Prehistoric Hiberno/Serbian theory

For example Surya have related words in just about all IE languages.

Of course it does. It is the sun god or the Arians. But sun worship is foreign to India. It was brought to India from Europe. Suria is Su Ri Ja = sun king I am. He is the equivalent of Mitra, Mitairsvan = mi +dari + svan = me + gives + light = giver of light, or Surban = Su + Ri + Ban = Sun + king + white, lord, Zaratustra = zara, zora + tvoristvar = day + creator, Oziris, Ozarisl, Osuris = o + su + ri + s = the sun king, the one who shines

He is sun, sunce, sol, ilios, vid...and later Christ. He is the holy Sun, the creator.

This is older than Vedas.

No I am not joking.

Nuclear family was the place where original language was created. This is also the place where language is learned.
As family grows, nuclear family becomes extended family, then clan, then tribe, then nation. All along the same language is used between members of the members of this growing family to keep communication going. Family is preserved through communication and cooperation and for that you need a common language.
If all these people are linked genetically, through father to son inheritance, I believe that we can talk about genetic languages. R1a languages, R1b languages, I2a languages...As genetic tribes mix, genetic languages mix...If genetic tribes disappear genetic language might disappear as well, unless it was passed onto in full or in part to some other genetic tribe. Today's languages are evolved mix of old languages. This is why we can find ancient language structures and words in modern languages. Serbian language is a mix of R1a, I2a, E1b, R1b...languages. Irish language is a mix of R1b, I2a, I1, R1a...languages. But Russian is a mix of R1a and N languages. Spanish is a mix of R1b, E1b...languages. Basque is pretty much pure R1b language. This is why we can find certain linguistic traits in Serbian and Irish but not in other Slavic languages or Atlantic (or as you know them Celtic) languages. Because both Serbian and Irish share I2a language traits not present in say Welsh. This is why certain words are found in some Germanic and Slavic languages but not in French or other Germanic languages. Because the languages who have these common characteristics share common R1a language...

Do you have a better explanation for language development and propagation?

And exactly, all the above etymologies of the ancient gods are in Serbian. Or to be more precise in the remnant of either I2a or R1a ancient language, preserved in Serbian. Language spoken by people who created the sun god and spread it around the world...The Arians were R1a people. So Su is the root name of the sun words in R1a languages....

This belongs to the " science fiction double feature doctor x will build a creature" forum I'm afraid.

Thankfully Ezra not everyone thinks like you. As I told you before unless you have something to actually contribute, some fact that I forgot to mention, example where I was wrong and proof why I am wrong, you can go and play somewhere else. No one is asking you to hang around here. Repeating "I don't like this" without any counter argument helps no one and is frankly boring.

Are you a guard? Or are you my secret follower?

Again you are skimming not reading:

You see Ezra, my Vinca thread is my main thread, where I post things I am pretty sure about. I use other threads on this board, and other boards to discuss things that I am not sure about. I am actually planning to publish pretty much everything from the above linguistic thread to my vinca thread. But thank you for posting the link. Now everyone can see what kind of linguists you take as authorities.

I like talking to other people about what I am interested in. And I always point to my main Vinca thread as a source of Information. I created my facebook page solely to bring more people to my vinca thread on this board. almost 30,000 people read my posts. And keep reading. Obviously if they thought it was crap, they would not come back.

dubhthach

I wanted to see who I am dealing with. You seem pretty serious about your R1b genes. Someone who writes something like this:

I've no problem with saying the following:
My Y-Chromosome haplogroup is: R1b1a2a1a2c1i (R1b-DF41)
R1b-DF41 is a subclade of R1b-DF13, DF13 makes up about 90% of all R1b-L21+ men.
I am a administrator of the Ireland yDNA Project in FTDNA with over 5k members
I am the administrator of the R-DF41 & Subclades Project in FTDNA
I've tested to 111 STR's as well as tested multiple SNP's so as to place R1b-DF41 on the ISOGG R tree
I've also tested Autosomal DNA in the form of 23andme
I'm in the process of awaiting my results on a Full Y-Chromosome scan (20-25 million megabases) which cost me about €1,200

Is pretty serious. Why? Are you a geneticist? If not, why are you so obsessed with your genes?

You seem to get personally offended when I dare to question the role R1b played in Europe in last 10,000 years. And it is statements like this next one that confirm to me that you connect race, genes and politics.

