My Mother Got Fined

Hilly Bill · 08-10-2015 2:52pm

Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »

however, there is more to this than meets the eye. At first, I was very disappointed in her but then I learned that the Leap Card machine wasn't working (apparently the machine at Kilbarrack is permanently broke) - so I asked her if she maybe she did it too fast as the train was right in front !

Did your mother tell you that she couldnt tag on at the time because the machine was broken or did you hear later that the tag pole never works so are looking for a way not to pay the fine based on "Sure the pole never works anyway " ? Im just trying to paint the picture here and not judging in anyway.

The barber of chewbacca wrote: »

The Kilbarrack ticket office is open on a part-time basis. As far as I know, there is only one employee who works there.

The Leap machines are constantly broken.

I have often jumped on the train without tagging on, usually going into the city centre. I get off at Tara Street and approach the guys at the ticket barrier and explain the situation. They have never had an issue with it and I just pay them the fare. I'm not sure about other stations though.

Does it work out cheaper than tagging off and then ring Leap and get them to reimburse the balance ?

devnull wrote: »

There are four ways to tag on/off at Kilbarrack. I find it hard to believe they re all broken.

If you get on at the northbound platform and the train has just arrived i cant see anyone walking over the bridge to tag on and then back again if the one at the swans nest gate is not working.

The barber of chewbacca wrote: »

The two barriers are rarely, if ever, broken. However, the ticket office, where the barriers are located, is closed for a lot of the day.

The tag on/off machines are broken on a consistent basis.

There are ways around it though. Inconvenient as it may be, you could jump on at Kilbarrack and get off at Raheny or Howth Junction to validate your ticket. You could walk to either of these stations as they are not far away. Or as I previously mentioned, explain to the staff at your destination.

If the ticket office is open, there is no excuse for not having a valid ticket.

I cant see anyone getting off or even going to another station just to tag on if the poles are not working, i doubt anyone in Irish Rail would expect you to either.

Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »

Yes, my mother tried to pay at the validator at the gate. Does that one usually work?

Anyways, good thing I use Dublin Bus more than Irish Rail. :P

Yes, as its gets used by a lot of people daily without any problems.

Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »

So, is there any way out for her or will she just have to cough up the dough?

You can always appeal, stating that the validator wasnt working at the time and the train was at the station and they cant expect someone to cross over the bridge to tag on and wait another 30 minutes for the next train. Just bear in mind they have a daily record of which machines are not working.

Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »

She goes to an English course in Kilbarrack and goes home via the North gate (we live in Portmarnock), train was right in front of her so I guess she was in that desperation mentality. We have a month to appeal this letter, I think we'll do it. What's the worst that can happen?

Thats the bit that might go against you, it comes across that she didnt tag on properly because she was in a hurry. Worst case is that the fine will be upheld.

Unrelenting Sorrow wrote: »

She was fined on the 6th October, 2015, at 13:10pm (1:30pm). She attempted to pay through the North gate so she was nowhere near the Southern ticket office. There. Does that answer your question, sir?

I take it you mean 1:10? At which point after getting on the train in killbarack did she get fined? sounds very unlucky seeing that she was only going 3 stops.

FishOnABike wrote: »

Could these posts constitute supporting evidence that it is not uncommon for there to be no means of payment prior to embarkation .

No as we can post anything we want on here its no proof that it actually happened.

They need to make the northside dart stations more secure to stop people getting on and off without paying. Kilbarrack being the worst of them , the far gate is left open 24/7 allowing access to the network without paying. If they are serious about revenue protection and passenger safety then they should invest in making these stations secure.

Metroboulot · 08-10-2015 2:55pm

A lot of passengers wouldn't even know that you could cross to use the validated on the opposite side.

I'd have assumed it might tag you for travel in the opposite direction.

end of the road · 08-10-2015 3:16pm

devnull wrote: »

people here are clearly jus tlooking for an excuse to evade rather than honestly not being able to pay.

no, i don't agree. genuine reasons can come up as to why people can't pay. mostly du to what sounds like, irish rail not looking after its equipment, or at least not being aware when it breaks and having something in place to deal with fare payment. this issue comes up here time and time again, i'd suggest there is some bit of a problem on irish rails side. fare evasion is a problem but irish rail aren't helping themselves by not ensuring their equipment is working, or at least not knowing about it and putting something in place to give people a chance to pay. this type of thing only makes me believe more that the penalty fare system is being used as a form of revenue collection rather then a genuine attempt to curb fare evasion TBH.

end of the road · 08-10-2015 3:18pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

Of course it is, but equipment not working isn't a carte blanche to not pay. If you disagree with the terms and conditions of the service you should stop using the service.

if you have no other options at the station to pay then i'm afraid it has to be. its irish rail's problem and irish rail's duty to ensure that if equipment doesn't work, people have other options to pay. ensuring options to pay is the priority.

