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Problems with Direct Debit

  • 02-02-2012 5:01pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭


    My IPSO complaint has been escalated. Should have my refund very soon.

    Literally, minutes after IPSO escalated my complaint, I get a phone call from BOI. Wow I thought. That's fast. She says she is from BOI Accounts department. She asked me to give her a quick rundown of my issue. This must be the 10th time I have told my story to BOI in the past 2 or 3 days. She then asked me to go into a BOI branch to fill in a form. Oh no. I just knew this was going to go down hill from here. She hasn't heard from IPSO. I don't know who referred her to me.

    I tell her that I already filled in the form today. She sayd that was grand and it should hit her desk in the morning. I ask her two questions <paraphrasing> "How long after you receive the document until I get my money" and "Have you heard from IPSO".

    "2 to 3 weeks, depending on when 3 refund the bank" and "No" where here answers.

    Head hits wall many times and tell her to expect a call.


«13456712

Comments

  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    My IPSO complaint has been escalated. Should have my refund very soon.

    Literally, minutes after IPSO escalated my complaint, I get a phone call from BOI. Wow I thought. That's fast. She says she is from BOI Accounts department. She asked me to give her a quick rundown of my issue. This must be the 10th time I have told my story to BOI in the past 2 or 3 days. She then asked me to go into a BOI branch to fill in a form. Oh no. I just knew this was going to go down hill from here. She hasn't heard from IPSO. I don't know who referred her to me.

    I tell her that I already filled in the form today. She sayd that was grand and it should hit her desk in the morning. I ask her two questions <paraphrasing> "How long after you receive the document until I get my money" and "Have you heard from IPSO".

    "2 to 3 weeks, depending on when 3 refund the bank" and "No" where here answers.

    Head hits wall many times and tell her to expect a call.



    Some food for thought:
    Direct Debit is normally considered as the most efficient method of payment for recurring payments. There are considerable benefits for all participants in the Scheme: for Originators, Payers, and Banks.
    If it is established that an unauthorised Direct Debit was charged to your account, you are
    guaranteed an immediate refund by your Bank of the amount so charged
    where you notify your Bank without undue delay on becoming aware of the unauthorised Direct Debit

    The above is a quote from the so called dd guarantee which is provided by your BANK!!!!!!

    In the light of the fiasco that you have experienced from your bank and Three how can anyone accept the dd scheme as being fit for purpose?

    How could any intelligent person put any trust in such a mess?
    The Direct Debit Scheme depends upon mutual trust between all parties concerned.

    All quotes are taken from the direct debit scheme rules which a customer should surely be able to take for granted that senior staff in banks and in companies' billing departments will be very familiar with.

    I am sure you will enjoy this one too: (from the IPSO Annual Review 2010!)

    IPSO continues to work very closely with sponsoring banks
    and originators to ensure that all complaints and
    compliance issues are responded to in a timely and
    satisfactory manner

    I wonder when they will get around to issuing Bank of Ireland with a briefing on the so called DD guarantee?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    RangeR wrote: »
    Literally, minutes after IPSO escalated my complaint, I get a phone call from BOI. Wow I thought. That's fast. She says she is from BOI Accounts department. She asked me to give her a quick rundown of my issue. This must be the 10th time I have told my story to BOI in the past 2 or 3 days. She then asked me to go into a BOI branch to fill in a form. Oh no. I just knew this was going to go down hill from here. She hasn't heard from IPSO. I don't know who referred her to me.
    "2 to 3 weeks, depending on when 3 refund the bank" and "No" where here answers.

    Received a call, 50 minutes ago, from this same woman in the accounts department. Her manager told her to refund me today. She said it may be within the hour but definitely today.

    Thank you IPSO for your intervention.

    Partial Result.

    When refund comes through, to push forward with formal complaint to FinReg.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Refund has hit my account


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Hmmm, there has been absolutely no feedback, whatsoever on my formal complaints from either IPSO nor BOI. BOI's complaints procedure does state, however, that they will acknowledge a complaint within five business days. That five business days ends on Thursday. I'm not sure of IPSO's complaint procedure but I'll give them the standard ten business days to respond.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    Hmmm, there has been absolutely no feedback, whatsoever on my formal complaints from either IPSO nor BOI. BOI's complaints procedure does state, however, that they will acknowledge a complaint within five business days. That five business days ends on Thursday. I'm not sure of IPSO's complaint procedure but I'll give them the standard ten business days to respond.

    Please keep us up to date on 'progress'.

    Your experiences to date show what a woeful system the dd is from the billpayer's point of view.

    The complaint's system is simply an old pals' act where nothing ever happens.

