one of the defenders of Occupy saying in one of the threads that if the Central Bank decided to enforce its legitimate private property rights (remember you defend private property rights, hatrick) that there would be violence and riots.

    Considering the numbers of people involved and the provocation by the police Occupy has been a remarkably peaceful movement. You seem to be saying that Occupy should just disband because of some bad behavior by a tiny minority! The movement is very non violent and calls for non violent means this has been demonstrated repeatedly.


  • #201
    Inclusion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭Inclusion


    20Cent wrote: »
    Considering the numbers of people involved and the provocation by the police Occupy has been a remarkably peaceful movement. You seem to be saying that Occupy should just disband because of some bad behavior by a tiny minority! The movement is very non violent and calls for non violent means this has been demonstrated repeatedly.

    Not true. What about the Non-payment of the Household Charge demo at which I was present at City Hall here in Galway when Occupy Galway members stormed into the chamber ? Then stood there chanting like some kind of cult?
    (that was cringeworthy to witness) Granted there was nobody hurt, but it was violent and could have ended in injury. The videos are available and you can clearly see each and every one of those that emerged are ALL Occupy members.
    Because of this myself and others have withdrawn our support for the Household charge campaign as we will not be associated with people who act in this manner with absolutely no regard or respect for anybody, including the other protestors who wished to do so peacefully.
    They may despise politicians but protest through peaceful means is the only way to go.
    Occupy Galway are NOT about peaceful protest.


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  • #202
    davoxx
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    Godge wrote: »
    Ah, you did miss the point. I was saying that the gardai have procedures in place (and that includes the Garda Ombudsman, you may have missed the links and quotations from the Garda Ombudsman's Report) to deal with miscreants and that demonstrates a certain attitude to miscreants i.e. they are not tolerated or condoned.
    no they don't .. the garda ombudsman is not a procedure of the irish police force. it is a method to police the irish police force because the irish police force was unable to do it themselves. it is an external body.
    Godge wrote: »
    A similar approach from Occupy would see them reporting their miscreants to the relevant authorities. Some hope of that which demonstrates the difference. How anyone can say that the Gardai with the convictions secured in recent years against their members as well as their co-operation with the Garda Ombudsman can be compared to the Occupy Movement with their tacit tolerance of violence is beyond me. It is not so long ago that we had one of the defenders of Occupy saying in one of the threads that if the Central Bank decided to enforce its legitimate private property rights (remember you defend private property rights, hatrick) that there would be violence and riots.
    does this only apply to the occupy movement? what about politicians not reporting bribes? or other gardai not arresting gardai? or priests not reporting priests? very convenient to muddle the 'point' ...

    when you get the time, i'd like you to go back to your original goal posts and address post #192

    or even the previous post to that, you know where i destroyed your point two #191 ...

    i know that some people here have the utmost respect for the gardai, and the conveniently forget what happened in donegal in the 90's, but facts are facts, and selectively twisting a valid point will only result in someone else untwisting it ... but can we do that in another thread?

    you guys should have kept to the 'no goal' misinformation/lie ...


  • #203
    davoxx
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    Inclusion wrote: »
    Not true. What about the Non-payment of the Household Charge demo at which I was present at City Hall here in Galway when Occupy Galway members stormed into the chamber ? Then stood there chanting like some kind of cult?
    (that was cringeworthy to witness)
    oh my god they were chanting? without a cross? burn the witches!!!
    Inclusion wrote: »
    Granted there was nobody hurt, but it was violent and could have ended in injury.
    but won't somebody think of the children!! there could have been endangered pandas there, and pandas are very much against chanting, it makes their heads explode!!!
    Inclusion wrote: »
    Because of this myself and others have withdrawn our support for the Household charge campaign
    so now you have converted to a new faith? that's a bit drastic from one bad sermon ... it's not like they were abusing kids ...
    Inclusion wrote: »
    They may despise politicians but protest through peaceful means is the only way to go.
    Occupy Galway are NOT about peaceful protest.
    chanting is not peaceful, i agree. maybe they should stay at home or sit in a pub and say "well things should be different ..."


    we are not discussing a single branch of occupy, but the entire movement here, and despite what the protester bashing garadi supporters here might say, occupy advocating peaceful protesting. if you don't like them, grand, but don't spread misinformation ...