So going by your twisted logic surely if I was to identify my entire image based on my Y-Chromosome then I should be a devout royalist to the cause of my Jacobite near relatives?

My stance on genetic genealogy is this:

I believe that genetic genealogy is important tool that we can use to help us understand the past. Full stop. Anything beyond that is racism and insanity.

Which part of this did you not understand?

My twisted logic states:

Nuclear family was the place where original language was created. This is also the place where language is learned.
As family grows, nuclear family becomes extended family, then clan, then tribe, then nation. All along the same language is used between members of the members of this growing family to keep communication going. Family is preserved through communication and cooperation and for that you need a common language.
If all these people are linked genetically, through father to son inheritance, I believe that we can talk about genetic languages. R1a languages, R1b languages, I2a languages...As genetic tribes mix, genetic languages mix...If genetic tribes disappear genetic language might disappear as well, unless it was passed onto in full or in part to some other genetic tribe. Today's languages are evolved mix of old languages. This is why we can find ancient language structures and words in modern languages. Serbian language is a mix of R1a, I2a, E1b, R1b...languages. Irish language is a mix of R1b, I2a, I1, R1a...languages. But Russian is a mix of R1a and N languages. Spanish is a mix of R1b, E1b...languages. Basque is pretty much pure R1b language. This is why we can find certain linguistic traits in Serbian and Irish but not in other Slavic languages or Atlantic (or as you know them Celtic) languages. Because both Serbian and Irish share I2a language traits not present in say Welsh. This is why certain words are found in some Germanic and Slavic languages but not in French or other Germanic languages. Because the languages who have these common characteristics share common R1a language...

You might also know that I wrote this on Vinca thread:

I am aware of the work of both Jovan Deretic and Anatolii Klesov. They both point at very important fact that in Serbia we have unbroken cultural, linguistic and genetic continuity through R1a population, lasting at least 12,000 years. This is why we can use Serbian language and culture to answer some of the oldest cultural and linguistic questions that are still unanswered. But Serbians are a mix. We have pretty much every old Y haplogroup present in Serbia in significant numbers. Most importantly we have huge I2a population which is probably indigenous to the Balkans, and which has also preserved their own culture and language and have added it to the mix which is today Serbian culture and Language. We also have large old R1b population in Eastern Serbia which has also added their culture and language to the Serbian mix.


This is why I have a problem with things like: "Serbian gene is 12,000 years old and comes from the son of Noah".

Firstly what does Noah have to do with any of this? Second, this statement implies that Serbs are R1a population, which they are, but only partially. If Serbs were pure R1a race, then Serbian language and culture would not have been so interesting. It is the fact that Serbs are such a mix of races, and that Serbian culture and language are such a mix of cultures and languages, which makes Serbian (Croatian, Bosnian) language and culture almost like a living cultural Roseta stone. People in Serbia, preserved some of the oldest cultural and linguistic traits which have been lost in other parts of Eurasia populated by R1a, R1b and I2 people. We have the same situation in Irish culture and language. It also hides some of the oldest I2a, R1a, R1b cultural and linguistic layers still existing in the world. This is why when we cross reference Irish and Serbian culture and language we come up with almost like a code which we can use to decipher things from these ancient cultures.

Your "not twisted" straight logic connects genes and politics. This is your problem. You can not see facts as facts. You seem to see them as threats to the cultural and political position of the genetic group you belong to. This is clearly visible from the fact that you are still talking about "Arbins". What is your problem with term Arbin? Do you find it offensive? Why? Are you the only Irish person with no sense of humor?

You say that I keep making outlandish claims about Haplogroups, like that I2 connected to metal.

Vincans invented metal in the Balkans. For thousands of years they were the only ones who new how to make metal. Do you think that they would not have words for metal and metal production elements? Now look at European metal related words. A lot of them have their roots in Serbian words for metal and metal related activities? Even word metal comes from that language and its original meaning is preserved in Serbian:

From Middle English, from Old French metal (“metal”), from Latin metallum (“metal, mine, quarry, mineral”), from Ancient Greek μέταλλον (métallon, “mine, quarry, metal”), from μέταλλευειν (métalleuein, “to mine, quarry”), of unknown origin, but apparently related to μέταλλαν (métallan, “to seek after”), also of unknown origin.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/metal

So we don't know where the word comes from. Now look at Serbian.

Med - middle
Medju - in the middle

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/m%C3%A9d%CA%B0yos#Proto-Indo-European

Med - honey, something which is in between the honey comb.
Med - brass, bronze, alloy, something which is "med", between two metals.

