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Are Irish provinces the most indigenous professional rugby clubs in the world?

  • 24-04-2012 12:37pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭


    With the majority of current squad members being born and raised (or raised from an early age) in their province and with the starting IVs usually featuring only 3 or 4 non provincial born players, are Ireland's provinces one of the most indigenous rugby clubs in professional rugby?

    Clermont and Toulouse are often talked about as having home grown teams but on further inspection quite a lot of their French players are from all over France.

    On a global scale and taking in all other top level sports I can only think of Athletic Bilbao having a more home grown team than the likes of Leinster and Munster.

    Considering our size and playing pool, its highly commendable in todays age of professional sports.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Winters wrote: »
    With the majority of current squad members being born and raised (or raised from an early age) in their province and with the starting IVs usually featuring only 3 or 4 non provincial born players, are Ireland's provinces one of the most indigenous rugby clubs in professional rugby?

    Clermont and Toulouse are often talked about as having home grown teams but on further inspection quite a lot of their French players are from all over France.

    On a global scale and taking in all other top level sports I can only think of Athletic Bilbao having a more home grown team than the likes of Leinster and Munster.

    Considering our size and playing pool, its highly commendable in todays age of professional sports.


    Nearly all S15 teams are made up of indigenous players, more so than the Irish provinces


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    Nearly all S15 teams are made up of indigenous players, more so than the Irish provinces


    Not so sure about that. I'd say players tend to move around a bit more in the Super 15.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    Nearly all S15 teams are made up of indigenous players, more so than the Irish provinces

    Thanks, those are impressive stats in the Super Rugby rosters, especially in SA.

    Perhaps I should revise the claim just to Europe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    South African Currie Cup teams I'd imagine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,079 ✭✭✭Mr.Applepie


    Winters wrote: »
    Thanks, those are impressive stats in the Super Rugby rosters, especially in SA.

    Perhaps I should revise the claim just to Europe.

    I wouldn't be so sure about that.


    Munster:
    WDP
    Botha
    Ronan
    Mafi/Downey
    Lualalalalalalala
    Howlett
    Jones
    Murphy
    Keatley

    All bar the last two would be pushing for the 1st team this season or next. That's 1/2 the team.

    Leinster:
    VDM
    Strauss
    Ross/White
    Thorn
    Reddan/Boss
    Nacewa

    Ulster:
    Afoa
    Court
    Piennar
    Terblanche
    Wannenburg
    Muller
    Diack


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭WeeBushy


    Also there's a lot of Irish players that weren't developed by their current province.

    A full list of province's current 'non indigenous' players:

    Leinster: Auva'a, Berquist, Browne, Cronin, Dundon, Nacewa, Reddan, Boss, Strauss, Ross, Thorn, Van der Merwe, White. 13/40.

    Munster: Borlase, Botha, Chambers (or has he left?), Du Preez, Flannery (born in Galway and first contract was with Connacht. I always thougth he was a true Munsterman!), Jones, Howlett, Mafi, Keatley, Murphy, Ronan. 11/47.

    Ulster: Afoa, Black, Court, D'Arcy, Danielli, Diack, Kyriacou, Muller, Payne, Pienaar, Terblanche, Wannenburg. 12/39.

    Connacht: Ah You, Anderson, Fa'afili, Flavin, Grace, Jarvis, Loxton, Maguire, Matthews, McCarthy, McCrea, McSharry, Moore, Murphy, Naoupu, Nikora, N. O'Connor, O'Donohoe, Ofisa, Reynecke, Rogers, Swift, Vainikolo, Wilkinson, Gannon. 25/37


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭Burgo


    Winters wrote: »
    With the majority of current squad members being born and raised (or raised from an early age) in their province and with the starting IVs usually featuring only 3 or 4 non provincial born players, are Ireland's provinces one of the most indigenous rugby clubs in professional rugby?

    Clermont and Toulouse are often talked about as having home grown teams but on further inspection quite a lot of their French players are from all over France.

    On a global scale and taking in all other top level sports I can only think of Athletic Bilbao having a more home grown team than the likes of Leinster and Munster.

    Considering our size and playing pool, its highly commendable in todays age of professional sports.

    Not really, while a lot of the players in the provinces might be irish they are not necessarily playing for their own province, like ross and reddan from munster, keatley and jones from leinster etc.

    Thanks weebushy! :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭[Jackass]


    I would say highly indigenous, but not excessivley so. Leinster probably have the most local talent in their ranks / starting team, but still with Strauss, Ross, A.N other in second row, Boss / Reddan, Nacewa, there is likely to be 33% non-Leinster men in any given first 15 at the moment.

