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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 723 ✭✭✭Black Suir


    Wasnt in Walsh Park today but a friend from KK I was talking to was spitting fire at the setup there. massive queus to get in even though the stand was only half full. missed a good chunk of the first half. apparantly you had to que for tickets aswell outside the ground?
    Also baffled at the poor quality signage. only one little piece of cardboard with the price scribbled on with a marker, barely legible. I know times are tough financially but we are basically a laughing stock now. We really need to get out of Walsh Park and concentrate on upgrading carriganore.


    Agree, The GAA has to get out of Walsh Park, but it could be too late. The chance was tere a few years back but it was not taken. As for Carriganore, does anyone seriously think the GAA will pump the amounts of money into the venue to make it a county ground. The GAA while they have put money into the venue (at least i am sure they have) they wont put whats needed into it because the ground is not owned by the association.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 723 ✭✭✭Black Suir


    KevIRL wrote: »
    tbh, Div 1B next year may not be the worse thing ever. It will probably contain Limerick, Offaly, Wexford, Antrim and Carlow. There are a few competitve games there, and could be good for a young squad too. Also the winners go onto the league semi final so get a chance against the top teams in late spring just before the championship.

    Worst thing about dropping down would be that we'd be going into this years championship on a serious losing run.

    Trying not to be too pessimistic about this year, but its hard. We looked okay today in the first half against a KK team clearly not up for it, but still went in behind at HT. The stories coming out of training are most worrying though, and its hard to feel like Waterford are anything but a beaten docket this year unfortunately


    There is a long way to go yet. While Waterford wont be in any final this year in the league, there is a good chance they wont be relegated. Dublin are my bet to drop down. Also lets not forget come championship time, I know its a different code, but Pat Flanagan who is training Waterford this year, (along with Jimmy Payne), has in the past had times peaking at the right time of the year and hopefully will again in the future.


  • Registered Users Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    Black Suir wrote: »
    Agree, The GAA has to get out of Walsh Park, but it could be too late. The chance was tere a few years back but it was not taken. As for Carriganore, does anyone seriously think the GAA will pump the amounts of money into the venue to make it a county ground. The GAA while they have put money into the venue (at least i am sure they have) they wont put whats needed into it because the ground is not owned by the association.

    A lot of it comes down to the County Board pissing away with having both Fraher Field and Walsh Park as home venues so instead of using the budget over time for a good, accessible & well maintained venue we get this situation


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,243 ✭✭✭deiseach


    Wasnt in Walsh Park today but a friend from KK I was talking to was spitting fire at the setup there. massive queus to get in even though the stand was only half full. missed a good chunk of the first half. apparantly you had to que for tickets aswell outside the ground?
    Also baffled at the poor quality signage. only one little piece of cardboard with the price scribbled on with a marker, barely legible. I know times are tough financially but we are basically a laughing stock now. We really need to get out of Walsh Park and concentrate on upgrading carriganore.
    It was cash at the gate, and the stand was pretty much full. I'm sure you could have squeezed a few more in, but why should those who turn up with plenty of time to spare have to be crammed in to accommodate those who turn up at the last minute? The biggest problem in Walsh Park is the lack of proper terraces. Otherwise it's fine for our purposes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,147 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    We're going to get relegated because...we lost to the all-ireland champions? :confused:

    To be fair, he has to put a positive spin on things when:

    A) Everybody else is on his back about literally everything (I know there are several things that need criticism but people are reading far too much into thing and applying double standards by not weighing all things equal and discounting important counter arguments to the incessesant crticism which is continually being unleashed)

    B) What good would it be if he mirrored the pessism of everybody, nách mór, that posts on this page or talks about the team in pubs and such? How would things ever improved if he started reeling off these phrases like "I don't know where we are going this year" or "We're porbably getting relegated"

    And also, it did sound a bit more positive. I won't argue that Kilkenny probably weren't as up for it as 2 weeks ago, but sounds like we did pretty well first half. Also, few more faces returned today which is good to see, and apparently Shane Walsh and Ringo will be available next week. We're definetly in a better place than 2 weeks ago, albeit we're not in a great situation.

    I might remind those that are on the verge of a breakdown from the stress of being relegated that even if we lose all 5 of our games, if we win the relegation playoff it doesn't matter at all and we'll still have Division 1A hurling next year (which is by no means the be all and end all either).

    I wasn't at the match by the way, so I have nothing specific to say about it.

    We're probably going to get relegated because we were hammered by Cork, hammered by Kilkenny, will be well beaten by Tipp and then Galway and have one game at home against Dublin who we will have a chance of beating. If we lose and face a relegation playoff we are most likely to face a team who has already hammered us this year.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,553 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    The new hurling management team dont seem to give a toss compared to what previous mangement teams did.

    Pity to see Players Like Tony Browne, John Mullane, Brick etc going back to dark days.