Metal = Med + dal = what gave brass, bronze

Kal, Kalj - black, dirt
Kalaijsan - black, dirty
Kaliti - harden metal. Copper is hardened by addition, dirtying of copper with tin. Kaliti literally means dirtying.
Kalaj - tin, literally to dirt with

Kal - black, dirt, coal
Ugalj, Ukal - into black, dirt, describes production of charcoal used for copper smelting in Vinca.

I already gave you example of kov. How is it possible that these words survived in Serbian? Why not in German, French, Russian, Irish? Because Serbian happen to be descendants of I2a population. So they preserved these words from I2a language as well. This is most plausible explanation.

Vincans were a tribal union. They had unique culture, and writing. So they must have had unique language. I don't claim that all Vincans were I2a. I claim that their language belonged to I2a language group, meaning language group originally developed and spoken by the immediate ancestors of the first I2a person. But maybe I am wrong. If you have any better explanation please elaborate it.

You also say that my claim that R1a1 is the only one Indo-European haplogroup is ridiculous. I don't think they are the only Indoeuropean haplogroup. I believe that they were the Proto Indo Europeans. Look at ancient DNA from Germany to China. And the present one. They are predominantly R1a. These Proto Indo Europeans mixed with other genetic tribes, like R1b, I2a, E1b, G2, J, Q... and formed many Indoeuropean cultures and languages.

I need to emphasize something here. When I say genetic tribe, I mean that particular genetic paternal lineage, clan had dominance in that tribe. Like Irish and R1b, or Russians and R1a, Or Serbocroatians and I2a. These tribes could have been, and probably were already mixed genetically before the 3rd millennium bc, but the dominant family would have been the carrier of the culture and language. I don't see the problem with this.

You also say: "Let you fail to put your money where your mouth is." What exactly do you mean by this?

So what does my Y tell me, it tell's me of inter-connectedness across Eurasia. From a 24,000 year old boy who lived in Southern Siberia and was R* (and who other then his Y was more closely related to East Asian's and Native American's then me). To the fact that Paragroup P (the parent of R* and Q* -- which consists of most Native American men --) probably arose in Oceania/South East Asia and then spread northbound into eastern Eurasia before spreading west.

No one disputes inter-connectedness. But inter-connectedness is not stemming from everyone coming from the same Indoeuropean tribe. Inter-connectedness stems from actual mixing of different tribes.

This group P is interesting. The oldest known polished stone tools are from Hinatabayashi B site, Shinanomachi, Nagano. Pre-Jōmon (Paleolithic) period, 30,000 BC. They then spread northward to Siberia and then eastward to Europe. They are extremely important, because they herald the start of the Neolithic which eventually gave us Vinca and metal. No axes, no wood, no charcoal, no copper.

Skeletal characteristics point to many similarities with other aboriginal people of the Asian continent. Dental structures belong to the Sundadont group, mainly distributed in ancient populations of South-East Asia (where current populations belong to the Sinodont group). Skull features tend to be stronger, with comparatively recessed eyes.
The aboriginal populations of the Ainu, today mostly confined to the northern island of Hokkaidō, appear to be the descendants of these Paleolithic populations, and display features that have, in the past, been interpreted as Caucasoid, but today tend to be considered more generally as part of that early Paleolithic human stock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Paleolithic

Genetic testing has shown them to belong mainly to Y-haplogroup D-M55.[48] Y-DNA haplogroup D2 is found frequently throughout the Japanese Archipelago including Okinawa. The only places outside of Japan in which Y-haplogroup D is common are Tibet and the Andaman Islands in the Indian Ocean.[49]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people