    I think the biggest threat to Irish rugby as it stands is the IRFU's policy to try and make it MORE indigenous, when you look at teams like Toulouse (15), Racing Metro (18) Clermont (19), Toulon (24), Leicester (12), Northampton (14), Harlequins (7), Saracens (16), Ospreys (10), these numbers in brackets represent NON-UNION qualified players only, not including union qualified players from other clubs / regions, it will be impossible for the likes of Leinster (5), Munster (6) and Ulster (9) to survive long term with LESS foreign players and whatever they can pick up from a limited pool of reserve players from other provinces and local clubs and schools...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,976 ✭✭✭profitius


    [Jackass] wrote: »
    I would say highly indigenous, but not excessivley so. Leinster probably have the most local talent in their ranks / starting team, but still with Strauss, Ross, A.N other in second row, Boss / Reddan, Nacewa, there is likely to be 33% non-Leinster men in any given first 15 at the moment.

    I think the biggest threat to Irish rugby as it stands is the IRFU's policy to try and make it MORE indigenous, when you look at teams like Toulouse (15), Racing Metro (18) Clermont (19), Toulon (24), Leicester (12), Northampton (14), Harlequins (7), Saracens (16), Ospreys (10), these numbers in brackets represent NON-UNION qualified players only, not including union qualified players from other clubs / regions, it will be impossible for the likes of Leinster (5), Munster (6) and Ulster (9) to survive long term with LESS foreign players and whatever they can pick up from a limited pool of reserve players from other provinces and local clubs and schools...

    Leinster has the best academy in Europe. You're always boasting about it so why do they need as many non Irish players as they have now when they're producing so many players? Even Munster and Ulster are starting to produce a supply of players in most positions.

    Meanwhile the Ireland team is short in certain positions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    So Munster and Leinster have been the two most succesful teams in Europe since 2006. Yet you are pointing at high numbers of NQ players in OTHER squads as if its the route to success? No logic in that at all.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    profitius wrote: »
    Leinster has the best academy in Europe. You're always boasting about it so why do they need as many non Irish players as they have now when they're producing so many players? Even Munster and Ulster are starting to produce a supply of players in most positions.

    Meanwhile the Ireland team is short in certain positions.

    Last year Leinster's starting 15 for the HEC Final had 2 NIQ's, one of whom will soon be IQ, and their direct replacements in the Irish team are Best and Bowe, and there is a significant pool of local talent in those positions (wing in particular). I don't really know what you are arguing, maybe I just missed the point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,976 ✭✭✭profitius


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Last year Leinster's starting 15 for the HEC Final had 2 NIQ's, one of whom will soon be IQ, and their direct replacements in the Irish team are Best and Bowe. I don't really know what you are arguing, maybe I just missed the point.

    I'm saying they don't need as many NIQ players as they had before. That stat backs up my point. Their academy is getting better all the time too as are the other academies in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Tox56 wrote: »
    profitius wrote: »
    Leinster has the best academy in Europe. You're always boasting about it so why do they need as many non Irish players as they have now when they're producing so many players? Even Munster and Ulster are starting to produce a supply of players in most positions.

    Meanwhile the Ireland team is short in certain positions.

    Last year Leinster's starting 15 for the HEC Final had 2 NIQ's, one of whom will soon be IQ, and their direct replacements in the Irish team are Best and Bowe, and there is a significant pool of local talent in those positions (wing in particular). I don't really know what you are arguing, maybe I just missed the point.
    That's his point more or less though...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Winters wrote: »
    Clermont and Toulouse are often talked about as having home grown teams but on further inspection quite a lot of their French players are from all over France

    ???

    Not even looking this up...

    At Toulouse there is Vergallo, McAlister, Albacete, Giorgadze (arguably their best player this year), Botha, Sowerby, Burgess and allegedly Caucau.

    At Clermont? Williams, Bennett, Hines, Cudmore, White, Byrne, Paulo, James, Canale, King, Russell, Sivivatu.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭siltirocker


    What I believe people are getting confused over here is counting homegrown as provincial or national.

    Some count Keatley as homegrown others aren't. I believe the OP is referring to lads from the provinces/regions as oppose to nationality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    What I believe people are getting confused over here is counting homegrown as provincial or national.

    Some count Keatley as homegrown others aren't. I believe the OP is referring to lads from the provinces/regions as oppose to nationality.