Hilly Bill · 08-10-2015 3:20pm

end of the road wrote: »

no, i don't agree. genuine reasons can come up as to why people can't pay. mostly du to what sounds like, irish rail not looking after its equipment, or at least not being aware when it breaks and having something in place to deal with fare payment. this issue comes up here time and time again, i'd suggest there is some bit of a problem on irish rails side. fare evasion is a problem but irish rail aren't helping themselves by not ensuring their equipment is working, or at least not knowing about it and putting something in place to give people a chance to pay. this type of thing only makes me believe more that the penalty fare system is being used as a form of revenue collection rather then a genuine attempt to curb fare evasion TBH.

To be fair and not in all cases there are those that blame faulty equipment rather than their own actions .

end of the road · 08-10-2015 3:28pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

The validators are working in all stations across the country 100% of the time

clearly not

runawaybishop wrote: »

and have been since 1920.

when and where has ireland had TVMS since 1920?

runawaybishop wrote: »

Posts aren't evidence, not in the slightest.

who would be submitting boards posts as evidence anyway?

runawaybishop wrote: »

if there was a working ticket machine at the station then she didn't make reasonable effort to pay.

she did if the working one is at the other platform and say, the lift wasn't working or the footbridge was shut or dangerous.

end of the road · 08-10-2015 3:32pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

To be fair and not in all cases there are those that blame faulty equipment rather than their own actions .

i agree, however it does seem to me irish rail does have an issue with ensuring their ticket machines work, or at least knowing when they don't so something can be put in place to make sure people get a chance to pay

dutopia · 08-10-2015 3:36pm

I agree Irish Rail need to do a lot more to keep their machines working properly, but if there is a way to pay for a ticket, either by Leap Card, ticket machine or buying one from Irish Rail staff at the station then there is no excuse for not having a valid ticket.

FishOnABike · 08-10-2015 3:48pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

The validators are working in all stations across the country 100% of the time and have been since 1920.

Is my sarcasm detector broken. Numerous posts seem to indicate multiple non functional validators at a station are a somewhat regular occurrence.

Hilly Bill · 08-10-2015 4:15pm

end of the road wrote: »

i agree, however it does seem to me irish rail does have an issue with ensuring their ticket machines work, or at least knowing when they don't so something can be put in place to make sure people get a chance to pay

They do ensure that their ticket machines work and the validators, it just takes time from a reported fault to get them fixed.

Grolschevik · 08-10-2015 4:43pm

end of the road wrote: »

clearly not

when and where has ireland had TVMS since 1920?

who would be submitting boards posts as evidence anyway?

she did if the working one is at the other platform and say, the lift wasn't working or the footbridge was shut or dangerous.

FishOnABike wrote: »

Is my sarcasm detector broken. Numerous posts seem to indicate multiple non functional validators at a station are a somewhat regular occurrence.

The poster was making the point (through sarcasm) that posts on boards aren't worth the paper they're (not) written on in evidential terms or in terms of accuracy.

Eugene Norman · 08-10-2015 5:38pm

I don't think they should be allowed to fine any leap card in credit. If the user jumps the gates at the end then catch him.

With a leap card you pay on exit, a hold is put on the card on entrance.

xlogo · 08-10-2015 5:46pm

Can't she use the name of the inspector and say that he advised her to appeal the fine as he must have also thought it was wrong (but had to do his duty).

Hilly Bill · 08-10-2015 6:36pm

No, he's just letting her know that she can appeal the fine . Its the same with every fine issued, every one can appeal even if they are clearly in the wrong.

Hilly Bill · 08-10-2015 6:39pm

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I don't think they should be allowed to fine any leap card in credit. If the user jumps the gates at the end then catch him.

With a leap card you pay on exit, a hold is put on the card on entrance.

Wrong, you pay on entry. It puts money back onto the card if the fare is less than €4:70.

Eugene Norman · 08-10-2015 6:44pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Wrong, you pay on entry. It puts money back onto the card if the fare is less than €4:70.

Same as a hold. You're wrong, the card doesn't deduct the full amount on entry ( the 4:70 is in brackets). If you were to miss the exit barrier it then deducts the actual amount after a time period. If you exit without validating in it deducts the 4:70.

Somebody who is fined on a DART for not validating on has to pay.

1) the maximum fare on exit.
2) the actual fare.
3) 100€ for not paying 2) even though they paid 1)

Seems unfair to me.

devnull · 08-10-2015 7:36pm

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I don't think they should be allowed to fine any leap card in credit. If the user jumps the gates at the end then catch him.

That would just encourage people not to tag on even more in the acknowledgement that worst that could happen is that they would just have to pay the fare, best case they won't have to pay at all.