    The lack of transparency in the system is quite shocking.
    IRECC will investigate the issue on your behalf, and will always respond to you within 7 working days.

    http://www.ipso.ie/section/x/File/Direct%20Debit/DD_Complaints_Procedure_Final.pdf

    Its amazing to think that the dd system has been in place since 1967 and a major bank doesn't know how to respond to one of the basic entitlements in the so called dd guarantee. How does one go about complaining about such a farce?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Since my two formal complaints, one to each I PSO and BOI, so far it's been [in business days]...

    IPSO : 6 business days [4 days left to acknowledge]
    BOI : 5 business days. They should have acknowledged my complaint by today. Nothing in the post and no phone calls received.

    I rang BOI complaints department and spoke to the woman, Rep 1, I made the initial complaint with. She was shocked that I hadn't received any correspondence. The person [relevant department] that she referred me to, Rep 2, was out sick for a day or two but she then referred Rep 3 to deal with the issue. Rep 2 confirmed to Rep 1 that this referral had happened and that I should have received a call on Monday.

    Rep 1 is chasing this up.

    * Real names not included as per charter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Jesus ****ing Christ, Bank of Ireland BOI have no idea what they are doing. I just received a call from Rep 5 to discuss my complaint. In one way, tried to lead the conversation saying that I have been refunded so would I like to close the complaint!!!!

    The other issue of the complaint, she says, is how the BOI 365 staff were unable to help, or even know about, the Direct Debit Scheme. She said that I should have contacted my branch. I told her that if this was the case, 365 Agent should have mentioned this on the first phone call. I'm an ordinary Joe Public who rang his banks national customer line. I'm not meant to know how the internal bank structures their operation nor should I have to.

    She also said [many times] that 365 Team Lead rang me back to advise me that I contact my branch. I told her that the call from 365 Team Lead [with that specific detail] never happened. I don't remember getting that call but in fairness, I spoke to MANY people over the two to five days. More than I should have had to talk to.

    Rep 5 said that from her side, there is nothing more that she could do and that I should take it up with my branch. "Hang on, I said, there seems to be a lot of miss communication". She agreed. I said that I rang the BOI national complaint line. REP1 took basic details from me and said Rep 1 would call me back. It appears now that Rep 5 took those basic details to be all that was wrong.

    I, in no uncertain terms, informed her that I want answers to an apparent system failure within the industry and BOI's roll in it AND how it related to my private bank account. I also told there that what I told her in this phone call was only a tiny portion of the problem and I wanted to discuss it in a wider fashion with the person finally put in charge of my complaint.

    She is referring the complaint back to Rep 1.

    BOI, You're a ****ing joke and a disgrace of a bank.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Even I could not have imagined that an entire bank could be so inept. I am amazed that from your contact recounted here that it would seem ipso have not been onto them to get their act sorted out. By the way the dd scheme rules constantly refer to your bank as distinct from a branch.

    As the banks urge customers to use the phone service I consider it perfectly reasonable to expect the staff there to know the rules of the scheme and the banks' obligations under the scheme.

    It is appalling that bill payers are pushed into such a woeful scheme and a major bank at hq level haven't a clue about their obligations.

    I wonder exactly how this lot function and what sort of reports they produce?
    I think it's safe to assume they don't spend too much time talking to customers!

    The Board of IRECC will appoint an advisory committee, to be known as the “Direct Debit Committee”, to do the following:
    1. To advise the Board on all aspects of the Direct Debit Scheme
    2. To promote the use of Direct Debits as a payment mechanism
    3. To monitor Direct Debit operations
    4. To monitor compliance with the Scheme Rules
    5. To report to the IRECC Board as necessary, but not less than once per annum.

    It would be absolutely fascinating to hear the official explanation as to how they monitor compliance with scheme rules as it is basically impossible to do this even if they actually wanted to.

    It would be very interesting to see the reports produced for 5 above. It would be even more interesting to find out where the material for the report was obtained.

    Maybe you should drop them a line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    dub45 wrote: »
    It would be very interesting to see the reports produced for 5 above. It would be even more interesting to find out where the material for the report was obtained.

    Maybe you should drop them a line.

    Are IPSO a government body?
    Can I FOI that info?
    If not, is that info available to GenPop?


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    Are IPSO a government body?
    Can I FOI that info?
    If not, is that info available to GenPop?

    I have always presumed that IPSO are funded by the banks.

    IPSO appear to think that it's ok to operate with a Masonic level of secrecy. As an example the dd manager does not want his name given on boards even though IPSO themselves have put it into the public domain.

    They have contempt for the general public in my experience - if they didn't wouldn't they be making sure that bank staff knew the rules of the dd scheme at the very least and not operating complaints schemes that make Comreg look like a raging tiger by comparison? As far as I am aware there is no information at all in print on the dd scheme for the general public or indeed for bank staff. They have had more than enough time to educate banks and companies - after all it's been going since 1967!!!!