    I know im being a bit negative but a team which got to every all ireland semi final since 2006, won 2 munster titles in 2007,2010 and one league title in 2007 are in danger of being relagated and then have a terrible championship this year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,243 ✭✭✭deiseach


    PTH2009 wrote: »
    I know im being a bit negative but a team which got to every all ireland semi final since 2006, won 2 munster titles in 2007,2010 and one league title in 2007 are in danger of being relagated and then have a terrible championship this year.
    You do realise that there are no whipping boys in Division 1A this year? It's all very well talking about our performances in recent time, but Dublin are the defending League champions, our win over Galway last year was the first over them in the League in eight attempts, and the other teams . . . well, they are who they are. People have to be realistic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭daddydick


    PTH2009 wrote: »
    The new hurling management team dont seem to give a toss compared to what previous mangement teams did.

    Pity to see Players Like Tony Browne, John Mullane, Brick etc going back to dark days.

    I know im being a bit negative but a team which got to every all ireland semi final since 2006, won 2 munster titles in 2007,2010 and one league title in 2007 are in danger of being relagated and then have a terrible championship this year.

    I dont think you understand the fact that we are a team in serious transition. Look at the players that played yesterday, Darragh Fives, Philip Mahony, Paraic Mahony, Maurice Shanahan, Gavin O'Brien, Martin O'Neill are all developing into inter-county hurlers. We have an injury list as long as a wet week. Do you realistically think that we would be beating the All-Ireland champions Kilkenny yesterday?

    What a mad suggestion that we are "in danger of having a terrible championship". Sure we are in danger of that every year, as is every other team.

    The lads have their objectives and goals for the year - get out and support the transition they are going through instead of worrying about being relegated.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    daddydick wrote: »
    I dont think you understand the fact that we are a team in serious transition. Look at the players that played yesterday, Darragh Fives, Philip Mahony, Paraic Mahony, Maurice Shanahan, Gavin O'Brien, Martin O'Neill are all developing into inter-county hurlers. We have an injury list as long as a wet week. Do you realistically think that we would be beating the All-Ireland champions Kilkenny yesterday?

    What a mad suggestion that we are "in danger of having a terrible championship". Sure we are in danger of that every year, as is every other team.

    The lads have their objectives and goals for the year - get out and support the transition they are going through instead of worrying about being relegated.

    To add to that, it was Liam Lawlor and Tony Browne's first game of the year, Shane O'Sullivan is just coming back in as well, Maurice has been injured the past few weeks. Shane Walsh and Ringo will be back next week, to be fair that is significant strengthening.

    I don't think we'll be hammered by Tipp, Hardybuck, and I dunno the extent of your prophetic credentials but I have to say it's a bit much to say we'll be hammered by Galway and Dublin as well. Winning against Tipp and Galway would be a massive achievement in any year that we have to travel to their stadiums, so I'm not expecting a win but I think we'll put in a performance against them. Beating Dublin is achievable. They may have run Cork very close yesterday, but they were at home and while they are missing players, they weren't understrength to the extent that we have been. They also have better strength in depth, but once you have your full team available, it doesn't really matter how good no. 21-30 are from the point of view of winning a one off game.


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭lovelypoint


    To those who mentioned issues getting into Walsh Park yesterday, I can only agree that things could have been handled a lot better. I arrived at 2.05 at the Keanes Road end stalls, which had queues going back quite a bit blocking a lot of the roundabout, and overall took 10 minutes to get in. Relief at getting in was shortlived though, with the realisation there was not a programme in sight.

    Perhaps that all 4 styles were open on the Keanes Road end, I suppose you cannot argue there, and to be fair peoples issue with signage was down to being so far back in a queue as to not be able to see it. That only 3 styles were open on the Presentation end was bad, with similar queues there, as well as the shortage of programmes.

    All in all, things could have been handled a lot better in my opinion, especially given this was our only home fixture in Walsh Park this year and a fixture that always attracts a minimum of 3/ 4,000. To be honest, I was surprised throw in was not delayed, and not everyone that was moaning about issues in getting in were the last minute merchants arriving just before throw in.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭lovelypoint


    Overall, disappointing day yesterday in Walsh Park. Really felt this was a game to lay down a marker, and don't have too much time for excuses about injury, given that we have so many promising players around the fringe who are being overlooked.

    Philip Mahony once again started in the corner, while he and other promising wing backs could have gotten a chance yesterday to step up. Tony did well, but feel we would maybe have been better longer term to keep him on the bench for the half, and afford someone else the opportunity to step up. Likewise, when we were well beat, why were we not seeing a few more subs.

    Iggy also doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, and I do worry about the goalkeeping spot this year if the likes of Adrian Power or Stephen O'Keefe are not given the chance to step up.