As someone who daily has to travel on a packed dart that is too short for the service it operates on and pays a large sum to Irish Rail for the privilege I would be decreasing the incentive to evade, not encouraging it.

devnull · 08-10-2015 7:41pm

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Same as a hold. You're wrong, the card doesn't deduct the full amount on entry ( the 4:70 is in brackets). If you were to miss the exit barrier it then deducts the actual amount after a time period. If you exit without validating in it deducts the 4:70.

No - you are wrong. As one of the first testers for the LEAP card years ago, I know exactly how it works. If you don't believe me go and register your leap card online and see what it tells you. Fares are deducted and then refunded when you tag off.

Also the balance is stored on the card. There is no way money can be deducted from a card without it coming into contact with a validator, a gate or a ticket machine or a top-up machine. It simply isn't possible ..

1) the maximum fare on exit.
2) the actual fare.
3) 100€ for not paying 2) even though they paid 1)

It's about having a deterrent as well. If the punishment is little then people are more likely to risk it knowing that even if they get caught several times a year, the money they save on the times they don't get caught is vastly more than what they lose when they are caught. That's why there is an argument for making the fine as high as possible.

It astounds me on this board in the last few days the number of people who advocate making things easier for fare dodgers and thinking they are treated too harshly. I have never skipped a fare in my life but I'm starting to think I'm in the minority here.

end of the road · 08-10-2015 8:14pm

devnull wrote: »

No - you are wrong. As one of the first testers for the LEAP card years ago, I know exactly how it works. If you don't believe me go and register your leap card online and see what it tells you. Fares are deducted and then refunded when you tag off.

Also the balance is stored on the card. There is no way money can be deducted from a card without it coming into contact with a validator, a gate or a ticket machine or a top-up machine. It simply isn't possible ..

It's about having a deterrent as well. If the punishment is little then people are more likely to risk it knowing that even if they get caught several times a year, the money they save on the times they don't get caught is vastly more than what they lose when they are caught. That's why there is an argument for making the fine as high as possible.

It astounds me on this board in the last few days the number of people who advocate making things easier for fare dodgers and thinking they are treated too harshly. I have never skipped a fare in my life but I'm starting to think I'm in the minority here.

equipping the card with a chip and having detection equipment on the trains and busses for which the chip would come into contact with which would alert to use of the service might be the way forward. then if one doesn't tag on or off the fare can simply be deducted however far they travel. either way long term a new system needs to be found as the penalty fare system isn't working. it will probably do for now as its better then nothing but long term a new solution is needed

lifeandtimes · 08-10-2015 10:12pm

devnull wrote: »

It astounds me on this board in the last few days the number of people who advocate making things easier for fare dodgers and thinking they are treated too harshly. I have never skipped a fare in my life but I'm starting to think I'm in the minority here.

They are not talking about making it easier for fare dodgers, they are talking about fixing the system that effects normal people who normally pay but for some reason or another have been unable too,very different,I pay everyday however wad the victim of a broken machine in that it didn't read my leap card correctly,I looked for assistance and none was available and had to take my train journey as I was under the impression I had paid but low and behold it was found that due to the machine error I had not and now I'm subject to a fine for fare evasion were I tried to pay...I'm not a fare dodger but iv been effected by this

devnull · 08-10-2015 10:20pm

lifeandtimes wrote: »

They are not talking about making it easier for fare dodgers, they are talking about fixing the system that effects normal people who normally pay but for some reason or another have been unable too

But the end result is that it would make it easier for fare dodgers and lead to a higher level of fare evasion so the company are never going to do it because of that.

The numbers who would take advantage of said system would far outweigh the people who are being inconvenienced by the current system.

devnull · 08-10-2015 10:25pm

end of the road wrote: »

equipping the card with a chip and having detection equipment on the trains and busses for which the chip would come into contact with which would alert to use of the service might be the way forward. then if one doesn't tag on or off the fare can simply be deducted however far they travel.

Pray tell me what is better about said system than the current system? The chip detection equipment could fail as well no? It has absolutely zero benefit over the current system because it falls down if the equipment fails and would cost a huge amount to install. This is before you even go into the technical reasons why it just wouldn't work.

And judging by the fact Irish Rail cannot get the 85xx class PIS systems working many years after their delivery, what makes you think that a train would know where it was? Then you have to hope that the GPS works or if you are using Wifi/Phone signals that there is no black spots.

The system would be even more unreliable than you have now. In taking the DART every working day to work for the last 2 years I have never come across a time where I could not tag on or tag off. I come across a train with a non working PIS that doesn't know where it is or is totally turned off almost every time I'm on a Tokyu DART.