    Yes, I'm referring to players born and raised in their province. To go expand further, I am looking at the number of players that have come through the academy and stayed at their province throughout the career.

    Compared to other sports, rugby in Ireland is so very unique. For a region the size of 20,000 square km to have the large majority of players to dedicate their sporting career to their region is incredible.

    The question is, how many other teams and sports can claim to be so indigenous?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Winters wrote: »
    The question is, how many other teams and sports can claim to be so indigenous?

    You could count the GAA in there I'd imagine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭[Jackass]


    profitius wrote: »
    Leinster has the best academy in Europe. You're always boasting about it so why do they need as many non Irish players as they have now when they're producing so many players? Even Munster and Ulster are starting to produce a supply of players in most positions.

    Meanwhile the Ireland team is short in certain positions.

    Yes, but my point is the recruitment resources of other teams, in the long term I don't think it's feasable to contend for a European cup every season when you are raiding local schools for players and other teams are raiding world cup squads...Look at teams like Racing or Toloun...if they continue in the same veign, it will be virtually impossible to compete unless there are strategic signings in Irish rugby.

    The most flawed argument is that of the IRFU / presumably yourself, that these signings are ruining Irish rugby, when in fact, without these signings, we wouldn't be competeing for and winning Heineken Cups, Irish players wouldn't be getting exposure to that level of rugby, our best players would find it difficult to turn down teams that would compete for those trophies and most of all, they would not benefit young Irish players as much as they do, completely contrary to the argument that they block Irish players. Rocky at Leinster followed by a new level to Heaslips game followed by the emergence of SOB is a good example.

    If the talent isn't there, it's easy to say the signings filling the gaps are blocking Irish players, but then have Jamie Hagan starting tighthead for Leinster and Stephen Archer at Munster and Tom Court at Ulster and see how long they last in the Heineken Cup...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,976 ✭✭✭profitius


    [Jackass] wrote: »
    Yes, but my point is the recruitment resources of other teams, in the long term I don't think it's feasable to contend for a European cup every season when you are raiding local schools for players and other teams are raiding world cup squads...Look at teams like Racing or Toloun...if they continue in the same veign, it will be virtually impossible to compete unless there are strategic signings in Irish rugby.

    The most flawed argument is that of the IRFU / presumably yourself, that these signings are ruining Irish rugby, when in fact, without these signings, we wouldn't be competeing for and winning Heineken Cups, Irish players wouldn't be getting exposure to that level of rugby, our best players would find it difficult to turn down teams that would compete for those trophies and most of all, they would not benefit young Irish players as much as they do, completely contrary to the argument that they block Irish players. Rocky at Leinster followed by a new level to Heaslips game followed by the emergence of SOB is a good example.

    If the talent isn't there, it's easy to say the signings filling the gaps are blocking Irish players, but then have Jamie Hagan starting tighthead for Leinster and Stephen Archer at Munster and Tom Court at Ulster and see how long they last in the Heineken Cup...

    Its about getting the balance right. Elsom, Nacewa, Thorn etc are excellent signings but theres plenty of poor signings too. Tukola being a recent example of how to waste money.

    You give Racing and Toulon as examples. They've won nothing yet and are filled with mercenaries. Leinster have a better team than those teams.

    As for the props, theres more than Archer, Court and Hagan. Look at all the young props coming through. Yes, at the moment NIQ props are needed but we're getting our act together in bringing through props these days.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    There are plenty of world cup winners playing in Ireland.

    The IRFU are hardly banning NIQs!!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,889 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    [Jackass] wrote: »
    I would say highly indigenous, but not excessivley so. Leinster probably have the most local talent in their ranks / starting team, but still with Strauss, Ross, A.N other in second row, Boss / Reddan, Nacewa, there is likely to be 33% non-Leinster men in any given first 15 at the moment.

    I think the biggest threat to Irish rugby as it stands is the IRFU's policy to try and make it MORE indigenous, when you look at teams like Toulouse (15), Racing Metro (18) Clermont (19), Toulon (24), Leicester (12), Northampton (14), Harlequins (7), Saracens (16), Ospreys (10), these numbers in brackets represent NON-UNION qualified players only, not including union qualified players from other clubs / regions, it will be impossible for the likes of Leinster (5), Munster (6) and Ulster (9) to survive long term with LESS foreign players and whatever they can pick up from a limited pool of reserve players from other provinces and local clubs and schools...