    What really shone through yesterday, was our disarray amongst the backs, and lack of any quality ball to our forwards. Our backs have developed a very worrying habit of playing themselves into trouble, or worse, handpassing the trouble to someone else. A bit of collective responsibilty is needed amongst our backs, and they need to take the lumps and bring the ball out of defense, rather than use a short handpass to play another colleague into trouble. Overall, they need to stand up and be counted. Time and time again, they invited trouble or let themselves be played into trouble. I really worry about the collective mentality and decision making of our backs, as none of them seem confident of winning or keeping their own ball. I really think there is something rotten at the core of our defense, from the goalkeeper with poor puckouts, short distrubution, and a little timidity in goal right through to our wing backs where much of the problems for our full back line originate.

    The other worrying trend is the dire quality of ball to our forwards. Fair enough we can't win ball in the air very well these days, but why then do we continue to rain high ball after high ball up the field, especially against a team like Kilkenny who are going to swallow up such ball all day long. High ball seems to be all we know, but we simply do not have the ball winning forwards for it at the moment. Have never been so depressed as yesterday seeing Martin O'Neill & Gavin O'Brien have to try outmuscle KK backs for high ball, as that was all the ball they were getting.

    We really need to be playing to the strengths we have, and badly need some cohesion amongst the backs, and also the forwards. Is it really too much to expect a well drilled set of backs, as well as a set of forwards with an incisive gameplan, creativity and of course decent ball with which to be able to do some damage.

    The aimlessness really needs to stop, and everyone needs to take a bit of collective responsibility. If backs are being played into trouble by other backs, then why are they not letting them know about it. If no one is getting quality ball from the keeper, then why is he not being let know about it by the players that are getting this desperate ball. If forwards are not getting any sort of quality ball, then why aren't the backs and midfield being let know about it. If a fellow forward is being wasteful/ selfish, when other forwards are in better positions, then why do they let it continue.

    I think most of all we need a gameplan, an effective style from management (one that plays to our strengths), and promising players being given the chance, not excuses about injuries and depleted squads. After that, we need players to show a bit of leadership, take responsibility, and starting to drag some performances out of the team. If Dublin had our attitude towards injury woes, they'd probably be in 1B at the moment and have gone out in the qualifiers last year. Is it too much to expect a little attitude and expectation from this team, after all we laud the 'traditional' counties for it, time and time again as an integral part of their success.

    Lastly, I think overall, the Brick at CF experiment needed to be tried, but has not worked. Time to shift him back to CB before we drain all confidence from him. Move Brick back, move Moran to midfield, and I think we start to look a lot more solid from midfield back, selection-wise. What to do about the half-forward line, I am really not sure, but something needs to be done, and with the players we have, or it is going to be a very sorry looking season.

    Trying to be optimistic, but aside from Gavin O'Brien, and perhaps Martin O'Neill, I am struggling to see green shoots here. As for being in transition, perhaps we are, but why should we let that dampen expectation, as it certainly hasn't with teams like Clare, who despite being a team in the making, look extremely dangerous. If we are in transition, I do not see us building for the future, I see David O'Sullivan/ Shane Fives/ Stephen Daniels/ Philip Mahony/ Adrian Power/ Stephen O'Keefe/ Tommy Ryan/ Brian O'Sullivan nowhere near the team in the positions they have proven themselves capable.

    We may look a slightly more dangerous outfit with the likes of Mullane, and perhaps Kelly back on the panel, but I really am struggling to see where the improvement is from last year. I'm all for giving Michael Ryan and co. a chance, but think they need to start giving Waterford hurling a chance..


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,553 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    Doubt this is true but is there a need for it

    http://www.anfearrua.com/db.asp?a=topicdisplay&tid=1176451


  • Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭daddydick


    Overall, disappointing day yesterday in Walsh Park. Really felt this was a game to lay down a marker, and don't have too much time for excuses about injury, given that we have so many promising players around the fringe who are being overlooked.

    Philip Mahony once again started in the corner, while he and other promising wing backs could have gotten a chance yesterday to step up. Tony did well, but feel we would maybe have been better longer term to keep him on the bench for the half, and afford someone else the opportunity to step up. Likewise, when we were well beat, why were we not seeing a few more subs.

    Iggy also doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, and I do worry about the goalkeeping spot this year if the likes of Adrian Power or Stephen O'Keefe are not given the chance to step up.

    What really shone through yesterday, was our disarray amongst the backs, and lack of any quality ball to our forwards. Our backs have developed a very worrying habit of playing themselves into trouble, or worse, handpassing the trouble to someone else. A bit of collective responsibilty is needed amongst our backs, and they need to take the lumps and bring the ball out of defense, rather than use a short handpass to play another colleague into trouble. Overall, they need to stand up and be counted. Time and time again, they invited trouble or let themselves be played into trouble. I really worry about the collective mentality and decision making of our backs, as none of them seem confident of winning or keeping their own ball. I really think there is something rotten at the core of our defense, from the goalkeeper with poor puckouts, short distrubution, and a little timidity in goal right through to our wing backs where much of the problems for our full back line originate.