    When I wrote to the Chief Executive of IPSO several years ago with various queries about the dd my letter was ignored completely. It took a registered letter and a threat of bad publicity to get a response!

    So I would say that you have about as much chance of getting a copy of one of those report as .......

    Anyway you could write it yourself I am sure:):)


    By the way if you ask them for a copy of one of those reports you could always quote this from their website
    The IPSO board has a broad membership so as to represent fairly, the different types and size of IPSO’s members and other payment stakeholders. The board of directors includes three independent non-executive director positions as well as an independent non-executive chairman. The decision of the Board to appoint a wholly independent chairman demonstrates the board’s commitment to transparency and recognition of the increasing need to involve non-bank interests in IPSO decision making. The Central Bank of Ireland, as regulator of payments systems in Ireland, has been represented at IPSO board meetings since IPSO was established in 1997.

    My emphasis.


    When will they have a few aggressive bill payers on that board? And what exactly are those central bank people doing there? Surely they cannot be happy with the lack of basic knowledge of such an important scheme - that's of course if they know about it?

    By the way don't forget Three in all of this - Are IPSO frantically following up their non compliance?????


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Related but different company. Myt business account just had a DD of €850~ from Meteor. Just rang my branch and hope I don't have to run through the same hoops. For this amount, they WILL fix this today.

    Jeebus Criost.

    EDIT : I'm not even a Meteor Customer!!!!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    One of the Meteor Team Leads of CC just rang. He suggested that nothing is going to happen on their side unless I call the guards.

    Now, I don't want this to sound the wrong way. He wasn't saying it in a bad way. I already told him that I wasn't looking for a refund, as ban were looking after that. I just wanted to know how my mandate was re-activated. Actually, they shouldn't have had a mandate at all. I haven't been a customer of their in years.

    So he was saying it in a helpful way, in that it was Meteor policy. He wasn't giving me the PFO :)

    Three, I'm sorry to dig up a old thread but I didn't know where else to post. Maybe this is more suitable to Banking forum?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Hmmm, BOI Naas are not guaranteeing me a refund by COB today.

    As both Meteor and BOI Naas have advised me to call the Guards, that's what I'm doing now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Decided against calling the guards. They have better things to be doing. I'll drop in to them on the way home instead, for a friendly 2 minute chat.

    As this isn't "really" a criminal matter, I suppose the SCC is the way to go.

    Just rang up to make a formal complaint about the shambles, AND to see where my other formal complaint went to from February. After a long time on hold, it was suggested [exceptionally apologetically] that I send the complaints in writing.

    I told her, in no uncertain terms, that I would now be sending in three.

    One for February unathorised DD
    One for today's unathorised DD
    And one against the complaints department for, apparently not giving a **** to follow up on my complaint, using their own complaints procedure.

    She DID say, however, that she would get onto Naas now to make sure the money was refunded today.

    Future Reference :
    BOI Group Formal Complaints : 1850 75 33 57
    BOI 365 Dublin number : 014044000 [rather than ringing 0818]


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    ComReg, exceptionally helpful. Took all of my details, explained what will happen eand within what timeframes. Pretty much took ownership of the issue.

    They suggested to also contact the Data Protection Commissioner and National Consumer Agency and Financial Regulator.

    Rang Data Protection Commissioner. They just won'pt take the complaint over the phone. SNail or EMail only. Doing that now.

    Will ring the NCA later. Have to get SOME work done.
    Not going to Financial Regulator just yet. I have to exhaust the Group Complaints procedure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Just had a very good chat with the person in charge of my complaint in BOI Group Complaints.

    I'll summarise:

    I re-iterated to her that I want a copy [or recording] of the mandate that I signed or agreed to. Eventually, she said that she couldn't get it. She asked in BOI Group DD and they pretty much stone walled her but gave her some info and I must say, this is shocking.

    The guts of it are this. I got my branch to cancel the mandate. If Meteor try to put forward another payment, it will not go through. However, this block only remains in place for 2 months. If Meteor present a payment on the same mandate after two months, for ANY amount, it will be honoured. The bank can't stop it. I can't stop it. EVER.

    There is absolutely NO checks done by the bank on suspect mandates. It is 100% the honour system. The originator [Meteor in this case] promises that they have done all necessary checks on the person and that the bank details are their own. Now, we all know that this isn't the case. You just have to turn up to any network retail store with a utility bill and photo ID and you will get a phone contract. You just provide Bank Account Number and Sort Code.

    I don't know how she got the following information, whether it was from Meteor or someone in Group DD but she obtained the name on the mandate and a unique reference. The name is not mine nor anyone I know. Either there was an clerical error on Meteors side or someone used my bank account details. This flies in the face of the "due diligence" incumbent on Meteor, or any company.