  • #204
    Inclusion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭Inclusion


    davoxx wrote: »
    oh my god they were chanting? without a cross? burn the witches!!!


    but won't somebody think of the children!! there could have been endangered pandas there, and pandas are very much against chanting, it makes their heads explode!!!


    so now you have converted to a new faith? that's a bit drastic from one bad sermon ... it's not like they were abusing kids ...


    chanting is not peaceful, i agree. maybe they should stay at home or sit in a pub and say "well things should be different ..."


    we are not discussing a single branch of occupy, but the entire movement here, and despite what the protester bashing garadi supporters here might say, occupy advocating peaceful protesting. if you don't like them, grand, but don't spread misinformation ...

    Would be helpful if you read the complete post , I was referring to how they stormed the council chambers, the heavy door was forced open, there was pushing and shoving, and somebody could easily have been hurt.

    The chanting was weird to say the least. What on earth was that supposed to achieve?


  • #205
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Inclusion wrote: »
    Would be helpful if you read the complete post , I was referring to how they stormed the council chambers, the heavy door was forced open, there was pushing and shoving, and somebody could easily have been hurt.

    The chanting was weird to say the least. What on earth was that supposed to achieve?

    If chanting is weird to you maybe protest isn't your thing lol.


  • #206
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    davoxx wrote: »
    no they don't .. the garda ombudsman is not a procedure of the irish police force. it is a method to police the irish police force because the irish police force was unable to do it themselves. it is an external body.


    does this only apply to the occupy movement? what about politicians not reporting bribes? or other gardai not arresting gardai? or priests not reporting priests? very convenient to muddle the 'point' ...

    when you get the time, i'd like you to go back to your original goal posts and address post #192

    or even the previous post to that, you know where i destroyed your point two #191 ...

    i know that some people here have the utmost respect for the gardai, and the conveniently forget what happened in donegal in the 90's, but facts are facts, and selectively twisting a valid point will only result in someone else untwisting it ... but can we do that in another thread?

    you guys should have kept to the 'no goal' misinformation/lie ...

    Look, there is little point responding to your posts as most of the time they do not make sense.

    The "no goal" exchange is a clear example where when it is put to you that Occupy have no goals, you respond that they have a goal of world peace, when it is explained to you that everyone from Kim Il Sung to Ronald Reagan claim to have a goal of world peace, you just say that the American version of world peace is peace for Americans unbeknowingly exposing as hollow any movement's claim to have goal of world peace as world peace is only the version of world peace according to whatever movement or person - it is intangible, like saying we are in favour of motherhood and apple pie, great let's talk about something real. You will read back about 20 pages and you will find where I wrote about the intangible nature of the goals being equivalent to saying you are in favour of motherhood and apple pie. We can all say that we support the goal of world peace and better democracy but does anyone know what they mean?

    At least the goal of taking back Ireland's non-existent oil reserves is more tangible than world peace even though the oil reserves don't exist.


  • #207
    davoxx
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    Inclusion wrote: »
    Would be helpful if you read the complete post , I was referring to how they stormed the council chambers, the heavy door was forced open, there was pushing and shoving, and somebody could easily have been hurt.

    The chanting was weird to say the least. What on earth was that supposed to achieve?
    i did, but i thought the chanting was what was the most unsettling for you.

    if pushing and shoving equates to not being peaceful, you've never been to a sale, a concert, an actual protests, a paddy's day parade ...

    i'm sure someone could have been hurt, but it depends on the recklessness and intent off it .. and i think you are over reacting.


  • #208
    davoxx
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    Godge wrote: »
    Look, there is little point responding to your posts as most of the time they do not make sense.
    i agree 100%, your responses make no sense. i point this out each time, but you twist the meaning and go off in a tangent once proven wrong.
    Godge wrote: »
    The "no goal" exchange is a clear example where when it is put to you that Occupy have no goals, you respond that they have a goal of world peace, when it is explained to you that everyone from Kim Il Sung to Ronald Reagan claim to have a goal of world peace, you just say that the American version of world peace is peace for Americans unbeknowingly exposing as hollow any movement's claim to have goal of world peace as world peace is only the version of world peace according to whatever movement or person - it is intangible, like saying we are in favour of motherhood and apple pie, great let's talk about something real. You will read back about 20 pages and you will find where I wrote about the intangible nature of the goals being equivalent to saying you are in favour of motherhood and apple pie. We can all say that we support the goal of world peace and better democracy but does anyone know what they mean?