    The other worrying trend is the dire quality of ball to our forwards. Fair enough we can't win ball in the air very well these days, but why then do we continue to rain high ball after high ball up the field, especially against a team like Kilkenny who are going to swallow up such ball all day long. High ball seems to be all we know, but we simply do not have the ball winning forwards for it at the moment. Have never been so depressed as yesterday seeing Martin O'Neill & Gavin O'Brien have to try outmuscle KK backs for high ball, as that was all the ball they were getting.

    We really need to be playing to the strengths we have, and badly need some cohesion amongst the backs, and also the forwards. Is it really too much to expect a well drilled set of backs, as well as a set of forwards with an incisive gameplan, creativity and of course decent ball with which to be able to do some damage.

    The aimlessness really needs to stop, and everyone needs to take a bit of collective responsibility. If backs are being played into trouble by other backs, then why are they not letting them know about it. If no one is getting quality ball from the keeper, then why is he not being let know about it by the players that are getting this desperate ball. If forwards are not getting any sort of quality ball, then why aren't the backs and midfield being let know about it. If a fellow forward is being wasteful/ selfish, when other forwards are in better positions, then why do they let it continue.

    I think most of all we need a gameplan, an effective style from management (one that plays to our strengths), and promising players being given the chance, not excuses about injuries and depleted squads. After that, we need players to show a bit of leadership, take responsibility, and starting to drag some performances out of the team. If Dublin had our attitude towards injury woes, they'd probably be in 1B at the moment and have gone out in the qualifiers last year. Is it too much to expect a little attitude and expectation from this team, after all we laud the 'traditional' counties for it, time and time again as an integral part of their success.

    Lastly, I think overall, the Brick at CF experiment needed to be tried, but has not worked. Time to shift him back to CB before we drain all confidence from him. Move Brick back, move Moran to midfield, and I think we start to look a lot more solid from midfield back, selection-wise. What to do about the half-forward line, I am really not sure, but something needs to be done, and with the players we have, or it is going to be a very sorry looking season.

    Trying to be optimistic, but aside from Gavin O'Brien, and perhaps Martin O'Neill, I am struggling to see green shoots here. As for being in transition, perhaps we are, but why should we let that dampen expectation, as it certainly hasn't with teams like Clare, who despite being a team in the making, look extremely dangerous. If we are in transition, I do not see us building for the future, I see David O'Sullivan/ Shane Fives/ Stephen Daniels/ Philip Mahony/ Adrian Power/ Stephen O'Keefe/ Tommy Ryan/ Brian O'Sullivan nowhere near the team in the positions they have proven themselves capable.

    We may look a slightly more dangerous outfit with the likes of Mullane, and perhaps Kelly back on the panel, but I really am struggling to see where the improvement is from last year. I'm all for giving Michael Ryan and co. a chance, but think they need to start giving Waterford hurling a chance..

    Ah would you come away out of it, Clare have been muck for the last few years and even though they have quite a few good young players at the moment, there is nobody in Clare expecting them to win an All-Ireland any time soon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3 lar na pairc


    Have to agree totally with your comments, play your strongest players/leaders in the position that suits them and the team the most. You don't see Brian Cody playing Brian Hogan up Centre Forward!
    One comment on the lenght of the warm up, nearly 35 mins, same in Cork, KK do 15/20 mins amx in one go, all with the ball??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭deisebhoy17


    deiseach wrote: »
    It was cash at the gate, and the stand was pretty much full. I'm sure you could have squeezed a few more in, but why should those who turn up with plenty of time to spare have to be crammed in to accommodate those who turn up at the last minute? The biggest problem in Walsh Park is the lack of proper terraces. Otherwise it's fine for our purposes.

    u must be in the county board. walsh park is a bloody disgrace and has been with some time. im not saying we need a big state of the art stadium in this county, far from it but need something thats more accessible and with the times.

    also saying that people who rush to get into matches right before the start deserve to be left waiting outside is ludicrous. many gaa followers have commitments at home with families, farms and business ect and make a effort to get there in time and pay their money like everyone else


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭lovelypoint


    daddydick wrote: »
    Ah would you come away out of it, Clare have been muck for the last few years and even though they have quite a few good young players at the moment, there is nobody in Clare expecting them to win an All-Ireland any time soon.

    Ha ha, All-Irelands aside, I shan't be taking anyone for granted come June. I suspect we may see a re-evaluation of your own opinion around then, or perhaps you've already forgotten the fright Clare gave us in Munster when we last met..


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,147 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    To add to that, it was Liam Lawlor and Tony Browne's first game of the year, Shane O'Sullivan is just coming back in as well, Maurice has been injured the past few weeks. Shane Walsh and Ringo will be back next week, to be fair that is significant strengthening.