Case in point, tonight I saw two 85xx's coupled together with the front one saying Bray, next stop Clontarf Road at Pearse when it was going to Greystones, with the back one saying Malahide next stop Blackrock.

runawaybishop · 08-10-2015 11:16pm

end of the road wrote: »

clearly not

when and where has ireland had TVMS since 1920?

who would be submitting boards posts as evidence anyway?

she did if the working one is at the other platform and say, the lift wasn't working or the footbridge was shut or dangerous.

Whoosh.

Eugene Norman · 09-10-2015 12:01am

devnull wrote: »

That would just encourage people not to tag on even more in the acknowledgement that worst that could happen is that they would just have to pay the fare, best case they won't have to pay at all.

As someone who daily has to travel on a packed dart that is too short for the service it operates on and pays a large sum to Irish Rail for the privilege I would be decreasing the incentive to evade, not encouraging it.

There are barriers everywhere. The cost of not validating when getting on is the maximum fare when getting off. Why would this lead to evasion?

Eugene Norman · 09-10-2015 12:07am

devnull wrote: »

No - you are wrong. As one of the first testers for the LEAP card years ago, I know exactly how it works. If you don't believe me go and register your leap card online and see what it tells you. Fares are deducted and then refunded when you tag off.

Also the balance is stored on the card. There is no way money can be deducted from a card without it coming into contact with a validator, a gate or a ticket machine or a top-up machine. It simply isn't possible ..

It's about having a deterrent as well. If the punishment is little then people are more likely to risk it knowing that even if they get caught several times a year, the money they save on the times they don't get caught is vastly more than what they lose when they are caught. That's why there is an argument for making the fine as high as possible.

It astounds me on this board in the last few days the number of people who advocate making things easier for fare dodgers and thinking they are treated too harshly. I have never skipped a fare in my life but I'm starting to think I'm in the minority here.

I am not advocating fare dodging. The exits have barriers. You pay the maximum fare if you exit without validating when you got on

And I would encourage people to validate on to save money and pay the proper, not maximum fare. But if the incompetents on Irish rail don't have validation working when you get on they can fine you and recover the fare, as well as get the maximum fare when when you exit. If inspected you end up paying more than the fare for your journey when you exit, as well as the fine for not paying the fare, added to the fare. Which is ludicrous.

The op's mother paid 4:70 to exit wherever she went and now has to pay a fine?

end of the road · 09-10-2015 12:12am

devnull wrote: »

In taking the DART every working day to work for the last 2 years I have never come across a time where I could not tag on or tag off.

thats great. however plenty have had problems doing so because of lack of working machines. yes some have lied but there clearly is an issue with working machines and ensuring systems in place in the event of a machine failure. also as you know, irish rail aren't exactly the type to admit when they are wrong. so i'd suggest there are issues, but how big those issues are i can't say.

devnull · 09-10-2015 7:49am

Eugene Norman wrote: »

There are barriers everywhere. The cost of not validating when getting on is the maximum fare when getting off. Why would this lead to evasion?

Conditional Validation Evaders as they are called in the trade.

Someone who does not validate on entry and who has no intention of validating on exit, but carries a smart card just in case there is a ticket inspector who has no intention of tagging off or paying any fare.

Thus the worst it can get for them is they pay 4.70 or if the barriers open or they can tailgate, not at all.

Jon Stark · 09-10-2015 8:12am

the groutch wrote: »

did somebody at Kilbarrack tell her to go ahead?
was there a person at the cash desk that she could have talked to?
or did she just decide herself that she was fine because the leap validator wasn't working?

That's it, let someone be delayed from wherever they're going just because Irish Rail are too cheap to properly man a station and actually have machines that work.

Kilbarrack is my local station and it's in a shocking state. They're trying to completely remove the need for someone to work the desk there without a moment's thought for people who are disabled, elderly or simply anyone who might need assistance.

It's shocking treatment of a station that at rush hour is far busier than Raheny, Harmonstowm and Clontarf.

runawaybishop · 09-10-2015 8:31am

Jon Stark wrote: »

That's it, let someone be delayed from wherever they're going just because Irish Rail are too cheap to properly man a station and actually have machines that work.

Machines break down. There are usually more than one. If checking another machine delays you then you should have left earlier. If you can't be bothered to check another machine then you are entitled to be fined.

runawaybishop · 09-10-2015 8:32am

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I am not advocating fare dodging. The exits have barriers. You pay the maximum fare if you exit without validating when you got on

And I would encourage people to validate on to save money and pay the proper, not maximum fare. But if the incompetents on Irish rail don't have validation working when you get on they can fine you and recover the fare, as well as get the maximum fare when when you exit. If inspected you end up paying more than the fare for your journey when you exit, as well as the fine for not paying the fare, added to the fare. Which is ludicrous.

The op's mother paid 4:70 to exit wherever she went and now has to pay a fine?

You are making it 50%easier to fare dodge.

My Mother Got Fined

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