    As this is now looking like fraud, I will be advising the Guards later today.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Complaint sent to DPC


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Just got off the phone with NCA. At this stage it has gone past their remit but gave me loads of advice on how to proceed. Good stuff.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    First formal complaint sent, as directed by NCA, to careline@boimail.com. This is in relation the the Three un-authorised direct debit.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭whiterebel


    I don't know is it fair to be putting all this on a 3 forum? They take enough flak over their own mistakes as it is, never mind being lumped in with BOI/Meteor......


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    I agree. I'll ask for it to be moved to Banking


  • Registered Users Posts: 430 ✭✭lil5


    RangeR wrote: »
    Three, I'm sorry to dig up a old thread but I didn't know where else to post. Maybe this is more suitable to Banking forum?

    As RangeR suggested earlier it might be more suited to the Banking forum (or maybe Consumer Issues?) as it's not a Three issue anymore.

    But it's certainly an enlightening tale and I wonder if it is coincidence that the DD's were caused by mobile providers.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    This just shows yet again what a woeful system the direct debit system is.

    It also shows that the direct debit guarantee is a lie pure and simple.
    You can cancel the Direct Debit Instruction by writing in good time to your bank

    You cannot cancel a dd with finality. A dd can be reinstated by simply changing a number.

    As it takes a deliberate action to resubmit a dd I believe that any company doing this is attempting to steal and surely is also in breach of the date protection act as in cancelling the dd the customer has specifically withdrawn permission for the company to use personal data.

    IPSO have never sought legal advice on this behaviour which is surely shocking.

    And no action will be taken against any company which reinstates a dd.

    It also shows how weak the banking system is in that a bank cannot guarantee the integrity of a customer's account.

    Under the rules of the dd scheme:
    Paying Banks:
    o must adhere to the Rules of the Scheme
    o must put in place processes which will ensure that unauthorised, refused and/or cancelled
    Direct Debits are intercepted and returned immediately on presentation

    o must promptly present indemnity claims arising under or pursuant to the Scheme
    o must assist its customer, to the extent practicable, in the resolution of disputes arising under or
    pursuant to the Scheme
    o must inform the Sponsoring Bank if an Originator is not adhering to the Rules of the Scheme

    The processes required at point two above are not in place. This is shocking.

    The scheme has been in place since 1967. Central Bank representatives are supposed to attend board meetings of IPSO. The so called Direct Debit Guarantee is unworkable and deceives people into thinking their accounts are safe and yet basic processes required under the scheme rules are not in place.

    Companies can and behave with impunity knowing that no matter what they do there are no consequences for them. Bank staff at all levels are shockingly ignorant of the rules of the scheme. There is no effective complaints system.

    The only one ever penalised under the scheme of course is Joe Soap. Try missing a dd and see how much it costs you!


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Second formal complaint sent, as directed by NCA, to careline@boimail.com. This is in relation the the Meteor un-authorised direct debit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Forwarded on second formal complaint to IPSO. I told them that I Feel that the Direct Debit Scheme is a shambles. Also told them that I'll be informing the Gardaí and the Financial Regulator.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    Second formal complaint sent, as directed by NCA, to careline@boimail.com. This is in relation the the Meteor un-authorised direct debit.

    It would be very interesting to ask Bank of Ireland why the processes required above are not in place. I wonder does anyone in any of the banks even know of this requirement? Why do IPSO not insist on it? After all the banks have had 45 years to get them in place!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭Oceans12


    shocking stuff..... just cancelled all my DD's and going to open a new account, with totally new account number, thats the only way really to be sure! this wont happen ...

    just queried the above with the bank and apparently even if bank account is closed bank will pay out on a DD!

    and chase customer for the money!


    this cannot be true?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Three[:]Patrick, I apologise for the continuance of this thread. I have requested it to be moved out of your remit.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Oceans12 wrote: »
    shocking stuff..... just cancelled all my DD's and going to open a new account, with totally new account number, thats the only way really to be sure! this wont happen ...

    And of course don't use the dd system but that is virtually impossible with so many companies insisting on it as a method of payment.

    It is instructive that several bank employees have told me that they would never use the dd system! One as recently as last week - I wonder why?:rolleyes:


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  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Oceans12 wrote: »
    shocking stuff..... just cancelled all my DD's and going to open a new account, with totally new account number, thats the only way really to be sure! this wont happen ...

    just queried the above with the bank and apparently even if bank account is closed bank will pay out on a DD!

    and chase customer for the money!



    this cannot be true?

    That should not happen but sadly it demonstrates what Ranger has already experienced and documented in the thread - the appalling lack of knowledge of bank staff (even at Corporate level)of the dd system. And imagine under the dd system your bank (the paying bank) are supposed to be looking after your interests and affording you support!

    It is quite incredible that the Central Bank are a party to this ongoing farce through their abject passivity in supposedly regulating IPSO.


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