    I don't think we'll be hammered by Tipp, Hardybuck, and I dunno the extent of your prophetic credentials but I have to say it's a bit much to say we'll be hammered by Galway and Dublin as well. Winning against Tipp and Galway would be a massive achievement in any year that we have to travel to their stadiums, so I'm not expecting a win but I think we'll put in a performance against them. Beating Dublin is achievable. They may have run Cork very close yesterday, but they were at home and while they are missing players, they weren't understrength to the extent that we have been. They also have better strength in depth, but once you have your full team available, it doesn't really matter how good no. 21-30 are from the point of view of winning a one off game.

    I think Tipp as second best team in the country will beat us well in Thurles. Galway seem to be motoring well also, and we have an awful record up in Salthill. As I previously stated, I think we have a chance against Dublin and relegation will be between the two.


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭lovelypoint


    PTH2009 wrote: »
    Doubt this is true but is there a need for it

    http://www.anfearrua.com/db.asp?a=topicdisplay&tid=1176451

    Yeah, you kinda wonder about it if there is any truth. If Dan hadn't retired, would have thought he would have made a good impact sub at full forward, and had something to offer, but that said he's gone now and you'd wonder about a player coming back like that (even if the GAA is full of famous return retirees..).


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭lovelypoint


    u must be in the county board. walsh park is a bloody disgrace and has been with some time. im not saying we need a big state of the art stadium in this county, far from it but need something thats more accessible and with the times.

    also saying that people who rush to get into matches right before the start deserve to be left waiting outside is ludicrous. many gaa followers have commitments at home with families, farms and business ect and make a effort to get there in time and pay their money like everyone else

    Don't think Walsh Park is the worst, and to be honest, I seem to have a growing fondness for it a little. That said, I do wish they would get the admin/ organisation side together, as the set-up on Sunday was poor.

    Don't really know what the solution is long term to the issue of our county ground(s), as there's a big gulf between the needs a club championship or even league intercounty fixtures place on a ground in terms of capacity required, and that of intercounty championship and the possibility of hosting our own home championship fixtures. With regard to the latter, we seem to have a lot of White Elephant-type stadia, and is there really need for another. What I would like to see, is a nice comfortable little venue maybe of hosting 12- 15,000, something in the vein of Nowlan Park, although obviously Nowlan Park holds a little more than that.

    Agree with you on the admission/ processing of people into Walsh Park too. County Board should be trying to make it as easy as possible for people to get into the game, mainly because fans deserve better (home & opposition), but also if its perceived to be hassle to get to a game, then people will vote with their feet (at least the floating fans).


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭lovelypoint


    hardybuck wrote: »
    I think Tipp as second best team in the country will beat us well in Thurles. Galway seem to be motoring well also, and we have an awful record up in Salthill. As I previously stated, I think we have a chance against Dublin and relegation will be between the two.

    Seems like it will come down to ourselves and Dublin as relegation canditates I feel, and if thats the case at this stage, why not be a little foolhardy and use the remaining three league games as experimental opportunities if relegation is going to come down to ourselves and Dublin in a relegation playoff..


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  • Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭mickmcl09


    daddydick wrote: »
    Ah would you come away out of it, Clare have been muck for the last few years and even though they have quite a few good young players at the moment, there is nobody in Clare expecting them to win an All-Ireland any time soon.

    I would be biased of course, being a Clare man but lovelypoint is not far off the mark to be fair in relation to both Clare and Waterford. I take it that you agreed with everything else he posted seen as you only took issue with what he said about Clare.

    Clare haven't been muck, they've played to their expectations and the supporters expectations bar the game against Galway last year, and that was a one man demolition job rather than a team effort on Galways part.

    This capitulation of sorts that we are witnessing with the Waterford team has been coming since last summer. I'd seen it last July/August.

    T.B. is a legend of Waterford hurling and indeed of the GAA, a great athlete but it's an indication of how weak the back up is (at this point of Tony's career) that there isn't a wing back in Waterford to take his place at this point in time.

    Mullane accounts for a massive portion of the teams scores and indeed assists, which in my opinion has been a much bigger factor than the injuries. It means the forward line is very much one dimensional and even with Mullane playing opposition are going to look at preventing him getting the ball, which is going to be all the easier unless 1 or 2 others come up to that level. And I'm not saying they can't, but there are no obvious lads to look to for now, next year, maybe.

    Kelly, another man on the wane for probably 2 years before it all finally came to a head. There's no doubting a 'kelly' operating at his potential is also a hugh loss.

    Fast forward to here and now. I think there is no doubt that the 'Brick' has to be returned to CB now. Hindsight is great, but any man that knows anything about hurling will tell you that you play your best players in their best position both at club and county level. It been one of the most farcical experiments I've seen in along time.