    Ulster don't have 9 Non Union Irish qualified players. Are you counting Irish qual. players from abroad? - Court, Black, D'Arcy, Diack. Next year - barring another signing - they will have Afoa, Muller, Pienaar and Payne as NIEs, one of whom will become IQ'd.

    Kyriacou, Danielli, Wannenberg and Terblanche are leaving....hopefully with Heineken Winners Medals. They have all been fantastic servants in their own ways, have added tremendously to the team and the steady rise of the team. It just shows that the accountants, solicitors and bankers that run the IRFU know feck all squared about team building.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,200 ✭✭✭BoarHunter


    In Academy standards there are a lot of players from Toulouse who play now in different teams of the TOP 14 such as Wisniewski, Huget, Mermoz and many others who could make a starting XV for the Irish provinces. Toulouse is a fantastic academy, I should take the time to look at that but it's impressive to see the number of class players they produce.
    Bourgoin use to be the nursery of talents before... less now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    jacothelad wrote: »
    It just shows that the accountants, solicitors and bankers that run the IRFU know feck all squared about team building.
    The majority of these so-called "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (don't forget the doctors, William...) have all played rugby union to a high standard and also run the professional game, bringing it to where it is now.

    You're overreacting to the player succession policy that will be implemented. As if overseas players, non-project players were being banned altogether. They're not. There will be five per province if each province takes up its full entitlement in signings.

    Relax, not everyone is out to get Ulster. There is a decent enough showing amongst the "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (not forgetting the doctors, of course) from the province on any committee you care to name and blame.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭leftleg


    JustinDee wrote: »
    The majority of these so-called "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (don't forget the doctors, William...) have all played rugby union to a high standard and also run the professional game, bringing it to where it is now.

    You're overreacting to the player succession policy that will be implemented. As if overseas players, non-project players were being banned altogether. They're not. There will be five per province if each province takes up its full entitlement in signings.

    Relax, not everyone is out to get Ulster. There is a decent enough showing amongst the "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (not forgetting the doctors, of course) from the province on any committee you care to name and blame.

    No disrespect Justin but your impartiality on anything IRFU is well documented and while i agree to the main on what you say; it must be taken with a pinch of salt as these "accountants, solicitors, bankers and doctors" are paying your wages and possibly trolling your comments on boards :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    leftleg wrote: »
    No disrespect Justin but . . . etc

    Less on the poster, 'leftleg'.
    Cheers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    we also shouldn't overlook that we are comparing a province to towns in other countries

    Leinster is a sizeable part of the island, Munster contains decent sized places like limerick and cork

    clermont or toulouse is one town with a hinterland and lots of other clubs in its immediate area


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Less on the poster, 'leftleg'.
    Cheers.

    Less of the backseat modding... ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,889 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    JustinDee wrote: »
    The majority of these so-called "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (don't forget the doctors, William...) have all played rugby union to a high standard and also run the professional game, bringing it to where it is now.

    You're overreacting to the player succession policy that will be implemented. As if overseas players, non-project players were being banned altogether. They're not. There will be five per province if each province takes up its full entitlement in signings.

    Relax, not everyone is out to get Ulster. There is a decent enough showing amongst the "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (not forgetting the doctors, of course) from the province on any committee you care to name and blame.


    Just a bit of internet hyperbole to make a point JD. A bit of licence to stir debate. The player limit is right, the way it is being foisted on teams is wrong. Perhaps the coaches and senior players at the Provinces might just be in a better position than some of Das Kommitte.... (also a joke..in case you take it literally. Not everyone is out to get you just because the style is argumentative).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭leftleg


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Less on the poster, 'leftleg'.
    Cheers.

    I didn't attack you Justin, just made a statement and began the post by asking that you not take it out of context. Sorry if you deem it an attack on you, it wasn't what i was trying to get at. Either way apologies, alot of your posts are fortright and absolutely on the money so please don't take the post to heart because its not an attack on you as a poster. Cheers and again sorry again.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,815 ✭✭✭✭emmet02


    JustinDee wrote: »
    The majority of these so-called "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (don't forget the doctors, William...) have all played rugby union to a high standard and also run the professional game, bringing it to where it is now.

    You're overreacting to the player succession policy that will be implemented. As if overseas players, non-project players were being banned altogether. They're not. There will be five per province if each province takes up its full entitlement in signings.

    Relax, not everyone is out to get Ulster. There is a decent enough showing amongst the "accountants, solicitors and bankers" (not forgetting the doctors, of course) from the province on any committee you care to name and blame.

    Being a soldier doesn't guarantee you as a capable general.


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