Like haplogroup C, D-M174 is believed to represent the Great Coastal Migration along southern Asia, from Arabia to Southeast Asia and thence northward to populate East Asia. It is found today at high frequency among populations in Tibet, the Japanese Archipelago, and the Andaman Islands, though curiously not in India. The Ainu of Japan are notable for possessing almost exclusively Haplogroup D-M174 chromosomes, although Haplogroup C-M217 chromosomes also have been found in 15% (3/20) of sampled Ainu males. Haplogroup D-M174 chromosomes are also found at low to moderate frequencies among populations of Central Asia and northern East Asia as well as the Han and Miao–Yao peoples of China and among several minority populations of Sichuan and Yunnan that speak Tibeto-Burman languages and reside in close proximity to the Tibetans.[4]
Unlike haplogroup C-M217, Haplogroup D-M174 is not found in the New World; it is not present in any modern Native American (North, Central or South) populations. While it is possible that it traveled to the New World like Haplogroup C-M217, those lineages apparently became extinct.
Haplogroup D-M174 is also remarkable for its rather extreme geographic differentiation, with a distinct subset of Haplogroup D-M174 chromosomes being found exclusively in each of the populations that contains a large percentage of individuals whose Y-chromosomes belong to Haplogroup D-M174: Haplogroup D-M15 among the Tibetans (as well as among the mainland East Asian populations that display very low frequencies of Haplogroup D-M174 Y-chromosomes), Haplogroup D-M55 among the various populations of the Japanese Archipelago, Haplogroup D-P99 among the inhabitants of Tibet, Tajikistan and other parts of mountainous southern Central Asia, and paragroup D-M174 without tested positive subclades (probably another monophyletic branch of Haplogroup D) among the Andaman Islanders. Another type (or types) of paragroup D-M174 without tested positive subclades is found at a very low frequency among the Turkic and Mongolic populations of Central Asia, amounting to no more than 1% in total. This apparently ancient diversification of Haplogroup D-M174 suggests that it may perhaps be better characterized as a "super-haplogroup" or "macro-haplogroup." In one study, the frequency of Haplogroup D-M174 without tested positive subclades found among Thais was 10%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_D-M174

Somehow the D people seem to have transferred their stone polishing technology to Siberia.

In Siberia the oldest ground axes date to 20,000 bp
in the valley of Yenisei (Oda & Keally 1973, 19, cited
by Anderson & Summerhayes 2008, 49).

The first ground-edge axes are found at the
beginning of the Mesolithic in Ireland, such as at
Lough Boora (Co. Offaly), in habitation levels dated
to 7160–6260 bc.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88747210&postcount=222

Who could have picked up this knowledge in Siberia from D people? R* people. They eventually brought the technology to Europe. But which R* people dominate Forest areas of Siberia? R1a. Which ancient R* subclade was found from China to the Balkans? Which R* people were renowned for their carpentry skills, their fire making skills, their fort building skills even in early medieval time? R1a people. Without stone axe polishing technology, there would be no Vinca. So Vincans could have been R1a as well as I2. Maybe a mix? Maybe kljusov is right, that the Balkan R1a is the oldest in Europe.

dubhthach

You can give lectures to someone else. You know what I mean and everyone else knows what I mean. But if you have no better argument...

Leaving aside that R1b wasn't even in Europe 10,000 years ago so I don't see the relevance of your point. The clear and precise data from both scientific study (of present and ancient samples) and from testing databases is that R1b is intrusive in Europe just as R1a is. Both having arrived no early then the Bronze age.

This is possible. What is the oldest ancient Y chromosome discovered so far? Isn't there a time barrier after which it is impossible to do the analysis because the genetic material is too damaged? What is the oldest ancient Y dna sample that was analyzed successfully?
What about Corded ware culture? It is in Central Europe and it is a mixture of I, R1a and G. What about cultures which burned their dead? What about Vinca skeletons? Did anyone do genetic analysis on them, or on Lepenski vir skeletons?

You can not conclusively say who lived in Europe in the 5th millennium bc, at the time of Vinca culture, unless you have analyzed dna samples which can prove it.

I think it's fairly obviously from the line you quoted that I don't associate race, politics and genes.

Good.

The most basal R1a in Europe of course is actually found in the northwest, and not in Balkans where it's clearly intrusive and probably dates to period after the fall of the Roman Empire. Which is born out by the lack of upstream clades of R1a in the area.

This actually does not have to be true. First, we don't know who lived in the Balkans 5000 years ago. We know who lives there now. Even if you only use today's data, you can not exclude the possibility that R1a in north of Europe came from the Balkans or from China for that matter. People move. But we have archaeological evidence that people colonized the north of Europe after the last ice age from the Balkans. Also the farmers moved through the Balkans to the north. Metal was brought from the Balkans to the north as well. Someone had to do it, and that someone brought their genes with them as well. The same people could have moved down south from the north later. We don't know who any of these people were genetically. We simply have no data to prove it. We are all speculating. I am basing my speculation on the link between the archaeological and linguistic data with current and ancient genetic data. What are you basing your speculation on?

Also there is no need to be so aggressive. I am not your enemy you know.