    A bigger concern than injuries is that the lads coming in seem to accept that the injured players will get their places when they return. You'd really like to see a number of these guys surprising people, Mgt & supporters alike and staking a claim but either they're not interested (and it's looked that way on occasion already this year, but lets be fair I'd be shocked if that was the case) or they're simply not good enough (which many of you might not like to hear) whether they will be in the future is any mans guess, simply because some of these lads are still fairly young.

    An even bigger one is when you hear sound bites from the team to simply go out and 'give it a lash' lads. A pep talk for a junior club team would be more comprehensive than that for gods sake.


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭lovelypoint


    mickmcl09 wrote: »
    I would be biased of course, being a Clare man but lovelypoint is not far off the mark to be fair in relation to both Clare and Waterford. I take it that you agreed with everything else he posted seen as you only took issue with what he said about Clare.

    Clare haven't been muck, they've played to their expectations and the supporters expectations bar the game against Galway last year, and that was a one man demolition job rather than a team effort on Galways part.

    This capitulation of sorts that we are witnessing with the Waterford team has been coming since last summer. I'd seen it last July/August.

    T.B. is a legend of Waterford hurling and indeed of the GAA, a great athlete but it's an indication of how weak the back up is (at this point of Tony's career) that there isn't a wing back in Waterford to take his place at this point in time.

    Mullane accounts for a massive portion of the teams scores and indeed assists, which in my opinion has been a much bigger factor than the injuries. It means the forward line is very much one dimensional and even with Mullane playing opposition are going to look at preventing him getting the ball, which is going to be all the easier unless 1 or 2 others come up to that level. And I'm not saying they can't, but there are no obvious lads to look to for now, next year, maybe.

    Kelly, another man on the wane for probably 2 years before it all finally came to a head. There's no doubting a 'kelly' operating at his potential is also a hugh loss.

    Fast forward to here and now. I think there is no doubt that the 'Brick' has to be returned to CB now. Hindsight is great, but any man that knows anything about hurling will tell you that you play your best players in their best position both at club and county level. It been one of the most farcical experiments I've seen in along time.

    A bigger concern than injuries is that the lads coming in seem to accept that the injured players will get their places when they return. You'd really like to see a number of these guys surprising people, Mgt & supporters alike and staking a claim but either they're not interested (and it's looked that way on occasion already this year, but lets be fair I'd be shocked if that was the case) or they're simply not good enough (which many of you might not like to hear) whether they will be in the future is any mans guess, simply because some of these lads are still fairly young.

    An even bigger one is when you hear sound bites from the team to simply go out and 'give it a lash' lads. A pep talk for a junior club team would be more comprehensive than that for gods sake.

    Nothing wrong with what is going on with Clare at all, especially if you can keep your challenge going longer each season and sort out your defense which has been your undoing this last year or two. Would be curious to hear what the opinion on Davy is up in Clare, given the mixed reactions to his appointment.

    Re: Waterford, I agree with you to an extent that some of our older, more experienced stand-out players are on the slide, but as you indicate in your post, this slide has been ongoing for a few years now, not just last July/ August. That said, given that none of these players have really lost pace, you would hope they might be rejuvenated by a shrewd management team.

    Not sure the experiment with Brick at centreforward was so farcical, but that said, I think we've all seen that it has not borne fruit, even if we are sadly lacking ball winners in the half forward line.

    A lot of our scores and assists do depend on Mullane, which is a worrying point, given that so much rests on one mans shoulders. That said transition comes at a price, and these last few year have not been kind to us in terms of forwards and retirements.

    In all, perhaps we may not have the players to mount a serious challenge for honours, probably something I would and more like me would be willing to admit to, if the best were being made out of what we currently have.. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭Deise Doodler


    Letting aside injurys and positional changes the most worring aspect of the game yesterday was the pace and intensity of our play. Striking, off the ball running, driving forward, and first touch was so labored yesterday that all the positional changes in the world would have made little diference.

    Aggree with most that the Brick experment has'nt worked ( was worth a try) and the more I see of Moran CB the less i like ( although could have done with his size and ability to run the opposition In Mid-field yesterday) but it seems to me that the work is not being done on the training ground.( not talking phyisical)

    Not going to defend Managment for it is their job to have things right and there seems little evidence of that but the players need to look at themselves.Playing with the speed and intensity that killkenny play with takes a lot of time to get right and waiting for summer will be far to late, The player's have the potential but it is ultimately up to them to make it happen.

    As for the managment they dont instill much confidance but they are there for this year at least like it or not time for the players to stand up


  • Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭mickmcl09


    Would be curious to hear what the opinion on Davy is up in Clare, given the mixed reactions to his appointment.

    It's mixed. IMO it felt like an appointment by default as I felt there was one candidate in particular that would have been a better choice, but he didn't want the job. I would like to think that this fella is being smart and waiting until Clare is in a better place in maybe 3 years when/if Davy's tenure comes to an end as the players will improve under Davy, I've no doubt. BUT, that doesn't necessarily mean as a team they will get better results.

