Household charge

ART6 wrote: »

When you claim that tax is not excessive in Ireland I assume you mean by comparison with other countries. In that case you are clearly correct. However, my point is that the extent to which a level of taxation is sustainable has nothing to do with what it is in other countries. What matters is what the level is in relation to the strength of the national economy. If that is strong and vibrant, with consistent growth, then higher taxes are possible and may even be necessary to avoid overheating. If it is weak and in recession, with high unemployment and high company failures, then the level of tax sustainability must necessarily be much lower. There simply isn't the money there.

So you think the level of tax is too high?

Nobody wants more tax but Ireland is facing its most serious crisis since World War 2 (“The Emergency”) and action is required to address the problem of our growing debt mountain. Unpalatable as tax increases are, they are not so bad when you consider the alternatives.

Hard data are required to make a sustainable argument against either tax increases or government spending cuts.

You’re quite right that “what matters is what the level is in relation to the strength of the national economy”, but let’s measure this – say against GDP.

Gross domestic product (GDP) is the most accepted measure because it refers to the market value of all officially recognized final goods and services produced within a country in a given period.

The facts show that Ireland ranks very low in terms of tax as % of GDP, see:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tax_tot_tax_as_of_gdp-taxation-total-as-of-gdp

http://www.oecd.org/document/35/0,3746,en_2649_34533_46661795_1_1_1_1,00.html

golfwallah wrote: »

So you think the level of tax is too high?

Nobody wants more tax but Ireland is facing its most serious crisis since World War 2 (“The Emergency”) and action is required to address the problem of our growing debt mountain. Unpalatable as tax increases are, they are not so bad when you consider the alternatives.

Hard data are required to make a sustainable argument against either tax increases or government spending cuts.

You’re quite right that “what matters is what the level is in relation to the strength of the national economy”, but let’s measure this – say against GDP.

Gross domestic product (GDP) is the most accepted measure because it refers to the market value of all officially recognized final goods and services produced within a country in a given period.

The facts show that Ireland ranks very low in terms of tax as % of GDP, see:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tax_tot_tax_as_of_gdp-taxation-total-as-of-gdp

http://www.oecd.org/document/35/0,3746,en_2649_34533_46661795_1_1_1_1,00.html

I understand your argument, but I am reluctant to accept GDP as a yardstick on what the public can afford in taxes. The fact that a significant part of the GDP is, for example, created by the pharmaceutical industry doesn't provide any indication of what Joe Public can afford.

What would be more meaningful to me would be what proportion of personal incomes is taken by the government in the form of taxes, duties, charges, levies, VAT, RSI, etc. All of those are taxes, irrespective of what they are called by the spin doctors. When they all, combined, reach a point where Joe no longer has sufficient money to meet his other needs, such a food, clothing, housing, and yes, some for recreation and pleasure (unless we are reintroducing slavery), then the tax level ceases to be sustainable and is likely to become retrograde.

I don't dispute that the country is in a desperate financial state, but that was not the focus of my comments. All I am saying is that if a tax level becomes unsustainable, then increased taxes will no longer be the solution to the nation's debt problem. If that occurs then the only alternative, I imagine, would be the Greek solution.

There is another aspect in addition to tax sustainability. That is tax acceptability, where a point is reached when the public no longer are prepared to accept increasing taxes. That point can be extended by honest and open government, with the issues clearly explained to the electorate without bullying and without threats. Get the people to row in behind the policy and regularly review it publicly to take any opportunities to make reductions as time goes on and conditions improve. I believe that the current government has singularly failed to do that. What FG and Labour have succeeded in doing is to get the people's backs up by lying, spinning, threatening, and bullying without ever changing their own lifestyles.

ART6 wrote: »

That point can be extended by honest and open government, with the issues clearly explained to the electorate without bullying and without threats. Get the people to row in behind the policy and regularly review it publicly to take any opportunities to make reductions as time goes on and conditions improve. I believe that the current government has singularly failed to do that. What FG and Labour have succeeded in doing is to get the people's backs up by lying, spinning, threatening, and bullying without ever changing their own lifestyles.

best summary of how quickly this gov seems to have turned the same as the rest and so quickly. the prob is they have no wriggle room. so will get turned on much faster, roll on the next elections

Tax is 29.8% of national income in Irl.

EU average is 40% approx.

Highest is 50% approx.

Lowest is 27.4% of GDP.

Do you get your GDP data from the ESRI?

GDP is measured by the CSO.

Tax is 29.8% of national income in Irl.

In this period of "austerity" not only lower than other places in the EU but 3-4% lower as a percentage of GNP than in the late 90s, which weren't particularly austere.

If we had a 1990s tax structure and expenditure at real 2005 levels we wouldn't be far off.

Worztron wrote: »

I wonder will he have to pay the household charge or will it also be subsidised. :mad:

http://www.politics.ie/forum/fine-gael/187236-health-minister-james-reilly-receiving-tax-breaks-his-mansion.html

http://www.thejournal.ie/minister-and-wife-claim-tax-breaks-on-13-bed-moneygall-mansion-127346-Apr2011/

Not seeing the issue. And what has this actually got to do with the household charge?

meglome wrote: »

Not seeing the issue. And what has this actually got to do with the household charge?

Well someone in a tiny cottage is expected to pay the same as this FG royal in his 13 bed abomination.

Geuze wrote: »

Tax is 29.8% of national income in Irl.

EU average is 40% approx.

Highest is 50% approx.

Lowest is 27.4% of GDP.

Perhaps compare everything....... and rather than comparing the tax people pay in a year, compare the real net income after levies / social charges etc.

What's the EU average of levies? e.g. Levy on Health Insurance here @ € 285 per adult. Levies on other insurances, Levies on Plastic Bags, Universal Social Charge etc.

'VRT' for cars? (The VRT is a replacement for an Excise duty put on motor vehicles, that was introduced to 'protect' the Ford factory in Cork.)

meglome wrote: »

That wasn't your point, but okay.

Do you support a fully property tax then?

No. It will just increase exponentially and will go to pay off debts that the Irish public don't even owe.

Although I'd be in favor of a severe fully property tax on all politicians (past and present) homes.

Icepick wrote: »

Such as?

Do some research.

meglome wrote: »

Spell it out for us. Because saying the debt isn't ours won't change the reality that it is.

Do you seriously think paying back investors that took a risk and lost is just?

I am a strong supporter of property taxes, comined with lower marginal income tax rates (52% on 35k is crazy).

I do not support repaying bank senior bondholders. In particular, I feel we should not repay the 30.6 bn in Promissory Notes linked to Anglo and Irish Nationwide.

The real problem is that the fundementals of the country are broken.

A bloated and career and party driven political elite that put these issues before critical country and people isues. Far to many TD's, paid too much, big pensions and no incentive to achieve as failure just results in having to wait a few years before re-election. No accountability.

An outdated public sector. Far too many quango's doing all much the same job. No value or accountability.

Obscene duplication and inefficiency in county councils (get rid) with serious corruption at the higher levels. Not accountable to anyone.

A system that rewards friends and family and not good decision making. The intelligent and sound of mind are beaten down while a circle of powerful promote their own at the expense of the country.

Finally to top it all off we still have a populace that accepts the will of power and authority without question. From the church to doctors to TD's. People accept without question what authority dictates.

To change our country we must first change ourselves. Otherwise we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

Worztron wrote: »

Do you seriously think paying back investors that took a risk and lost is just?

What has whether something is "just" got to do with whether something is "ours" or not?

It is whose name that is on the "I.O.U" that counts...