    At least the goal of taking back Ireland's non-existent oil reserves is more tangible than world peace even though the oil reserves don't exist.
    wow that was a load of nonsense. seriously, it's not even backtracking, it's just an incoherent argument that has already been addressed.

    so when i showed you that occupy had a goal you made up nonsense saying that 1) someone else had the goal, and 2) that it was not a goal in the first place.
    spot the contradiction? either it is a goal or it is not, you can't have it both ways.

    i've dealt with regan's version of world peace, as from his quote, but sure ignore that.
    when did you provide a quote from kim il sung? i suppose he did say "i'd like some peace and quiet" and "what's wrong with the world these days" ... you can jumble them up together to give you that quote you wanted ... you know make up stuff like you like to.

    i know you can't conceive what world peace is, but some of us can, so don't throw your inabilities onto those who can.

    now back to the nonsense point about occupy condoning violence ... oh you've failed to mention that? did google prove you wrong?
    what about me destroying your bad, illogical point two ... oh yeah google did that, yet i don't see your acknowledgment for that ...

    i know you have an agenda here, that's okay, but don't try to spread misinformation and then run away when called on it.

    you've made several bad points, and i've destroyed them. the least you could do is stop posting them or acknowledge that you were wrong.


  • #209
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    If people can't have a civil debate about this issue, there won't be one at all. If you can't make your point without belittling other posters, think twice before posting in this thread again. This is the last warning.

    SSR


  • #210
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    This is an odd interpretation on Godge's illustrative responses to the counter arguement.

    Maybe I'm just dim,but I fail to note any seeking of high-ground in the posts,moral or otherwise,all I'm seeing is links to factual reports of Garda Accountability in action....is this not good ????

    Godge was claiming that other Gardai police themselves, which I am pointing out is not the case, the Ombudsman is independent and only refers things back in cases of very minor incidents.

    In New York, the entire investigation into Anthony Bologna's outrageous behavior was internal, the verdict? "He did nothing wrong" by pepper spraying unarmed, non violent women in the face. Surprise surprise.

    Therefore, Godge's assertion that Occupy won't police itself, but the police force does, is invalid. The police force most certainly does not, in an absolutely vast number of cases.

    EDIT Also Godge when you claim there is "no goal", why are you ignoring the anti financial system, anti bailout agenda of the Occupy movement?
    One of the goals is to get governments to stop forcing innocent bystanders to pay for the mistakes of gamblers.
    You may not agree with that goal, but it is a goal, therefore while you are more than free to claim it has foolish goals, you simply cannot claim it has "no goal". It's just not true, no two ways about it.


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  • #211
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Therefore, Godge's assertion that Occupy won't police itself, but the police force does, is invalid. The police force most certainly does not, in an absolutely vast number of cases.
    The problem with that argument is that it carefully circumvents the actual point being made.

    The actual point being made is that there are structures in place to deal with bad apples in police forces. Those structures function to greater or lesser extents, but in all cases the existence of the structures illustrates that there is at least a commitment to eliminating misbehaviour in police forces.

    The question, then, is: what structures are in place to ensure that anti-social or other destructive behaviours are systematically dealt with within the Occupy movement? If it has such structures, they should be easy to outline. If it doesn't have such structures, then it is tacitly accepting misbehaviour in its ranks just as a police force would if it didn't have the appropriate structures in place.
    One of the goals is to get governments to stop forcing innocent bystanders to pay for the mistakes of gamblers.
    On a superficial level it's a noble goal, but it needs an awful lot of flesh on the bones. For starters, you need to clarify whom you mean by "gamblers", and ideally describe them in less pejorative terms. Then you need to explain in detail how society can restructure itself around not financing national debts through privately-issued bonds. Finally, you need to explain how camping on a public street is going to get governments to do anything of the sort.


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