    Davy is very professional in terms of preparation and he's not a guy that will be swayed one way or the other in terms of picking his '15'.

    On the negative side, there is a question over his tactical ability and understandably so. He got a rep for negative tactics with Waterford. Whether the tactics were right or wrong we'll never know, but if Clare were to get to semi final stage for the next number of years I won't be complaining. I reckon Waterford would not have achieved what they did under his tenure by doing things differently, in fact he'd have been out the door far quicker had he played the 15 man game that P. Flynn and M. Duignan advocate. He simply over used the tactic and it came home to bite him against Tipp last year with a 15 man game. The backs were simply not able to plug the gap left by the 7th man because they had got used of the luxury and everybody understandably jumped on the bandwagon looking for his head. Achiements are forgotten quickly, his time as Waterford manager had run it's course one way or the other anyway.

    Does he have other tactics, we'll see. I don't think that he's going to congest the back with this Clare team as I think they have the ability to hold their own. Supporters won't be very impressed if he used this as his 'go to' tactic however, especially if it backfires. I hope he's been doing a bit of ball hopping with Dalo' over the winter, one of the shrewdest managers out there along with Donal O'Grady. I don't think Daly would be divulging too many secrets though.

    Davy could do very well with Clare. The players will tow the line, so he'll have them in tip top condition. He's lucky as well in that there's alot of fighting to be on the panel not to mention the first 15. He only had 5 of the same players starting between the Waterford and Limerick games also gives you an indication of his determination to give every fella a fair crack at the whip.

    I actually think he lined up all the games and divided up the starts evenly among the players to a certain extent, so tactically that's a good start.


  • Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭hurler on de ditch


    Black Suir wrote: »
    There is a long way to go yet. While Waterford wont be in any final this year in the league, there is a good chance they wont be relegated. Dublin are my bet to drop down. Also lets not forget come championship time, I know its a different code, but Pat Flanagan who is training Waterford this year, (along with Jimmy Payne), has in the past had times peaking at the right time of the year and hopefully will again in the future.
    its not peaking fitness wise its hurling for f£$%s sake


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    Have to agree totally with your comments, play your strongest players/leaders in the position that suits them and the team the most. You don't see Brian Cody playing Brian Hogan up Centre Forward!
    One comment on the lenght of the warm up, nearly 35 mins, same in Cork, KK do 15/20 mins amx in one go, all with the ball??

    Yeah but Brian Hogan has never played in the forwards. Brick was wing forward and centre when he started out with Waterford. Then he was midfield. Centre back was the last position he played in. And also, Kilkenny have Richie Power, Eoin Larkin and Henry Shefflin. Any of those three could play centre forward.
    hardybuck wrote: »
    I think Tipp as second best team in the country will beat us well in Thurles. Galway seem to be motoring well also, and we have an awful record up in Salthill. As I previously stated, I think we have a chance against Dublin and relegation will be between the two.

    They got a fair hammering against Kilkenny too. We'll be better than we have been, I think we'll give them a decent game.
    mickmcl09 wrote: »
    Kelly, another man on the wane for probably 2 years before it all finally came to a head. There's no doubting a 'kelly' operating at his potential is also a hugh loss.

    Fast forward to here and now. I think there is no doubt that the 'Brick' has to be returned to CB now. Hindsight is great, but any man that knows anything about hurling will tell you that you play your best players in their best position both at club and county level. It been one of the most farcical experiments I've seen in along time.

    A bigger concern than injuries is that the lads coming in seem to accept that the injured players will get their places when they return. You'd really like to see a number of these guys surprising people, Mgt & supporters alike and staking a claim but either they're not interested (and it's looked that way on occasion already this year, but lets be fair I'd be shocked if that was the case) or they're simply not good enough (which many of you might not like to hear) whether they will be in the future is any mans guess, simply because some of these lads are still fairly young.

    An even bigger one is when you hear sound bites from the team to simply go out and 'give it a lash' lads. A pep talk for a junior club team would be more comprehensive than that for gods sake.

    How was the Brick experiment farcical? Because it hasn't worked? Does that make it a farce?

    And can you give a link to those sound bytes?


  • Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭mickmcl09


    How was the Brick experiment farcical? Because it hasn't worked? Does that make it a farce?

    And can you give a link to those sound bytes?

    Apologies, not a sound byte, I knew I read it somewhere, yeah after a half an hour of searching, post 1493 and the poster seemed to be very familiar with the goings on judging by his post. Not exactly a sound byte, but never the less:rolleyes:

    Brick experiment was a farce and should never have been tried to begin with.
    - a potential all star @ centre back for 2012, why would you deprive a team of a player in what is probably the most important position on the pitch.
    - top teams generally have the best centre backs and Moran isn't and won't be one of them.
    - when have we seen a top defender operate specifically at centre forward and dramatically change the fortunes of a team? Never, we've seen top defenders operate at FF alright but it's a completely different position to play in.

    Just naming some top CBs here, Tony Keady, Brian Corcoran, Sean McMahon. Do you thing their managers ever considered playing them CF when they were in their prime? No

    Let's name some CFs, Brendan Lynsky, John Power, Fergal McCormack and there's many more, they all were very comfortable in getting ball in the CB zone, very comfortable in ensuring a CB didn't influence a game. All of them capable of ball and CB watching simultaneously. The Brick is a looser type of player who can play his own game very effectively but he's not the man & ball watcher type thats required for the position.

    It's a farce because it hasn't worked, never looked like working and meanwhile while you persevere with the experiment, it means a number of players that could be tried out at CF are not going to get used of the position 'til it's too late. Similarly in the HB line. A CB and wing backs need to build awareness, how's that going to happen in the current state? The playing relationship of Hartley and Frampton comes to mind. They had a great understanding, it's developed over time. So yes it's a complete farce.

    There's also another option and that's to put a speed merchant at CF. A CB then has to decide whether to stay or go and it very often succeeds in disrupting things very effectively. Think O'Connell (Clare in 95) and Storey (Wex in 96) and Niall McCarthy (Cork). The BRICK is not a speed merchant either.
    All these guys were very effective CFs. The BRICK is the opposite. Very ineffective CF, very effective CB.

    So, all in all, a poorly calculated experiment that in my book qualifies it as a farce not simply because it hasn't worked, but because there wasn't any history or popular belief of something like this working not only for the individual but more importantly for the team. Don't even mention how far back this experiment has interfered with preparations.
    -


  • Registered Users Posts: 646 ✭✭✭mccarthy37


    Great news just got it in The Examiner. Mullane will be back for the Galway game Kelly also on the way back and Adrian Power has not left the panel. I'm looking forward to Adrian steeping up to the plate and being our number one goalie. he deserve's the chance. I have a feeling that Michael Ryan would love to put one over Tipp, a big ask in Thurles but not impossible. I think Ill keep my lips buttoned and watch how things unfold. I hope we don't go down to 1B division hurling but the date with Clare is the big prize and that's going to be some game, Davy will have his own county men well prepared for that one . Gavin OBrien has really been impressive for club and county could get a championship start if he keeps doing well. Looking forward to big improvements as the weeks go by. I think Tony Browne answered any critic of weakness'es in the Waterford panel because of his age, watching him last Sunday he was like a boy in fairness who would leave him off the panel the way he's playing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 282 ✭✭Hslaw


    mccarthy37 wrote: »
    Great news just got it in The Examiner. Mullane will be back for the Galway game Kelly also on the way back and Adrian Power has not left the panel. I'm looking forward to Adrian steeping up to the plate and being our number one goalie. he deserve's the chance. I have a feeling that Michael Ryan would love to put one over Tipp, a big ask in Thurles but not impossible. I think Ill keep my lips buttoned and watch how things unfold. I hope we don't go down to 1B division hurling but the date with Clare is the big prize and that's going to be some game, Davy will have his own county men well prepared for that one . Gavin OBrien has really been impressive for club and county could get a championship start if he keeps doing well. Looking forward to big improvements as the weeks go by. I think Tony Browne answered any critic of weakness'es in the Waterford panel because of his age, watching him last Sunday he was like a boy in fairness who would leave him off the panel the way he's playing.


    at last some good news, be nice to see Dan the man make a come back now Davy is gone.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    mccarthy37 wrote: »
    Great news just got it in The Examiner. Mullane will be back for the Galway game Kelly also on the way back and Adrian Power has not left the panel. I'm looking forward to Adrian steeping up to the plate and being our number one goalie. he deserve's the chance. I have a feeling that Michael Ryan would love to put one over Tipp, a big ask in Thurles but not impossible. I think Ill keep my lips buttoned and watch how things unfold. I hope we don't go down to 1B division hurling but the date with Clare is the big prize and that's going to be some game, Davy will have his own county men well prepared for that one . Gavin OBrien has really been impressive for club and county could get a championship start if he keeps doing well. Looking forward to big improvements as the weeks go by. I think Tony Browne answered any critic of weakness'es in the Waterford panel because of his age, watching him last Sunday he was like a boy in fairness who would leave him off the panel the way he's playing.

    funny the amount of bull that gets spouted around on this form "adrian power left because he was made play outfield" when the youngfella simply had a thesis to hand in. Ive said in the last 2 years that kelly shouldnt have been on the panel, the fact that hes returning is one of two things 1. ryan has buckled under the pressure of losing and is becoming desperate or 2. kelly has got his act together, hopefully now its the second one and we can see a fit, dangerous kelly up in the forward line!


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